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$500 cans on, this is how you dream right - Official Headphone Thread

Machine

Member
Was poking around on Facebook and saw this on the MEElectronics page:

Weekend Sale - Now is your chance to save on two great earphones:
CX21 = $20 & CX21P = $25 with coupon code CX_20_OFF
M21 = $20 & M21P = $25 with coupon code M21_15_OFF
Also, you can receive a shipping discount of $2.95 with coupon code SHIPPING_COUPON! Now through May 2nd 2011

I went ahead and ordered the M21 phones. Hard to resist for $19.99 shipped. Hopefully these will be a decent upgrade from my aged CX300 phones. I'm still not ready for the esoteric world of $300 earphones...
 

fatty

Member
So my trusty portable Sennheiser PX-100s broke on me and I'm looking to get a similar replacement for the same price point (PX-100ii are a bit more than I was wanting to pay).

Well, I started checking this thread and now I'm wanting to upgrade even more. My main headphones are the Panasonic RP-HTX7-W1 that I got back at Target on clearance for around $22 but I don't wear them as much because the tight fit starts to hurt my jawbone after a while, so I mainly used my PX-100s for sake of convenience.

After researching this thread, I'm now interested in the following:

Sennheiser HD555 (I would do the HD 595 mod) - They seem very comfortable, reviews seem to say the give me a bit more bass than my other choices, and I like that they are only $85. Bass isn't that important to me, but I did like the way the Beats Pro headphones sounded at Best Buy.

Audio Technica ATH-AD700 - $90

Beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO $168 Seeing a lot of recommendations for this set, but I'm not sure yet if almost twice the cost of the others is worth the price. Also, will these require an amplifier? If so, that would probably take them out of consideration as I just bought a new laptop so I don't want to spend too much more.

Grado Prestige Series SR80i $99 - Saw praise for the Grados brand but don't know too much about them.

I'm wanting to pull the trigger but I just don't know. Please help. And to think I'm still going to need a PX-100 replacement for portability...
 

Ashhong

Member
Machine said:
Was poking around on Facebook and saw this on the MEElectronics page:

Weekend Sale - Now is your chance to save on two great earphones:
CX21 = $20 & CX21P = $25 with coupon code CX_20_OFF
M21 = $20 & M21P = $25 with coupon code M21_15_OFF
Also, you can receive a shipping discount of $2.95 with coupon code SHIPPING_COUPON! Now through May 2nd 2011

I went ahead and ordered the M21 phones. Hard to resist for $19.99 shipped. Hopefully these will be a decent upgrade from my aged CX300 phones. I'm still not ready for the esoteric world of $300 earphones...

Awesome, thanks. I paid 40$ on Amazon less than a month ago so I will be returning those and buying it again.
 
1stStrike said:
Yar, been too long since I popped in here. I see there's still interest in the Denon's, so to recap - if you want god tier Denon's, whether 2000's, 5000's or 7000's (I've used the 2000's and currently the 7000's) you need to go and see this post. Not only are the D7000's great, but this PPA works magic with em.
okay, so where's the DIY page? doesn't look too hard.
 

HiResDes

Member
fatty said:
So my trusty portable Sennheiser PX-100s broke on me and I'm looking to get a similar replacement for the same price point (PX-100ii are a bit more than I was wanting to pay).

Well, I started checking this thread and now I'm wanting to upgrade even more. My main headphones are the Panasonic RP-HTX7-W1 that I got back at Target on clearance for around $22 but I don't wear them as much because the tight fit starts to hurt my jawbone after a while, so I mainly used my PX-100s for sake of convenience.

After researching this thread, I'm now interested in the following:

Sennheiser HD555 (I would do the HD 595 mod) - They seem very comfortable, reviews seem to say the give me a bit more bass than my other choices, and I like that they are only $85. Bass isn't that important to me, but I did like the way the Beats Pro headphones sounded at Best Buy.

Audio Technica ATH-AD700 - $90

Beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO $168 Seeing a lot of recommendations for this set, but I'm not sure yet if almost twice the cost of the others is worth the price. Also, will these require an amplifier? If so, that would probably take them out of consideration as I just bought a new laptop so I don't want to spend too much more.

Grado Prestige Series SR80i $99 - Saw praise for the Grados brand but don't know too much about them.

