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[Kinitari]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...itis-police-interview-toddler-death-1.3537887

Audio recordings obtained by CBC News of police interviews with two Alberta parents accused of allowing their toddler to die from meningitis reveal how strongly the couple believed in the power of natural remedies over conventional medicine, even after the boy was flown to a Calgary hospital in grave condition.

David Stephan, 32, and his wife, Collet Stephan, 36, are accused of failing to provide the necessaries of life for their nearly 19-month-old son Ezekiel, who died in March 2012. The charges were laid almost a year later.

Just after 1 a.m. on March 15, 2012, as the toddler lay unconscious at the Alberta Children's Hospital in Calgary, RCMP Cpl. Ryan Bulford conducted separate lengthy interviews with the Stephans, asking both to describe in detail the events leading up to that point.

More at the link. This was a story a while ago, but now you can access audio clips for the trial, where the parents are interviewed, and the article summarizes the events. In cases like this I have some difficulty appreciating who's at fault here, with the goal being to prevent this from happening again, I'm not sure the right path is to punish the parents and leave it at that, at least.

If the idea is the parents should have known that natural remedies don't work, and not going to a real doctor is criminally negligent, then a mixed message is sent when we as a country allow naturopaths and homeopaths and woo peddlers to conduct their business unmolested, we need to be clearer.


Update: Charged -
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...trial-sentence-parents-toddler-died-1.3650653

A father has been sentenced to four months in jail and his wife to three months of house arrest after being found guilty of failing to provide the necessaries of life for their 19-month-old son, who died from bacterial meningitis.

...

Before handing down the differing sentences for the couple, the judge pointed out that Collet did research and called a nurse about her son's illness.

By contrast, he said, David simply got more nutritional supplements and, instead of calling of 911, called his father.


The judge said David has deflected responsibility and demonstrated a complete lack of remorse for his actions, focusing more on how the situation affected him as opposed to his son.

"[David] loved his son, but to this day refuses to accept his actions played any role in Ezekiel's death," he said.

"David's moral culpability is greater than Collet's."

...

As part of the sentencing — which took about 90 minutes — the judge ordered the Stephans' three other children to see a medical doctor at least once a year and a public health nurse every three months.

Both parents will have to complete 240 hours of community service.

There are exceptions to Collet's house arrest to allow for church and medical appointments.

She was also ordered to post an unedited copy of the sentencing decision to websites and social media accounts she is personally affiliated with.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Only an idiot would think that natural remedies will work against meningitis.

They were negligent in their responsibility towards a child, even if they wanted to try natural remedies, they should have taken the child to a real doctor first to get advice and be put on the right path.

About the mixed message, I do agree regulation is needed against those snake oil sellers to stop them from making such dangerous claims.

 

[Kinitari]

Only an idiot would think that natural remedies will work against meningitis.

They were negligent in their responsibility towards a child, even if they wanted to try natural remedies, they should have taken the child to a real doctor first to get advice and be put on the right path.

About the mixed message, I do agree regulation is needed against those snake oil sellers to stop them from making such dangerous claims.

Reading the article and hearing them talk I can't help but feel like they 100% believed that what they were doing was helping their kid. The fathers family business is predicated on these beliefs. It's such an integral part of who they are, and is validated by things like health insurance coverage and official court rulings like the one mentioned in the article... How can we say they should have known better?

 

[Squall5042]

I don't understand how people can think like this. Plus who's to say what's natural.

 

[diaspora]

How much they believed it to be true is pretty useless IMO. They killed a person.

 

[QualityPixel]

A friend of mine recently suffered something similar to meningitis. If he had gone home and drank some tea or took some homeopathic pills rather than than going to the hospital immediately them he would likely be dead or worse.

Homeopathy is horrible, especially when it costs innocent children's lives.

 

[ThatGayWolf]

Sounds like he was another eze kiel for naturopathy


But really, this ridiculous willful ignorance needs to stop. There's no reason that child should have died other than that his parents were idiots.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Shit like this makes my blood boil.
Fuck off into the woods and do your homopathy-shit there alone, but leave children out of it..

