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2013 NBA Finals |OT| The "Big 3" looks to hang another banner... against the Heat

N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Stare at this image:

170992005.jpg


with this song playing in the background:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4C1ZQKmw4
 
N

Nightstick11

Banned
Black Mamba said:
KG won 51 games with this team in his prime:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2003.html

He had to go on the ROAD in the 1st round against the 3 time defending NBA champion Lakers.

But It's all KG's fault he couldn't carry Terrell Brandon and Wally Szerbiak against the 3 time champs on the road.

right....

Oh, and he put up 27/16/5/2/2 on 52% in that series!
Click to expand...

That was one season out of like 8. Also, I protest strongly the retconning of KG's supporting cast as jobbers. If you're going to count Nash as one of Dirk's superstar teammates (if i recall, nash averaged like 6/6 in the 04 playoffs), we get to pin chauncey billups to KG's cast. Also, KG played with prime Marbury, and All-Star Terrell Brandon. 1/8 for first-round exits is unacceptable although I concede McHale's fucked up Joe Smith signing fucking up KG.

Still, KG-Ray-Pierce were the proto-blueprint for jabroni candyasses to huddle together and cling for warmth in the face of the Pax San Antonio-Los Angeles. Can't respect the Heat, can't respect then Celtics.

On the other hand, Dirk is a part of the only one-superstar team to win since Olajuwon. Guy's goy testes the size of boulders.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
Black Mamba said:
I'm not ignoring it. But you're too focused on it.

First off, they never were in their primes together. Second, in the first 3 years together, they made 2 Finals and really one didn't happened because KG blew out his knee. So 2 for 2.

So KG, given talent, made it to the Finals both years he had it.

Yeah, I agree, the 2008 Boston team was the best team either player played on. So what?

We're talking who is the better player, yes? KG was better at almost every year at the same age as Dirk. It's only debatable at age 32 and 33.

KG at 28 vs Dirk at 28? no contest. Kg's entire career vs Dirk? no contest.

KG is simply the better all-around player. KG's prime was as good, if not better, on offense as Dirk's. But KG's defense is top 10 all time.


Dirk IS an incredible player. But he isn't a better player than KG over their careers.
Click to expand...

He is. KG was never the offensive player Dirk was. Mainly because Dirk is a hell of a three point shooter and a great free throw shooter. I have no idea what we're arguing here. Dirk has played with less talent and has an MVP and a Finals MVP. That's the end of the argument there. He never had to band together with two other all stars to win a ring either.

EDIT: KG has NEVER been as good on offense as Dirk. That is complete lunacy and it made me laugh out loud.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Vahagn said:
I just don't think you can definitively say a guys good enough to lead his team to a chip until he does it. Players Wilt (KG was known for this), they struggle, they sometimes can lead you to the finals but can't get you over the hump like Shaq in the 90's or Kidd at the turn of the century.

Maybe KG does it with better teammates, maybe he doesn't. That's why doing it is worth so much. It's why cats who think 3 chips = 5 chips are so wrong IMO, especially in the modern era.

The narrative on Dirk was that he just wasn't quite good enough and it was true, he wasn't. Not until he grew and improved. He had the more talented team plenty of times in a playoff series, or the upper hand plenty of times and couldn't pull it out.

KG is better than Dirk because he played a two way game better than Dirk played a one way game. But to go into hypotheticals with a guy who hasn't proven it I don't think is fair to the guys who have.
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But KG did lead the Czzz to the title. I know Pierce got MVP because he beat the shit out of Luke Walton and Space Cadet, but KG was their best player that year and run.

But fine. Like I said, it's my opinion on the matter.

Also, KG stopped wilting a long time ago. Do you remember the '04 series with Lakers? KG was UNREAL in that series. He made a billion turnaround jumpers. I had fucking nightmares all week. Cassell getting hurt saved the Lakers and Kareem Rush's miracle moment...

He is. KG was never the offensive player Dirk was. Mainly because Dirk is a hell of a three point shooter and a great free throw shooter. I have no idea what we're arguing here. Dirk has played with less talent and has an MVP and a Finals MVP. That's the end of the argument there. He never had to band together with two other all stars to win a ring either.
Click to expand...

Averaged 27/15/5. Never the offensive player Dirk was. LMAO.

Dirk was never the playmaker KG was. KG is a power forward who averages 5 assists per game. Do you know how many PFs have done that in NBA history? Or in the playoffs?

You're only looking at points. You're ignoring play creating, assists, screening.
 
C

cashman

Banned
ThisWreckage said:
That's fine, but Dirk has NEVER played with players like Pierce and Allen. Dirk has NEVER had a legitimate second option in his career. You're completely ignoring the fact that KG played with two other first ballot hall of famers!
Click to expand...