I'm wanting to pull the trigger but I just don't know. Please help. And to think I'm still going to need a PX-100 replacement for portability...
Safest bet would probably be to the Sennheiser 555, but if you listen to rock definitely go with the Grados

That specific model of the DT990's definitely needs an amp to sound its best.
 

fatty

Member
HiResDes said:
Safest bet would probably be to the Sennheiser 555, but if you listen to rock definitely go with the Grados

That specific model of the DT990's definitely needs an amp to sound its best.

Thanks, I'm leaning toward the Sennheiser 555 as my first foray the world of quality headphones and go from there. I do listen to rock, but it's probably only 15% of my music selection. Thanks for this thread (even though you're forcing me into another hobby).

alr1ghtstart said:

Yeah, those seem to be the consensus substitute. But man, for some reason I can't get past the way they look.
 

HiResDes

Member
Don't forget about the Alessandro MS1, which are like a more balanced version of the Grado SR80...Definitely look into them
 
What do you guys think of the Beyerdynamic DT770 (80ohm)? I got some Sennheiser 555's a few weeks back but I really don't like the audio leaking.

I was also just considering the Sennheiser 448HD's as they are closed. 90% of the time the headphones will be plugged into my iMac for podcasting and listening to music.

Thoughts?
 

HiResDes

Member
CoachKevin said:
What do you guys think of the Beyerdynamic DT770 (80ohm)? I got some Sennheiser 555's a few weeks back but I really don't like the audio leaking.

I was also just considering the Sennheiser 448HD's as they are closed. 90% of the time the headphones will be plugged into my iMac for podcasting and listening to music.

Thoughts?
DT770's are comfortable as shit, but they still leak some, just less than most open cans...However if you want something that leaks less like say the Ultrasone HFI-580 you're probably gonna have to deal with tighter clamping.
 
HiResDes said:
DT770's are comfortable as shit, but they still leak some, just less than most open cans...However if you want something that leaks less like say the Ultrasone HFI-580 you're probably gonna have to deal with tighter clamping.

thanks for the input, basically I just want a great sounding set that aren't open. A musician recommended the Beyerdynamic's. Just need to decide if it is worth the extra $100 over the Sennheiser 448HD's or going with something else.

The one thing I love about the 555's is the surround sound feel of them. I am guessing the Beyerdynamic's will give me that too?
 

HiResDes

Member
I like the 250 OHM Pro version better than the 80 OHM...It's definitely more balanced, but the tradeoff is that it really does require a lot of amplification and it has less bass.


Edit: HFI-580's have better soundstage, although open cans usually sport better soundstage than closed cans. But as far as the DT770's are concerned the 250OHM and 600OHM have better soundstage.
 
OK, so I did some more looking last night and I am down to these three:

  • Sony MDR 7506 ($90)
  • Beyerdynamic DD770 80ohm ($200 from guitarcenter)
  • Audiotechnica ATH-m50 ($130)

Mostly they will be used for music (all kinds from Daft punk to dave matthews, to mos def, to common, to DMX) while I work at the computer during the day in 2-3 hour intervals .

I would also like to be able to use them for recording my podcasts (which was why I was looking so closely at the Sony's).

I don't mind spending $200, but if I am not going to get much out of them I would rather not. Also the guitar center is a 40 minute drive each way.

Again, I have been using the Sennheiser 555's, but I am just not a fan of the open design.

Thanks!
 

HiResDes

Member
CoachKevin said:
OK, so I did some more looking last night and I am down to these three:

  • Sony MDR 7506 ($90)
  • Beyerdynamic DD770 80ohm ($200 from guitarcenter)
  • Audiotechnica ATH-m50 ($130)

Mostly they will be used for music (all kinds from Daft punk to dave matthews, to mos def, to common, to DMX) while I work at the computer during the day in 2-3 hour intervals .

I would also like to be able to use them for recording my podcasts (which was why I was looking so closely at the Sony's).

I don't mind spending $200, but if I am not going to get much out of them I would rather not. Also the guitar center is a 40 minute drive each way.

Again, I have been using the Sennheiser 555's, but I am just not a fan of the open design.