 

[Sarek]

How much they believed it to be true is pretty useless IMO. They killed a person.

Have to agree with you. Their intentions might have been good, but that doesn't change the end result one bit. Especially in a case like this where the person hurt was someone who couldn't take care of himself.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

The article left me with many questions. For example is the state suing the parents?
This seems like an unusual incident.

 

[Jacob]

The article left me with many questions. For example is the state suing the parents?
This seems like an unusual incident.

It's a criminal trial, not a lawsuit. There have been similar cases before.

 

[Griss]

Last time I was in one of these threads I was banned for a week, so I'll just say I hope the parents get time. We need to set precedents for these things and make sure people see them.

Their intentions are, obviously, important. Mens rea is 50% of the crime after all. But they have definitely been negligent here, and should be convicted on whatever negligent killing law Canada has.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

In cases like this I have some difficulty appreciating who's at fault here, with the goal being to prevent this from happening again, I'm not sure the right path is to punish the parents and leave it at that, at least.

If the idea is the parents should have known that natural remedies don't work, and not going to a real doctor is criminally negligent, then a mixed message is sent when we as a country allow naturopaths and homeopaths and woo peddlers to conduct their business unmolested, we need to be clearer.

Have to agree with this.

It's such an integral part of who they are, and is validated by things like health insurance coverage and official court rulings like the one mentioned in the article

this part is especially problematic.

 

[Kinitari]

How much they believed it to be true is pretty useless IMO. They killed a person.

Have to agree with you. Their intentions might have been good, but that doesn't change the end result one bit. Especially in a case like this where the person hurt was someone who couldn't take care of himself.

It generally matters in legal cases of manslaughter. If you think, truly, that pressing a button is safe, and it kills someone, how much does it matter what you believed? If you thought that maybe it could be bad to press that button, but really wanted to anyway, I imagine the considerations are different

 

[siddx]

The parents are fucking idiots but something also has to be done about all the snake oil salesmen pushing their bullshit natural and homeopathic nonsense. They take advantage of all the naive, stupid, and desperate people out there and have some liability in this kind of shit as well. As do people like Oprah and sites like huffpo that give these con artists a platform.

 

[darscot]

My biggest concern is how these parents came to be, such a complete and utter failure of the education system. The fact that the child's body was so seized and locked up they couldn't get him in a car seat enrages me. I just don't get how anyone can be this stupid.

 

[Suikoguy]

...
In cases like this I have some difficulty appreciating who's at fault here, with the goal being to prevent this from happening again, I'm not sure the right path is to punish the parents and leave it at that, at least.

If the idea is the parents should have known that natural remedies don't work, and not going to a real doctor is criminally negligent, then a mixed message is sent when we as a country allow naturopaths and homeopaths and woo peddlers to conduct their business unmolested, we need to be clearer.

Difficult to add anything when you succinctly look at both issues at play here in the OP. Well done.

 

[darscot]

If the idea is the parents should have known that natural remedies don't work, and not going to a real doctor is criminally negligent, then a mixed message is sent when we as a country allow naturopaths and homeopaths and woo peddlers to conduct their business unmolested, we need to be clearer.

I do believe they did try and go after this family for peddling their garbage but they lost. Maybe someone can add more details but I thought I read it somewhere. It's such a tough thing to make herbal remedies illegal.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

It's a criminal trial, not a lawsuit. There have been similar cases before.

Who filed the complaint against the parents and to whom? I'm unfamiliar with the legal process in Canada.

 

[Akuun]

Have to agree with this.


this part is especially problematic.

This is a good point. One huge problem with things like homeopathy is that it's becoming increasingly difficult to differentiate this shit with actual medicine. I see homeopathic medicines sold in pharmacies, next to actual medicine. The only really noticeable difference is in the fine print, and a general flowery vagueness in its text.

If there are real systems making homeopathic medicine look almost as readily available to people as normal medicine, then it could be hard for uneducated people to realize that it's something bad. They hear that it's bad but they don't understand why stores, insurance plans, pharmacies, and so on are all treating them like legitimate medicine rather than the scams that they are.

