• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

2013 NBA Finals |OT| The "Big 3" looks to hang another banner... against the Heat

I

iamshadowlark

Banned
ThisWreckage said:
Not only has Dirk been to the playoffs more than KG, but he's put up over 25 points and 10 rebounds per game in the playoffs. So people saying that he can't rebound are clueless. You can look up the stats if you don't believe me. Also, as it's been stated a dozen times, Dirk's defense has improved majorly since Carlisle became the coach. Don Nelson coaching a team will ruin anyone defensively.
Click to expand...

KG has done that too. 27 & 12.

Not to mention 24/18, or 24/14 runs.

Its hard to rank a big man who is subpar at best for a lot of things he shouldn't be on .

Branduil said:
Just admit it.
Click to expand...

We just won another chip today, you really think I give a fuck about 2011? I don't like Dirk over KG, sorry.
 
D

Derwind

Member
Vire said:
Honestly, don't feel bad for Duncan.

He's got 4, is widely considered the best PF of all time and is a multi-millionare.

Feel bad for T-mac. Dude will never get a ring now. Hampered by injuries his whole career...
Click to expand...

Probably the best result of the entire playoffs.
 
N

Nightstick11

Banned
FullMetalx117 said:
With lebron in the league and OKC there will dwight, cp3, rose, and melo ever win a ring?
Click to expand...

I don't think OKC as constructed can beat the Spurs or Heat, although the latter-two should decline soon.

No team with roodypoo Dwight as its best player can win. Same with CP3. If they band up then maybe.

Healthy Bulls team would give any team fits, so maybe Rose.

Melo is a clown, and cut from the same cloth as Iverson.
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
iamshadowlark said:
KG has done that too. 27 & 12.

Not to mention 24/18, or 24/14 runs.

Its hard to rank a big man who is subpar at best for a lot of things he shouldn't be on .



We just won another chip today, you really think I give a fuck about 2011? I don't like Dirk over KG, sorry.
Click to expand...

No. KG averages 19 and 11 in the playoffs. It's not even close. Not to mention that Dirk is one of the most clutch playoff performers. He's one of the most decorated post season players still actively playing in the league. Even when Dallas lost in the first round Dirk was still the only one who showed up.
 
C

curlyfriski

Banned
Vahagn said:
You're accepting an arbitrary formula with arbitrary weight attached to different box score statistics as some sort of enlightened era?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

A box score, Larry o Brian trophies, scoring titles etc are things that are achieved. Hard data written down.

Win shares are some guys interpretation of that data through his own rationalizations and opinions on the value of this or that thing. Accepting this doesn't make you more enlightened, it makes you an NBA hipster essentially - accepting something simply because it's obscure, because it's underground, because it's out of the mainstream.

It's the same thing with PER. As time went on people started to poke holes in Hollinger's methodology and it's no longer heavily used. But there were a bunch of blind sheep 4-5 years ago arguing PER in every "objective" player comparison.
Click to expand...

Win shares are frequently cited because they're considered one of the better catch-all advanced stats. PER is still used, not because it's perfect, but because it's better for simple comparisons than any of the raw stats.

Scoring titles don't mean shit, and is meant for moron pundits who don't want to put in the required work to understand basketball. Adam Morrison has multiple rings. Elgin Baylor only got one after he retired. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment.

You sound like a bitter old man with the hipster talk. All of the front office's worth a damn use advanced stats, and soon the rest will too.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ThisWreckage said:
No. KG averages 19 and 11 in the playoffs. It's not even close. Not to mention that Dirk is one of the most clutch playoff performers. He's one of the most decorated post season players still actively playing in the league. Even when Dallas lost in the first round Dirk was still the only one who showed up.
Click to expand...

8 points on 2/13 shots in game 6. Only one who showed up.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I'm just using win shares because it's easy stat to show how much production LeBron has had in the playoffs already in his career. If you want just box-score stuff, he already has the eighth most points scored in the playoffs ever. He's also 14th in playoff assists and will be 6th next year with another Finals run.



They needed threes and he's an average three point shooter at best.
Click to expand...


Assuming another 7 years of long post season runs he's going to be up there in terms of all the individual statistics. It doesn't shake the fact that he's behind the 8 ball in chips at this age/length of time in the league when compared to other all time greats.