Thanks!
Actually, I take that back considering build quality I'd go with the MDR 7506, if you don't need portable ones
 
HiResDes said:
Actually, I take that back considering build quality I'd go with the MDR 7506, if you don't need portable ones

Do you mind me asking why? I just heard that the Sony's have no bass and no soundstage. Thanks.
 

HiResDes

Member
Well the Equation Audio RP-21 supposedly sound better, but the 7506's are built like a tank. I really do think you should check into the Ultrasone HFI-580s that I keep mentioning, as none of those cans are particularly suiting for a bass junkie...Which I think you might be, and like I said you have to understand that most closed cans have mediocre soundstage.
 
HiResDes said:
Well the Equation Audio RP-21 supposedly sound better, but the 7506's are built like a tank. I really do think you should check into the Ultrasone HFI-580s that I keep mentioning, as none of those cans are particularly suiting for a bass junkie...Which I think you might be, and like I said you have to understand that most closed cans have mediocre soundstage.
From the reviews of the HFI-580s some people don't think they are too comfortable. I will go with the 7506's and ATH-50's and see which one I like more and return the other.

Thanks for the suggestions.
 
I'm currently using Turtle Beach X41's as I had primarily been gaming, however, I'm in a bit of a gaming funk lately so I've switched to movies and music. What is the opinion of X41's vs say, these ATH-A700's (closed) for primarily movie and music listening?

Is the difference substantial enough to justify the $120 cost?

Thanks :)
 

Alucrid

Banned
CoachKevin said:
OK, so I did some more looking last night and I am down to these three:

  • Sony MDR 7506 ($90)
  • Beyerdynamic DD770 80ohm ($200 from guitarcenter)
  • Audiotechnica ATH-m50 ($130)

Mostly they will be used for music (all kinds from Daft punk to dave matthews, to mos def, to common, to DMX) while I work at the computer during the day in 2-3 hour intervals .

I would also like to be able to use them for recording my podcasts (which was why I was looking so closely at the Sony's).

I don't mind spending $200, but if I am not going to get much out of them I would rather not. Also the guitar center is a 40 minute drive each way.

Again, I have been using the Sennheiser 555's, but I am just not a fan of the open design.

Thanks!

I wouldn't recommenced listening to dave matthews with those headphones
 
Ordered the Audio-Technica ATH-m50s, will be here in the morning. Will give them a few days to see how they sound.

Alucrid said:
I wouldn't recommenced listening to dave matthews with those headphones

What would you recommend that is closed? Under $200.
 

Alucrid

Banned
CoachKevin said:
Ordered the Audio-Technica ATH-m50s, will be here in the morning. Will give them a few days to see how they sound.



What would you recommend that is closed? Under $200.

Uh, it was a joke. Cause I don't like Dave Matthews band.
 
Haha, I rarely listen to them anymore, that was more of a college and high school years thing. I listen to the most random shit now thanks to Pandora.
 
Some notes on the SM3 from the 15 or so hours I've put into them:

- The SM3 don't really seem to have a sound signature of any sort. More so than any other phone I've ever owned, or listened to, they are transparent in the sense that they present whatever the recording engineer intended. I recall being underwhelmed when I first put them on because the track I was listening to was mastered in a way that made the recording seem very flat and distant. Every pair of phones I've ever owned has a sort of sound signature; qualities that are imparted to the music regardless of mastering. Phones like the SA5k or FX500 will pump out prodigious details that lends an exciting "feel" to the music due to the fact that they have a sort of V shaped response curve. The DDM has a very lush sounding midrange and textured bass, and this will lend some things a sense of weight even when that weight isn't called for (delicate strings for instance). The SM3 on the other hand are very hard to describe since their characteristics will change even from track to track on the same album. The soundstage and bass are two such characteristics. If the track isn't mastered to sound very large and spacious, it will come across as flat and constricted, and details and vocals will seem distant. Intimate recordings however, will present vocals as very close to you which will be dripping with details. The sound stage and presentation honestly changes more so with the SM3 than any other phone I've ever listened to. Similarly, if a song calls for lots of bass, the SM3 will easily fill that space with all the punch you could ever want unless you're the sort who gets their jollies off to Dr. Dre branded fartcannons.