Even I can say that I was mavs fan back when they the trio of Dirk Nash and Finley.

edit: I feel even worse for Duncan after I found out what his wife did to him.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
I sometimes wish that someone would make an all-time list that took account player influence just to see Russell at #1 and KG in the top 5. Almost every big man in AAU wanted/wants to play like KG since KG got to the NBA.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
But KG did lead the Czzz to the title. I know Pierce got MVP because he beat the shit out of Luke Walton and Space Cadet, but KG was their best player that year and run.

But fine. Like I said, it's my opinion on the matter.

Also, KG stopped wilting a long time ago. Do you remember the '04 series with Lakers? KG was UNREAL in that series. He made a billion turnaround jumpers. I had fucking nightmares all week. Cassell getting hurt saved the Lakers and Kareem Rush's miracle moment...



Averaged 27/15/5. Never the offensive player Dirk was. LMAO.

Dirk was never the playmaker KG was. KG is a power forward who averages 5 assists per game. Do you know how many PFs have done that in NBA history? Or in the playoffs?

You're only looking at points. You're ignoring play creating, assists, screening.
Click to expand...

That C's team was the best collection of 3 equal superstars I've ever seen. KG didn't lead that team in the way a traditional alpha does. He infused it with a defensive culture and intensity but the talent level of those 3 guys at that point in their careers was 1a 1b 1c.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
I wonder if Wreckage ever watched KG in Minnesota.

KG's game in Boston is completely different than the game he had in Minnesota. He changed his style of play even more dramatically than Kidd did these last few years.

KG ran his team's entire offense in Minnesota. Like I said, his prime was wasted and very few people saw it because of where he was and how bad his teams were.

That C'a team was the best collection of 3 equal superstars I've ever seen. KG didn't lead that team in the way a traditional alpha does. He infused it with a defensive culture and intensity but the talent level of those 3 guys at that point in their careers was 1a 1b 1c.
Click to expand...

Offensively, I agree, but when you throw in defense KG was their best player and to me it wasn't close that year. People forget, but the knock on Ray was he couldn't defend. And that team was an all-time defensive team.
 
F

FullMetalx117

Member
Remember this?
JORDAN PLAYS his new favorite trivia game, asking which current players could be nearly as successful in his era. "Our era," he says over and over again, calling modern players soft, coddled and ill-prepared for the highest level of the game. This is personal to him, since he'll be compared to this generation, and since he has to build a franchise with this generation's players.

"I'll give you a hint," he says. "I can only come up with four."

He lists them: LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki.

Then again Jordan really isn't that great at scouting talent.
 
T

Tom Penny

Member
Vahagn said:
That C's team was the best collection of 3 equal superstars I've ever seen. KG didn't lead that team in the way a traditional alpha does. He infused it with a defensive culture and intensity but the talent level of those 3 guys at that point in their careers was 1a 1b 1c.
Click to expand...

They weren't even in their prime.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
KG hasn't demanded a double team in a decade. And people are saying he's the same offensive player as Dirk? Laughable. Even in the Heat had to double team him in the Finals and it didn't work. Dirk has the complete offensive skillset because he's a clutch free throw shooter, a great three point shooter, he can post up and shoot over defenders, he can pick and pop, etc. It's apples and oranges. Dirk has been his team's go to offensive player for many, many years now. In Boston, KG has been relegated to a jump shooter and a guy that occasionally gets offensive rebounds. That is a big difference. Dallas' entire offensive system has always been built around Dirk.

And yes, I watched KG play in Minnesota because I'm 29 years old. It is laughable to suggest that KG was ever the offensive player Dirk has been nearly his whole career. Dirk averaged nearly 18 points coming off of a major injury last year.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Tom Penny said:
They weren't even in their prime.
Click to expand...

Pretty damn close. All 3 were franchise guys getting you 25 or so a game and All Stars. They weren't in their prime like the Heat Big 3 but they were far closer to it than Hakeem/Barkeley/Pippen were for example


ThisWreckage said:
KG hasn't demanded a double team in a decade. And people are saying he's the same offensive player as Dirk? Laughable. Even in the Heat had to double team him in the Finals and it didn't work. Dirk has the complete offensive skillset because he's a clutch free throw shooter, a great three point shooter, he can post up and shoot over defenders, he can pick and pop, etc. It's apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on the general point here, but it's clear you don't watch KG play. He can absolutely do all of those things really well. And can even hit uncovered 3's although not like Dirk.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ThisWreckage said:
KG hasn't demanded a double team in a decade. And people are saying he's the same offensive player as Dirk? Laughable. Even in the Heat had to double team him in the Finals and it didn't work. Dirk has the complete offensive skillset because he's a clutch free throw shooter, a great three point shooter, he can post up and shoot over defenders, he can pick and pop, etc. It's apples and oranges.
Click to expand...

Dude, are you talking about KG today or his career? Because no one can figure it out.

Of course Dirk is better offensively right now. He's also not 36...


If you had the chance to draft a 20 year old KG or Dirk, knowing what you know about what they become, I think you have to take KG every time.