He had Legitimate opportunities in 09/10/11 to win and he couldn't get there. That put him behind the 8 ball. All those numbers and 3 chips wont be enough to be the best ever. He needs 4/4 or 5/3 to be a top 5 player all time.

I've said this before if you play 1400 games in your career you're gonna rack up a lot of numbers and if you struggle for only a 100 games they won't affect your averages much but if the majority of those games are in the second, third, or later rounds it's going to affect your chip count.

His numbers will always be gaudy, and this game 7 performance really earned my respect. But he's behind the 8 ball due to his own individual struggles so he has to catch up.
 
I

iamshadowlark

Banned
ThisWreckage said:
No. KG averages 19 and 11 in the playoffs. It's not even close. Not to mention that Dirk is one of the most clutch playoff performers. He's one of the most decorated post season players still actively playing in the league. Even when Dallas lost in the first round Dirk was still the only one who showed up.
Click to expand...

Oh you're talking career averages? Thats an entirely different argument. Im talking prime vs prime. But KGs not a scorer, so trying to throw PPG ad nausem doesn't really do anything for this argument.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ThisWreckage said:
That doesn't invalidate anything I said whatsoever. He still averaged 19 for that series and that was his worst series. Thats what KG averages on the whole.
Click to expand...

19 points on 38%/21% for the series.

Only player who showed up.


KG averages 19 when you include his numbers at age 36 and 35 and 34. Dirk hasn't been in the playoffs at those ages, yet. Fair comparison!
 
V

Vahagn

Member
curlyfriski said:
Win shares are frequently cited because they're considered one of the better catch-all advanced stats. PER is still used, not because it's perfect, but because it's better for simple comparisons than any of the raw stats.

Scoring titles don't mean shit, and is meant for moron pundits who don't want to put in the required work to understand basketball. Adam Morrison has multiple rings. Elgin Baylor only got one after he retired. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment.

You sound like a bitter old man with the hipster talk. All of the front office's worth a damn use advanced stats, and soon the rest will too.
Click to expand...

Using role players as an argument about rings when compared to superstars is the first sign of a clown in my eyes.

Anyone who says "duh if it's all about chips than Horry>Jordan" loses all credibility and you just used Adam Morrison lulz.

Scoring titles aren't useless at all. They're not the greatest individual achievement, but calling them useless is laughable. Advanced stats dont mean you understand basketball they mean you're analyzing data after the fact and trying to find hidden gems of strategy which get closed up quick once coaches catch wind.

You talk about championships being a team accomplishment shows how limited your understanding is. EVERYTHING is affected by the team.

Teams that struggle rebounding will tell their guards to gang rebound. Teams that have great interior rebounders will tell their guards to leak out. The fact that you want to, for example, say that The Bulls won chips because they were a better team than 2011 Miami also means you need to understand that Lebron rebounded at a higher clip than Jordam because he had a worse rebounding TEAM and so his role on the team is different and would be different if he had Rodman and Jordan had Christina Bosh.

You're perfectly willing to take individual stats without taking into consideration coaching philosophy, personnel, systems used, etc. but when it comes to CHIPS that's all "the team"

You don't understand basketball my man, you read spreadsheets
 
T

ThisWreckage

Banned
Black Mamba said:
19 points on 38%/21% for the series.

Only player who showed up.


KG averages 19 when you include his numbers at age 36 and 35 and 34. Dirk hasn't been in the playoffs at those ages, yet. Fair comparison!
Click to expand...

Do you think Dirk is going to slow down in the playoffs considering over his past three playoff runs he has averaged: 26.8, 27.7, and 26.7? I don't think so.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ThisWreckage said:
Do you think Dirk is going to slow down in the playoffs considering over his past three playoff runs he has averaged: 26.8, 27.7, and 26.7? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

uh, KG didn't slow down and then he tore his knee up.

KG from 22 - 31, the earliest age Dirk went to the playoffs.

22-13-5.

Considering Dirk's scoring, even on a per minute basis, dropped off each of the last 2 years (regardless of why), yes I think it would have come down. He's getting older. He's 34 now. it's going to drop. It will keep dropping over these next 2 years. Age is a bitch.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
946488_4651698505002_1086486566_n.jpg
 
C

curlyfriski

Banned
Vahagn said:
Using role players as an argument about rings when compared to superstars is the first sign of a clown in my eyes.