Things that remain constant from track to track: balance. To my ears, the SM3 are very balanced. There isn't anything lacking or missing or recessed in the sound spectrum. As I stated before, they will only present to you what's in the track, which is what initially threw me off of them. The SM3 are very quick and nimble. I suppose that's to be expected since they are balanced armature phones. That means that transient attack speeds are extremely fast, but at the same time, the amount of decay is just right. The SM3 are very interesting in that they offer the speed and clarity of balanced armature phones, and yet, don't sacrifice the texture, timbre and bass response of dynamic driver phones. In fact, the SM3 can pump out a surprising amount of bass, nearly on par with the DDM when it calls for it, which is incredible for a single BA bass driver.

A problem that I have with the SA5k is that with their nano composite drivers, they were too fast. Things that were supposed to reverberate, or resonate simply didn't, and that made them sound off with certain instruments. The SM3 doesn't suffer from this. Whatever level of attack or finesse is required, they easily rise up to the occasion. A test track that I have to test speed, attack, vocals and sound stage is "Sytrofoam Boots" by Modest Mouse. And this is easily one of the best reproductions I've ever heard of this track; playing through my iphone, the SM3's performance easily rivals my SA5ks properly amped. Vocal clarity, stereo imaging and speed are extremely good. There is a point midway through the track where Jeremiah Green enters into the song with some thunderous drumming crystal clear drumming. Listening to a pair of speedy phones such as the SA5k, the attack on the drums scares me every single time. The shift in dynamics in that instant are huge, and the SM3 is easily on par with the SA5k in rendering that split second. Towards the end of the song, Green goes into warp overdrive, and the SM3 easily keep up the beat without smearing. This same feat is pulled off on Baba O' Riley's synth riff which is played throughout the song. I even played some Racer X for shits and giggles, and the SM3 had no problem keeping up with Paul Gilbert and co.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, they are capable of rendering extremely fine and delicate details as in strings and vocals. Vocals on the SM3 are nearly on par with the SA5K in terms of clarity which is extremely good as the SA5ks, due to their clinical presentation, churn out the most realistic and detailed vocals I've ever heard. Go ahead and put on some Roy Orbison or The Righteous Brothers or hell, some Andrea Bocelli and prepare for fucking goosebumps. I'm almost willing to bet that these things might even make me somehow enjoy Josh Groban. It's that good. Similarly, the control and dynamics on string swells as in Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 show a level of refinement that the DDM just can't match. The DDM lends too much weight to the strings, and they aren't fast enough so the double bass section lingers a bit too long. It just feels off after listening to the SM3 as the bass comes across as boomy and flabby in comparison to the SM3's taut and controlled bass. In contrast, the SM3 renders details so finely, and so delicately, it's almost like they're just conjured from thin air. And it's because of this, that on the best recordings, you just forget you're even listening to phones. (Which has lead to me listening to a lot of recordings from the 70's through 90's, before the loudness wars)

The FX500 may have more boisterous levels of bass, and the SA5k might be more electrifying, and the DDM might render guitars with an organic level of grit, but I think much moreso than the other phones, the SM3 just does everything right to my ears. It isn't fatiguing and congested like the FX500, it's not laid back and viscous like the DDM, and it doesn't suffer from a recessed bass like the SA5k. Even moreso than with the DDM, I don't feel like I should have to analyze what I'm listening to, nor wonder if I'm missing something in the mix, everything simply... just feels right to me. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go listen to some DSotM.
 
CoachKevin said:
Ordered the Audio-Technica ATH-m50s, will be here in the morning. Will give them a few days to see how they sound.



What would you recommend that is closed? Under $200.

You'll enjoy them. Listen to them while walking to class, and stash them in my bag. Solid as fuck.
 

Alucrid

Banned
Alucrid said:
So uh. Fischer Audio Eternas Rev 1 + Fiio E5 for $60 anyone?

Includes:

2 sets of single ear tips (though I rec getting the sony replacement tips)
male to male 3.5 cable
usb to mini usb to charge it
Headphone pouch
Wire holder thingies.

I'll take a pic tomorrow.

WaXsol.jpg
 
I have seen some comflicting discussions on this, but I don't really need an amp to plug my ath-50s into a 27" imac right?

Also does anyone know if the latest macbook airs have a decent sound board for outputting?

Finally, any difference in output between the ipod touches and the ipod classic?
 