Again, no Knock on Dirk. TD > KG > Dirk >>>>>>> everyone else at PF the last 15 years.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
Black Mamba said:
I wonder if Wreckage ever watched KG in Minnesota.

KG's game in Boston is completely different than the game he had in Minnesota. He changed his style of play even more dramatically than Kidd did these last few years.

KG ran his team's entire offense in Minnesota. Like I said, his prime was wasted and very few people saw it because of where he was and how bad his teams were.



Offensively, I agree, but when you throw in defense KG was their best player and to me it wasn't close that year. People forget, but the knock on Ray was he couldn't defend. And that team was an all-time defensive team.
Click to expand...

Thibs makes great defensive teams out of Bulls 3rd stringers. KG was a huge part of it, but that was mainly Thibs schemes.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
Black Mamba said:
Dude, are you talking about KG today or his career? Because no one can figure it out.

Of course Dirk is better offensively right now. He's also not 36...


If you had the chance to draft a 20 year old KG or Dirk, knowing what you know about what they become, I think you have to take KG every time.

Again, no Knock on Dirk. TD > KG > Dirk >>>>>>> everyone else at PF the last 15 years.
Click to expand...

I'd take Dirk every time. Because he won a ring as the alpha dog and was the Finals MVP.
 
B

Branduil

Member
Claiming KG was ever offensively on the level of 2011 playoffs Dirk is simply ridiculous. That's not a knock on KG, but he was never a dominant scorer.

KG for his career is a 19/11 player in the playoffs on 52% TS. Dirk is 26/10 on 58% TS, which is kind of insane.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ThisWreckage said:
KG hasn't demanded a double team in a decade. And people are saying he's the same offensive player as Dirk? Laughable. Even in the Heat had to double team him in the Finals and it didn't work. Dirk has the complete offensive skillset because he's a clutch free throw shooter, a great three point shooter, he can post up and shoot over defenders, he can pick and pop, etc. It's apples and oranges. Dirk has been his team's go to offensive player for many, many years now. In Boston, KG has been relegated to a jump shooter and a guy that occasionally gets offensive rebounds. That is a big difference. Dallas' entire offensive system has always been built around Dirk.

And yes, I watched KG play in Minnesota because I'm 29 years old. It is laughable to suggest that KG was ever the offensive player Dirk has been nearly his whole career. Dirk averaged nearly 18 points coming off of a major injury last year.
Click to expand...

Again, because your mind is one-tracked and it focuses only on scoring. Not creating plays for others, not setting screens, not getting O-boards.

And you seem to only focus on KG in Boston, after he turned 31. His 13th year in the league...

Claiming KG was ever offensively on the level of 2011 playoffs Dirk is simply ridiculous. That's not a knock on KG, but he was never a dominant scorer.

KG for his career is a 19/11 player in the playoffs on 52% TS. Dirk is 26/10 on 58% TS, which is kind of insane
Click to expand...


27/16/5. '04.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
Branduil said:
Claiming KG was ever offensively on the level of 2011 playoffs Dirk is simply ridiculous. That's not a knock on KG, but he was never a dominant scorer.

KG for his career is a 19/11 player in the playoffs on 52% TS. Dirk is 26/10 on 58% TS, which is kind of insane.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Dirk is one of the best offensive NBA players in the history of the game. Very efficient.

You know all of those wide open threes Peja, Terry, Barrea, etc. were getting during the Mavs Finals run? That was because of Dirk kicking out of double teams. So no, I am not solely focusing on scoring. The offense runs through Dirk. The offense is essetially Dirk. It's been years since the same could be said about KG.
 
L

lawlohwhat

Banned
Vire said:
At least he has a Divorce proceeding to look forward to.
Click to expand...

I like getting jobber worked up like anyone else but be smarter with your drive bys.

Congrats heat gaf, sorry your fanbase sucks such sweaty balls cause your team earned the fuck outta this ring.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
ThisWreckage said:
Exactly. Dirk is one of the best offensive NBA players in the history of the game. Very efficient.
Click to expand...

No, Dirk is one of the most efficient multi-faceted scorers in the history of the game. There is a difference that you're not grasping. There's more to offense than just scoring. Dirk is incredibly one dimensional on offense.

While I would agree he's a better offensive player than KG, he's not one of the best ever. Lethal scorer, sucky at everything else.
 
F

FullMetalx117

Member
Vahagn said:
No, Dirk is one of the most efficient multi-faceted scorers in the history of the game. There is a difference that you're not grasping. There's more to offense than just scoring. Dirk is incredibly one dimensional on offense.

While I would agree he's a better offensive player than KG, he's not one of the best ever. Lethal scorer, sucky at everything else.
Click to expand...

But it's also true that people really underrate Dirks defense. Sure he is not on KGs level but he is not terrible. He is pretty average. His rebounding numbers in the playoffs speak for themselves.
 
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