SLB1904
Banned
Care to elaborate
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(*) Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer at Crytek contrasts the next Gen consoles in interview (Up: Tweets/Article removed)
- Thread starter Apollo Helios
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rnlval
Member
F
Foamy
Unconfirmed Member
But don't forget that PlayStation does VR and Microsoft consoles don't.I know that Xbox series X is probably more powerfull than the PS5 on paper, BUT lets not forget how from the 4000 developers surveyd for the 2020 GDC a staggering 38% said that was more interested as a developer in Ps5 compared with a 25% of the xbox.
There are some developers who are really amped about VR so I would say that sways an extra 5% towards Sony.
CJY
Banned
It's also an expression in Farsi meaning "ridiculously fast". It's not exactly literal. Like someone saying "less than no time"
Smoke6
Member
Like dude is a developer that came well after that game released! Like he is gonna help hold a grudge for a game and company he didn’t work for at the time?
talk about spinning!
JustP_Gaming
Banned
You're really going to run with one person's point of view and base your whole opinion about the Ps5 on this? Have you even heard of this person before this article? Don't do this, not like this.Holy shit. I thought this was some clickbait article, but going through it, it really does sound like the PS5 is the better overall platform. XSX is stronger and will push better resolutions, but the way PS5 is built, it’s ease of programming for developers, and the overall performance, it’s going to be the system of choice for developers and will be the better performing in the long run. What a fucking megaton.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Any dev this whole next-gen that says anything positive about the PS5 will be treated like this by "certain" gamers.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Now you're getting it. I do wonder why Sony didn't just keep the GPU at it actual 9.2 instead of overclocking it into a fire hazard. 9.2 would make it even more powerful, right?
CJY
Banned
Thanks for clarifying. Some people are real sticklers for the details. I like details too, and the translation isn't great. Maybe you could verify to accuracy of what's in the OP?
GHG
Member
Huh? I wasn't talking about what you said, I was referring to what the interviewee said.
For example from the opening few questions:
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Deeper Underground
Member
Not to stir trouble, but
So you’re saying I shouldn’t take the opinion of someone who has been in the industry for years and currently works as an engineer for Crytek more seriously over a random Twitter user whose dad used to work for Sony? Ok guy.
So you’re saying I shouldn’t take the opinion of someone who has been in the industry for years and currently works as an engineer for Crytek more seriously over a random Twitter user whose dad used to work for Sony? Ok guy.
Little Chicken
Member
The damage control on Resetera; to think people like Thuway don't even get paid for it
CJY
Banned
You could edit it and the OP could replace it with your version.
Metroiddarks
Member
Say he is wrong is not an argument. We are going to prove this points when more third parties AAA dev talk (devs in the engine side)
and with the firsts games (not tech demo).
Optimize a game/program in a low level is always an advantage if you don't believe; edit a video in an IMac in Final Cut compare to
Windows with similar spec.
FeiRR
Banned
I'll take a guess: Gamepass and some publishing policies we haven't learnt about yet (maybe pushing devs into support of the whole Xbox platform?) Something like indie dev exclusivity clause from early this gen.
Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
While i don't think PS5 is as powerful I can't stand Xbox fanboys trying to make this seem like its a big gap like Xb1 to PS4. The machines ended up even in almost every department with a small differential in GPU and SSD speed. We got what we wanted which is a massive leap from the previous gen and a small difference between the two
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Here are the facts, indisputable facts.
- A GPU with higher CU count which amounts to the same teraflops as one with lesser CU's and higher frequency is still more capable, it will perform better. The Series X not only meets the PlayStation 5's peak teraflops with its CU count, it exceeds it by a minimum of 1.87 teraflops. This GPU is immensely more capable, even if the Series X had 44 active CU's at its present 1,825Mhz it would still exceed the capabilities of the PlayStation 5's GPU.
- The CPU picture is just as clear, at peak frequency the PlayStation 5 CPU operates at 3.5Ghz with SMT, the Series X operates at a fixed 3.6Ghz with SMT, 3.8Ghz with SMT disabled. So even boosted to peak frequency the PlayStation 5 CPU still falls short.
- The memory setup while not as clear can be made extremely clear, neither system will reach or even exceed 10GB's of VRAM usage, the rest of the system needs RAM for the operation of a game, not just the GPU. As a clear example the RTX 2080 Super only has 8GB's of VRAM, the 2080 Ti a substantially more powerful GPU has only 11GB's of VRAM. Neither system will even require that capacity. The 10GB's of GDDR6 at 560GB/s in the Series X can cache and flush the same amount of data in the same amount of time as 12.5GB's of Sony's memory at 448Gb/s.