Scamming people with things like pyramid schemes is illegal(with the exception of shitty loophole fuckwads like Primerica), but somehow homeopathic medicine can be covered under actual medicine insurance plans. It makes no sense.

 

[levious]

It generally matters in legal cases of manslaughter. If you think, truly, that pressing a button is safe, and it kills someone, how much does it matter what you believed? If you thought that maybe it could be bad to press that button, but really wanted to anyway, I imagine the considerations are different

I'm not sure if what the particular individual believed is important (short of deception maybe) but rather what the average person would/should have been aware of in that situation. Or perhaps that is a standard in civil cases. I really don't recall.

 

[23qwerty]

How can we say they should have known better?

They should have known better, but they didn't. Seems difficult to find them criminally responsible when they truly believed they were doing the right thing.

 

[Jebusman]

Who filed the complaint against the parents and to whom? I'm unfamiliar with the legal process in Canada.

No one would specifically have to "file a complaint" for it to be a criminal trial. The death of a toddler of meningitis is uncommon enough that the police had some questions for them as it happened. Once combing through the testamony, the Crown (aka the government) determined that the death of the child was due to negligence on part of the parents, and filed criminal charges.

I don't know how it is in the States, but in Canada it's a crime to be negligent to giving the necessities of life to anyone in your direct care who is unable, for any reason, to care for themselves. Whether it be because of age, mental or phyiscal ability, etc.

It gets murky when the parents "believed" that they were in fact giving those necessities, but people have argued before that ignorance isn't a valid defence.

 

[darscot]

Who filed the complaint against the parents and to whom? I'm unfamiliar with the legal process in Canada.

I'm sure this rang alarm bells at the hospital and would have started a police investigation. You can't just walk into a hospital with a extremely neglected dead child.

 

[diaspora]

They should have known better, but they didn't. Seems difficult to find them criminally responsible when they truly believed they were doing the right thing.

But I mean... this seems just as flawed as affluenza conceptually.

 

[CyclopsRock]

They made an awful mistake, but it's hard to imagine what good is going to come from throwing the book at them. Will it act as a deterrent to them reoffending, or others? Moreso than the fact they killed their kid? I know it can't be flexible but it seems bad all round.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Man, if this shit ain't work for Steve Jobs with billions in the bank how the fuck regular people from regular means think it can work for them? It's just dumb.

Ok, you sprained your toe...sure massage some honey into it if you think it'll help but for serious shit like cancer or meningitis...c'mon healing crystals and shit ain't gonna cut it.

They made an awful mistake, but it's hard to imagine what good is going to come from throwing the book at them. Will it act as a deterrent to them reoffending, or others? Moreso than the fact they killed their kid? I know it can't be flexible but it seems bad all round.

Their negligence for the loss of a human life. They should be held accountable for their inactions. Just like people that let their kid slowly die from treatable shit cause of the power of prayer...

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Alberta toddler's final days before meningitis death detailed in physician's report at parents' trial

"Collet subsequently looked croup up on the internet and saw that it was a viral infection and that the only medical treatment typically offered was a dose of steroids if it was severe," the physician's report reads.

"As per the internet suggestions, they treated Ezekiel's breathing difficulty with cool air and a humidifier. They also started Ezekiel on some herbal/naturopathic remedies which they believe help fight off viral infections and have given Ezekiel in the past when he has a cold."

Home remedies

Those remedies included olive leaf extract, garlic and methylsulfonylmethane, in addition to the "daily herbal/naturopathic supplements" that the parents had been giving Ezekiel, according to the physician's report.

That daily regime included Omega 3-6-9, whey protein, FermPlus, an unnamed digestive enzyme, and Empowerplus — a controversial supplement sold by a company founded by Ezekiel's grandfather, Anthony Stephan.

The company, Truehope Nutritional Support, had been locked in a years-long battle with Health Canada over the supplement, which the federal department warned in 2003 did not have enough scientific backing to be considered safe and was being sold without a drug identification number.