I've decided to splurge a bit for some new headphones and I was wondering what I can get my hands on for $130 or so. I was originally going to buy the Audio-Technica ATH M50 cans when they were $115 on amazon, but they are now $140 so that is most likely out of the running. Another choice I have in mind are the Sennheiser HD555 phones since they hold the most promise and they can be modded so easily.

I've never used an amp before and my main concern is getting headphones that cover three of my basic music needs. A sterile sound with as little coloration as possible, a Grado that can give me the best Jazz and Rock experience on a limited budget and a third headphone with good all around quality and a warm sound.

I don't expect to find all that for $130, but I do expect to find a set of cans that can fulfill one of these roles. I previously owned a set of Grado SR80 and I plan on making the jump to the SR225i model someday and the ATH M50 may be the best sterile phone I can find outside of the AKG offerings. I've also used a Sennheiser HD202, I own Shure PTH E500 IEMs and I have Koss portapros that I use for daily listening.

Will the Sennheiser HD555 produce great all around sound with warmth for the price? Are there any other phones that do a better job a similar price(probably not since the mod improves the 555 so much)?

Thanks in advance
 

Jarmel

Banned
Been awhile since I looked at anything audio related. I have the HD800s, has there been anything considered signficantly better?
 

Alucrid

Banned
SolarPowered said:
I've decided to splurge a bit for some new headphones and I was wondering what I can get my hands on for $130 or so. I was originally going to buy the Audio-Technica ATH M50 cans when they were $115 on amazon, but they are now $140 so that is most likely out of the running. Another choice I have in mind are the Sennheiser HD555 phones since they hold the most promise and they can be modded so easily.

I've never used an amp before and my main concern is getting headphones that cover three of my basic music needs. A sterile sound with as little coloration as possible, a Grado that can give me the best Jazz and Rock experience on a limited budget and a third headphone with good all around quality and a warm sound.

I don't expect to find all that for $130, but I do expect to find a set of cans that can fulfill one of these roles. I previously owned a set of Grado SR80 and I plan on making the jump to the SR225i model someday and the ATH M50 may be the best sterile phone I can find outside of the AKG offerings. I've also used a Sennheiser HD202, I own Shure PTH E500 IEMs and I have Koss portapros that I use for daily listening.

Will the Sennheiser HD555 produce great all around sound with warmth for the price? Are there any other phones that do a better job a similar price(probably not since the mod improves the 555 so much)?

Thanks in advance

Just my opinion, but I'd rather have the M50s than the 555s. (I've owned the 555s, still own the M50s) Though I'm not sure what you mean when you call them sterile. Perhaps neutral? If so I wouldn't say they're all that neutral.

Wait. You want a headphone with little coloration, but a warm sound signature? They're like...the opposites of each other.

Jarmel said:
Been awhile since I looked at anything audio related. I have the HD800s, has there been anything considered signficantly better?

Well...there's always the top tier of other brands that can offer a radically different sound signature.
 
Anyone know of some good but relatively inexpensive ($30-ish or lower) sweat-resistant headphones? I sweat like crazy when I go running and my headphones always stop working.
 
Alucrid said:
Just my opinion, but I'd rather have the M50s than the 555s. (I've owned the 555s, still own the M50s) Though I'm not sure what you mean when you call them sterile. Perhaps neutral? If so I wouldn't say they're all that neutral.
I may change my mind, but that depends on whether or not the price goes back down. I also meant to say neutral, but the word eluded me for a while so I just went with the next best word.

What do you like best about the M50?

Alucrid said:
Wait. You want a headphone with little coloration, but a warm sound signature? They're like...the opposites of each other.
I probably made a mistake in my earlier post. It's been a while since I last talked headphones with anyone knowledgeable on the subject. I'm somewhat aware of coloration and what it means. Warm sound like the one produced by the E500PTH would be described as warm. It's one of the reasons why I felt like going with the HD555. A sound similar(obviously full cans are a step above any IEM) to the E500 in full cans would be very nice for Jazz and classical.

Edit: I just re-read my post and I don't see where I mentioned that I'd like a warm and neutral sound. I just need three types to cover my bases. A neutral set, a warm set and Grado cans that I'll investigate on my own. Where did you get warm and no coloration?
HiResDes said:
A more Grado-like option would be the AKG K240MKII, which are only $137 right now
Reading up on it right now.
 
my M50s just arrived, time to break these in.