Anyone who says "duh if it's all about chips than Horry>Jordan" loses all credibility and you just used Adam Morrison lulz.

Scoring titles aren't useless at all. They're not the greatest individual achievement, but calling them useless is laughable. Advanced stats dont mean you understand basketball they mean you're analyzing data after the fact and trying to find hidden gems of strategy which get closed up quick once coaches catch wind.

You talk about championships being a team accomplishment shows how limited your understanding is. EVERYTHING is affected by the team.

Teams that struggle rebounding will tell their guards to gang rebound. Teams that have great interior rebounders will tell their guards to leak out. The fact that you want to, for example, say that The Bulls won chips because they were a better team than 2011 Miami also means you need to understand that Lebron rebounded at a higher clip than Jordam because he had a worse rebounding TEAM.

You're perfectly willing to take individual stats without taking into consideration coaching philosophy, personnel, systems used, etc. but when it comes to CHIPS that's all "the team"

You don't understand basketball my man, you read spreadsheets
Click to expand...

:lol

I didn't say any of the shit you said I did, but I expected that. This

Advanced stats dont mean you understand basketball they mean you're analyzing data after the fact and trying to find hidden gems of strategy which get closed up quick once coaches catch wind.
Click to expand...

was pretty funny, considering that's like, what all coaches do when they watch tape. And you still haven't answered as to why all the people who make basketball decisions for a living are using advanced stats. I'm checking out, but continue the conversation if you want. You can just debate your imaginary version of me.
 
V

Vahagn

Member
curlyfriski said:
:lol

I didn't say any of the shit you said I did, but I expected that. This



was pretty funny, considering that's like, what all coaches do when they watch tape. And you still haven't answered as to why all the people who make basketball decisions for a living are using advanced stats. I'm checking out, but consider the conversation if you want. You can just debate your imaginary version of me.
Click to expand...

I wrote way too much, I'll simplify it.

You did bring up Adam Morrison, denigrated the scoring title, and claimed championships are a TEAM accomplishment implying that all the individual numbers your precious advanced stats are based off of aren't affected by the team. So you actually said everything I referenced and expanded on, but when in doubt, play dumb I guess.

Coaches understand the game, they see nuances and draw up strategies and plays. They may use shot charts and some other info, but they're not making decisions off win shares and PER, you're heavily exaggerating the clout and influence of these kind of statistics.

And front office execs are still OVERWHELMINGLY people who have played or coached at a high level before. Basketball guys like Riley and Kupchak more than the few Hollinger types out there with actual decision making authority. Teams may have number crunchers and statisticians feeding them data, advanced stats etc, but that doesn't mean those data crunchers "understand the game" as you suggested.

There were tons of advanced stats guys saying for years that the corner 3 is the most efficient shot in basketball and that you shouldn't play Hero Ball all while Kobe and Phil rarely used the corner 3, played Hero Ball, and won 2 chips. Dirk played a lot of hero ball too, won a chip. Diddo for Lebron in the fourth quarters of game 6 and 7.

Now everyone knows that the corner 3 is sought after, it's not exclusively a D'Antoni obsession, so teams chase players off that line. Stats tell us that the mid range game is the worst shot in basketball, but the mid range game is also the easiest shot to get a clean look at during a high pressure basketball game which is why so many great mid range shooters like Jordan, Kobe, Dirk, Pierce, Lebron, Wade in 06, Bank shot Timmy, Hakeem, etc. all won chips catching fire from that area on the floor.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
I hate Lebron with a passion still, but I now have to give him some props regardless. He may have almost choked away game 6, but his teammates bailed him out and then he went on to have a strong game 7 to clinch a second straight title. He has two rings. He'll never be GOAT because he lacks the killer instinct and focus that most Legends have. He's a frontrunner. But he's the legitimate champion and superstar of this era. I think the last several years have been very weak competition-wise, but rings are rings.

I'd still put Kobe over Lebron. But Lebron is finally deserving of some of the hype he was pre-maturely given.

Spurs had their chances to win this series, but they couldn't hit crucial free throws and Pop lost his Got Damn mind at times. Manu had no business having the ball in crucial 4th/OT possessions.

Now Lebron is 2/4 in the Finals. Not a great percentage, but if he manages to win two or three more without losing, then the percentage won't look so bad.
 