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Deeper Underground
Member
The damage control on Resetera; to think people like Thuway don't even get paid for it
That’s funny. It’s been nothing, but Sony fans trying to discuss the information and the same usual suspects coming in trying to downplay it. Probably from the Xbox discord.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Except they haven't
Love the selective rounding of numbers here coupled with clear bullshit.
There is nothing to "meltdown" over in this.
CJY
Banned
He's not like that guy with the dolphin game. He represents Crytek. It's in the title.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Okay, you have to give context to that survey, though. It's not something that was just given its responses solely on the perspective of the hardware performance or ease of development. You're dealing with one system that's a follow-up to the leader with 110+ million units sold, and the other that's following up on a distant 2nd-place system with a bit over 40+ million sold.
I.e that survey had as much influence from the perspective of financial prospects as it did from tech-related ones, devs are always going to have some vested interest in a platform they feel will be beneficial for their publisher's bottom line because the publisher is who funds the developer in the first place to be able to develop games at all.
And, why not take MS on their word? Are we not taking Cerny on his word when it comes to PS5 theoretical performance metrics? It's a bit disingenuous to take one on their word yet cast doubt on the other IMHO. Also again, we're dealing with a guy from Crytek here; I don't think they may be the best neutral dev perspective on this considering prior history.
It'd be like if a Platinum dev did this interview and gave similar responses; it would be a somewhat compromised interview because you kinda know where they might be coming from off the bat.
I didn't say "all of these devs", did I? Just mentioned Crytek explicitly here because, yes, they do have a bit of a rough patch with MS. We know this. It is documented. Therefore it's a possible factor into their perspective. Same goes for Jonathan Blow. Same probably goes for that ex-Sony dev (who was championing XSX).
You aren't asking anything conductive here. It's natural to assume if there's a possible angle to this given a past relationship dynamic, particularly if something there went sour. There's a concept of expert witness integrity in the judicial world, but that isn't the only place it is applicable.
Who's this "we"? Dude, you are not a developer, and this isn't a sports team. It's not political party. It's not an "us vs. them" bullshit thing, or it shouldn't be, anyway. But that's your mentality when you talk like that.
Also, what makes you think XSX won't support low-level programming? That's one of the things DX12 (Ultimate even moreso) are pushing for. And, FWIW too much to-the-metal low-level access can hamstring you in BC solutions, just look at the compromise Sony had to take in going with a 36 CU GPU in PS5 (apparently it was either 36 CUs, 48 CUs (Cerny's hypothetical example), or 72 CUs :S).
Same with the memory pool setup in XSX (the 336 GB/s bandwidth pool to accommodate XBO X BC seemingly; if that's true, though, then I would think that means the entire 2 GB chips can be accessed at that speed because the X had 12 GB of physical memory, not 6 GB. Might also suggest the XSX can access the 2 GB chips full memory at 56 GB/s across the board, too. Which might put to rest one of the arguments of bandwidth and physical memory contention going around, assuming this is actually the case).
Isn't MS paying devs to be featured on Gamepass? And from what it seems, it's generally for games that have already been out for a good while (other than MS's own 1st-party).
And 3rd-party devs aren't being forced to support the One and X IIRC, that's just a mandate MS set for their own teams (and hopefully one they're reconsidering or thinking of only doing through Xcloud, I hope. Still doesn't fully sit right with me, that).
And no I'm not trying to call this interview the equivalent of someone standing trail and committing some type of perjury. Just wanted to paint a simple analogy to why it's sometimes valid to question the integrity of some of these type of dev comments and interviews at this stage of the next-gen pipeline, that's all.
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TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Photoshop jim ryan on tyson and phil on the knocked out one lol
Little Chicken
Member
Deeper Underground
Member
Do you have evidence of them plotting FUD on GAF and REE too? I would love to see it.
Neo_game
Member
Ali Salehi | Programmer
the online portfolio of a robotic researcher and programmer in Frankfurt, Germany.
lordhippo.com
Rightisright
Banned
I am talking about his comments about the GPU. I changed PS5 for Xbox One S, and XSX for PS4. As you can tell, it's Rubbish logic he was using.The core bottleneck of the OG Xbox One was the slower RAM and more specifically the ESRAM.
Xbox One - ESRAM & 720P - Why It's Causing A Resolution Bottleneck - Analysis
The ESRAM of the Xbox One is perhaps the single largest issue developers are facing right now when porting games over to the machine. Leaks and rumors saywww.redgamingtech.com
It was nothing to do with the GPU or the CPU as to why we saw what we did in side by side comparisons between the two consoles.
Little Chicken
Member
Not locally on this laptop. Just some old screenshots of Thuway, Expy and Ren praying that the PS5 is 13TF, wanting Era users banned, etc. I'm not going to post them because it's off topic and I don't want to continue this ridiculous conversation any further - not in reference to you, but the subject matter.