First off, they are very comfortable, have no idea what others were talking about when they reviewed these.
 

Yasae

Banned
HiResDes said:
A more Grado-like option would be the AKG K240MKII, which are only $137 right now
Important to note that Mk1's (gold exterior) used to be around $99, and were probably just as good.

Notes:

- The cables were always very fragile. They'd get shorts and internal breakage around the xlr connector, and you couldn't pop them open like a mic cable since they were bound shut in molded plastic (there are no screws or separate parts allowing access.) Once they start going out - and they will - you'll have to buy another for $20.

Thankfully the MkII's come with a coiled cable, potentially preventing stress. Whether AKG have wired their contacts any better or switched designs in other significant ways remains to be seen, however. Be careful either way.

- Leather headrests are terrible for the skin beyond occasional use. I got rashes from using these so much. Again, the MkII's come with a couple mesh (velour) ear pads allowing air to pass through and the skin around the ears to breathe. The high end coloration would likely be insignificant.

- The gold 1/8" to 1/4" adapters are proprietary. You can use generic adapters with the headphones fine, but the adapters they come with don't attach to anything else because of the screw-on threads. Annoying!
 

HiResDes

Member
CoachKevin said:
Also I can still hear a hiss just like my 555s, might be time to get a desk amp for my imac, what do you guys suggest?
You probably need to get a DAC first, or an amp that comes with one.
 
I've also got a question that can have a big impact on the ATH M50 can's likelihood of being bought. Why are there three different pages for it on Amazon ranging from $140 to $123?

Edit: I just saw the difference.
 

Alucrid

Banned
SolarPowered said:
I may change my mind, but that depends on whether or not the price goes back down. I also meant to say neutral, but the word eluded me for a while so I just went with the next best word.

What do you like best about the M50?


I probably made a mistake in my earlier post. It's been a while since I last talked headphones with anyone knowledgeable on the subject. I'm somewhat aware of coloration and what it means. Warm sound like the one produced by the E500PTH would be described as warm. It's one of the reasons why I felt like going with the HD555. A sound similar(obviously full cans are a step above any IEM) to the E500 in full cans would be very nice for Jazz and classical.

Edit: I just re-read my post and I don't see where I mentioned that I'd like a warm and neutral sound. I just need three types to cover my bases. A neutral set, a warm set and Grado cans that I'll investigate on my own. Where did you get warm and no coloration?

Reading up on it right now.

My bad. I thought you meant you wanted those three qualities in one headphone, not three separate headphones each with one of those qualities. I found the M50 to be more engaging and, since I was a bit of a bass head then, found that to be much better than the 555s. The 555s also seemed too...veiled, especially in comparison to the 650s I have now. The mod makes a difference but I still felt underwhelmed with the sound I was hearing. The fit was also a lot better.
 
Jarmel said:
Been awhile since I looked at anything audio related. I have the HD800s, has there been anything considered signficantly better?
Nah. Unless you upgrade your source or amp. Once you hit that point, most phones are sidegrades really. Although I have read that many Head-Fiers actually preferred the sound of the JH16 over the HD800, which is pretty mindboggling. I honestly think the future is going to be in multi armature driven monitors.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri said:
Nah. Unless you upgrade your source or amp. Once you hit that point, most phones are sidegrades really. Although I have read that many Head-Fiers actually preferred the sound of the JH16 over the HD800, which is pretty mindboggling. I honestly think the future is going to be in multi armature driven monitors.

I have the JH13s anyway. They're damn good and are somewhat comparable to my desktop rig which cost roughly 10x more(no exaggeration).
 

Kyaw

Member
Hey guys, just wanted to ask what would be a significant upgrade from a Audio Technica AD-700 for around £250-300?

I mainly listen to Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Blackfield, Porcupine Tree and other rock/psychedelic stuff. Sometimes i listen to drum and bass and some Daft Punk style stuff.
 
Jarmel said:
I have the JH13s anyway. They're damn good and are somewhat comparable to my desktop rig which cost roughly 10x more(no exaggeration).
Precisely. That's diminishing returns in full effect right there. I think it's only a matter of time before multi arm IEMs overtake headphones altogether. The technology has really grown by leaps whereas headphone tech has remained pretty stagnant.
 
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