These people are not mentally capable of taking care of children.

 

[23qwerty]

But I mean... this seems just as flawed as affluenza conceptually.

Ehhh I wouldn't say as flawed, it's quite a bit different from affluenza which strikes me as just a shield rich people like to use to get away with shit. I just personally find it a bit dumb to find someone criminally responsible when they thought they were doing the right thing, whether the law agrees is something else entirely.

 

[Jebusman]

It should also be noted that this wasn't their only child. They have other children. Who likely only got lucky that they managed to survive this long.

They also pleaded not guilty to the crime. This is very much a family that hasn't learned their lesson.

 

[FuuRe]

The negligence is right there, sure, they could use all the snake oil of the world to see if it helps, but unless you aren't keeping track of progress you can realize things aren't working as intended, so you try the next thing right away, because your son's life is infinitely more important than your fears and paranoias.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No one would specifically have to "file a complaint" for it to be a criminal trial. The death of a toddler of meningitis is uncommon enough that the police had some questions for them as it happened. Once combing through the testamony, the Crown (aka the government) determined that the death of the child was due to negligence on part of the parents, and filed criminal charges.

I don't know how it is in the States, but in Canada it's a crime to be negligent to giving the necessities of life to anyone in your direct care who is unable, for any reason, to care for themselves. Whether it be because of age, mental or phyiscal ability, etc.

It gets murky when the parents "believed" that they were in fact giving those necessities, but people have argued before that ignorance isn't a valid defence.

I'm sure this rang alarm bells at the hospital and would have started a police investigation. You can't just walk into a hospital with a extremely neglected dead child.

Thanks for the replies, if I understand correctly it's the legal and judicial processes working normally (and properly) which caused the charges to be brought against the parents. Still, this appears to be more a case of regulatory failure than criminal negligence, although I can't be sure. For example, where was the state when the parents failed to have their child vaccinated at four months? Is there any part of the ministry of health or social services responsible for following up on such things?

 

[Quixzlizx]

Ehhh I wouldn't say as flawed, it's quite a bit different from affluenza which strikes me as just a shield rich people like to use to get away with shit. I just personally find it a bit dumb to find someone criminally responsible when they thought they were doing the right thing, whether the law agrees is something else entirely.

So you'd be OK with not punishing someone who goes around killing Muslims because he truly believes they're all terrorists?

You need to be close enough to society's ethical consensus to not be dangerous.

 

[23qwerty]

So you'd be OK with not punishing someone who goes around killing Muslims because he truly believes they're all terrorists?

You need to be close enough to society's ethical consensus to not be dangerous.

As if that's even remotely similar lmao, cmon now

so many fallacies here I can't even deal

 

[Quixzlizx]

As if that's even remotely similar lmao, cmon now

The logic is extremely similar. I used a hyperbolic example to illustrate a point.

Edit: If the point is lost on you, it's that there are a lot of idiots and lunatics out there who all think they are doing the right thing as they engage in antisocial behavior.

 

[Corronchilejano]

You know how we call natural remedies that work? Remedies.

 

[23qwerty]

I used a hyperbolic example to illustrate a point.

 

[Jebusman]

Thanks for the replies, if I understand correctly it's the legal and judicial processes working normally (and properly) which caused the charges to be brought against the parents. Still, this appears to be more a case of regulatory failure than criminal negligence, although I can't be sure. For example, where was the state when the parents failed to have their child vaccinated at four months? Is there any part of the ministry of health or social services responsible for following up on such things?

Alberta, the province this is all from, I don't believe has any mandatory vaccination program, and have been fairly resistant to it. Alberta has traditionally been a real conservative stronghold in politics, at least 90% of the MPs (think your Representatives) from there belong to the Conservative party.

Although hilariously the LOCAL government of Alberta (aka not the Alberta branch of the Federal government or however that works out) is now NDP, who are traditionally center left, so it's even more sad that they actually can't get anything like this done.

 

[23qwerty]

Alberta, the province this is all from, I don't believe has any mandatory vaccination program, and have been fairly resistant to it. Alberta has traditionally been a real conservative stronghold in politics, at least 90% of the MPs (think your Representatives) from there belong to the Conservative party.