J

jordan0386

Member
The Chosen One said:
I hate Lebron with a passion still, but I now have to give him some props regardless. He may have almost choked away game 6, but his teammates bailed him out and then he went on to have a strong game 7 to clinch a second straight title. He has two rings. He'll never be GOAT because he lacks the killer instinct and focus that most Legends have. He's a frontrunner. But he's the legitimate champion and superstar of this era. I think the last several years have been very weak competition-wise, but rings are rings.

I'd still put Kobe over Lebron. But Lebron is finally deserving of some of the hype he was pre-maturely given.

Spurs had their chances to win this series, but they couldn't hit crucial free throws and Pop lost his Got Damn mind at times. Manu had no business having the ball in crucial 4th/OT possessions.

Now Lebron is 2/4 in the Finals. Not a great percentage, but if he manages to win two or three more without losing, then the percentage won't look so bad.
Click to expand...

So much salt. Damn. Players leave in free agency every summer.
 
S

Snowblindvictim

Member
Anyone have any experience buying jerseys on ebay?
Specifically from seller basketball-jersey-world?
They're based out of Australia

They got some cool retro jerseys on there but I want to be sure I'm not getting counterfeit stuff. And if it is counterfeit then its semi decent quality
 
F

Feep

Banned
Partied all night.

God, what an awesome series. A miracle in Game 6 to save the NBA championship. Brilliant performances by both teams. Incredible.

I love the NBA.
 
F

Fjordson

Member
Damn, ESPN is replaying some of their coverage from last night. The summer of love has begun for them. Magic is like a schoolgirl talking to Lebron right now.

Also seeing the highlights for the first time since I didn't watch the game. Holy shit @ the Tim Duncan miss at the rim with Battier on him in the last minute. Shocked. Why Timmy, why =[

First Manu in game 6 and now Timmy with The Great Betrayal: Part II.
 
F

Fjordson

Member
peterb0y said:
Listening to SA sports radio.

Damn. This is sadness.
Click to expand...
I can't even imagine (since the Warriors have never come close to the finals in my time). Rough shit.

I wonder how SA will do next year. Manu could be totally done, but the rest of their team is still solid. And they have young players like Kawhi Leonard who continue to get better every day. All depends on if Timmy has another productive year in him I guess.
 
V

VindicatorZ

Member
Just waking up!? I just got home from celebrating all night 7:50 am. LETS GO MOTHER FUCKING HEAT! What a night, what a game, and what a clutch performance from Lebron.


Tons of respect to the Spurs. A great team and a great organization. What a series. Had us completely on the brink in Game 6, and worked us over in games 3 and 5. We definitely got a miracle in game 6 to squeak by, but that's how things happen in sports sometimes.

And Greg Popovich is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I loved seeing him embrace with Lebron and Wade after the game. Damn that guy is awesome.
 
B

Byakuya769

Member
Vahagn said:
Assuming another 7 years of long post season runs he's going to be up there in terms of all the individual statistics. It doesn't shake the fact that he's behind the 8 ball in chips at this age/length of time in the league when compared to other all time greats.

He had Legitimate opportunities in 09/10/11 to win and he couldn't get there. That put him behind the 8 ball. All those numbers and 3 chips wont be enough to be the best ever. He needs 4/4 or 5/3 to be a top 5 player all time.

I've said this before if you play 1400 games in your career you're gonna rack up a lot of numbers and if you struggle for only a 100 games they won't affect your averages much but if the majority of those games are in the second, third, or later rounds it's going to affect your chip count.

His numbers will always be gaudy, and this game 7 performance really earned my respect. But he's behind the 8 ball due to his own individual struggles so he has to catch up.
Click to expand...
As many stints as the best player on a championship team as Kobe, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

.....why did nobody notice The Witcher 3 - PS5 port was a glitchy mess?
2
65
9K
mayham2199 replied
Space Jam: A New Legacy First Look Features LeBron James, Don Cheadle, Bugs Bunny, And More
2 3
129
12K
AJUMP23 replied
A look back at the Ratchet & Clank series & Insomniac Games | Behind the scenes
Game Dev
7
3K
Kuranghi replied
What Happened to Superman? Dwight Howard and how he lost his way...
40
7K
sooperkool replied
Kotaku: NBA 2K18 is Riddled with Microtransactions
3 4 5 6 7
346
52K
IISANDERII replied
Top Bottom