Yep, not surprised at all that this happened in Alberta

 

[scogoth]

As someone who had meningitis and a brother who believes in naturopathy, this article hits too close to home. Stop thinking modern medicine is run by the devil and poisons you. fucking olive root extract is not what cures a sick child. Spinal taps, intravenous drugs and anti-vitals/antibiotics cures your sick child.

These parents are feeling the worst pain in their life from losing their child and I hope they get thrown in jail for letting it happen.

 

[Neato_Jinkins]

How ignorant. You're essentially making the argument that conviction and good intentions are all that's required to absolve a person of a crime. Magical thinking that leads to misery is fine so long as your third eye can peer into their soul and find it spotless.

Shucks, how could Chairman Mao have known burying seeds too deep into the ground would lead to famine-level crop yields? He's a good guy at heart.

 

[opoth]

Yep, not surprised at all that this happened in Alberta

It's the Texas of Canada.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Your "rebuttals" have been surprisingly dank meme-filled for someone who is so concerned about "fallacies."

How about an honor killing? A person committing one of those believes he is doing the right thing.

 

[23qwerty]

Your "rebuttals" have been surprisingly dank meme-filled for someone who is so concerned about "fallacies."

How about an honor killing? A person committing one of those believes he is doing the right thing.

Man I use one reaction gif and get accused of being a dank memer..

It's the Texas of Canada.

No doubt

How ignorant. You're essentially making the argument that conviction and good intentions are all that's required to absolve a person of a crime. Magical thinking that leads to misery is fine so long as your third eye can peer into their soul and find it spotless.

Shucks, how could Chairman Mao have known burying seeds too deep into the ground would lead to famine-level crop yields? He's a good guy at heart.

Totally man



ANYWAY
surprise surprise someone can have different reactions to different things, one child dying as a result of the parents thinking they're doing the right thing =/= serial killing and genocide in my mind, maybe it does in yours.. but OKAY

 

[Jebusman]

Man I use one reaction gif and get accused of being a dank memer..

Honestly your meme isn't even that dank. Like on the 0 - Dank scale, I would only give this like half a puff.

 

[fastford58]

I have personally seen many cases of stage 4 cancers that could have been dealt with early if not for bad advice from naturalpath/homeopath "doctors".

While some herbal and natural medicine is great for common maladies, do not, for the love of all things holy, try to treat serious illness with bad advice.

 

[FartOfWar]

Man I use one reaction gif and get accused of being a dank memer..



No doubt



Totally man



ANYWAY
surprise surprise someone can have different reactions to different things, one child dying as a result of the parents thinking they're doing the right thing =/= serial killing and genocide in my mind, maybe it does in yours.. but OKAY

Good intentions resulting in avoidable death ought never be confused with good intentions resulting in avoidable death.

 

[LostCaress]

The parents were criminally negligent, but how is a court going to find them guilty when it represents a country that allows the existence of such pseudoscience?

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

If there could be a law forbidding ignorant people from having children, in such a way that it was actually targeted against (and applicable to) the right kind of ignorant people, I might be for it, as horrible as that sounds. What makes this case more problematic in my eyes is that it appears the state had multiple opportunities to intervene and either couldn't or didn't, despite the fact that there should have been enough information in this child's medical records (not to mention those of his siblings, assuming they were treated similarly) to raise alarm bells way before this incident began.

For example, say there's a small Amish community living a pre industrial lifestyle and a child dies of a similarly preventable disease. You could definitely charge the parents with criminal negligence, but the bigger issue would be that the state had allowed this community to continue to operate on such terms to begin with.

 

[Neato_Jinkins]

ANYWAY
surprise surprise someone can have different reactions to different things, one child dying as a result of the parents thinking they're doing the right thing =/= serial killing and genocide in my mind, maybe it does in yours.. but OKAY

it's cool man, just get a mod to give you a tag indicating your inability to make even the simplest of intellectual leaps and then we'll all expect less of you.