CJY
Banned
So many heads on REEE are trying to downplay the interview as speculation...
but why would he be under NDA unless he has knowledge of the workings of the systems?
I think it's clear Crytek are working with Sony. There is no way MS would allow this. The bridge has likely turned to ashes.
but why would he be under NDA unless he has knowledge of the workings of the systems?
I think it's clear Crytek are working with Sony. There is no way MS would allow this. The bridge has likely turned to ashes.
TheGreatYosh
Banned
I took it as him saying there are benefits to less CU's at higher clock. Especially if you design your system right or not so right in the more CU case.
That's not exactly what we're seeing though. The Series X is more powerful specs wise but there's a constant stream of posters claiming that the PS5 has some magical advantages that make it more capable somehow and effectively more powerful overall.
That kind of spin is surely going to fire up fanboys on both sides. The thing is that it'll also draw the attention of people who aren't necessarily passionate about one side or the other, but who find those claims to be misleading or outright deceptive.
CJY
Banned
How did you get accepted then?
benjohn
Member
I have edited almost half of it and am working on the rest. I'm not really good at English though. If there's any questions I'll be glad to answer
INTRO
The hardware specifications of the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X were officially announced a few weeks ago by Sony and Microsoft, and Digital Foundry had the opportunity to take a deep technical look at what we expect. Although there aren't many games for consoles yet, and we don't know much about their overall performance and user experience, the two companies are constantly competing in technical and complex debates that no one but engineers and programmers can understand. Providing the deepest technical information is not avoided this time around.
As we tracked down the information and read the specifications and were searching for more information on the matter, it seemed better to talk with an engineer and programmer at Crytek, one of the world's most tech-savvy companies, with a powerful gaming engine. That's why I called Ali Salehi, a rendering engineer from Crytek, and asked him, as an expert, to answer our questions about Xbox Traflops adavtages over PS5 and the power of the consoles, and to comment on which one is more powerful. Convincing answers with simple and understandable explanations that were contrary to expectations and numbers on paper.
In the following, you will read the conversation between Mohsen Vafnejad and Shayan Ziaei with Ali Salehi about the hardware specifications of the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X.
INTERVIEW
[Questions bolded, answers not]
Vijayato: In short, what is the job of a rendering engineer in a gaming company?
Ali Salehi: The technical visual section of each game is what we do. That means supporting new consoles, optimizing current algorithms, troubleshooting current ones, implementing new technology and features like RayTracing are somethings we do.
What is the significance of Teraflops, and does higher Teraflops mean a console is stronger?
Teraflops shows that this processor can be as efficient if it is in the best and most ideal state possible. The Teraflops figure is in ideal and theoretical conditions. In practice, however, the graphics card and console are a complex entities that rarely get to their fullest potential. Several elements must work together in harmony to provide each part of the feed to the other and output one part to another. If each of these elements fails to work properly, the efficiency of the other part will decrease. A good example of this is the PlayStation 3 console. Because of its SPUs, the PlayStation 3 had a lot more power on paper than the Xbox 360. But in practice, because of its complex architecture and bottlenecked Memory and other problems, you never reached the peak of efficiency.
There is an image here with following
[Woes of PlayStation 3
The PlayStation 3 had a hard time running multi-platform games compared to the Xbox 360. Red Dead Redemption and GTA IV, for example, ran at 720p on the Microsoft console, but the PlayStation 3 had a poorer output and eventually up scaled the resolution to 720p. But Sony's own studios have been able to offer more detailed games such as The Last of Us and Uncharted 2 and 3 due to their greater familiarity with the console and the development of special software accessibilty.
That is why it is not a good idea to base our opinions only on numbers. But if all the parts in the Xbox X-Series can work optimally and the GPU works in its own peak, which is not possible in practice, we can achieve 12 Tflops. In addition to all this, we also have a software section. The example is the advent of of Vulkan and DirectX 12. The hardware did not change, but due to the change in the architecture of the software, the hardware could be better put in use.
The same can be said for consoles. Sony runs PlayStation 5 on its own operating system, but Microsoft has put a customized version of Windows on the Xbox Series X. The two are very different. Because Sony has developed exclusive software for the PlayStation 5, it will definitely give developers much more capabilities than Microsoft, which has almost the same directX PC and for its consoles.
How have you experienced working with both consoles and how do you evaluate them?
I can't say anything right now about my own work, but I'm quoting others who have made a public statement. Developers say that the PlayStation 5 is the easiest console they’ve ever coded for. so they can reach the console's peak performance. In terms of software, coding on the PlayStation 5 is extremely simple and has many features which leave a lot of options for developers. All in all, the PlayStation 5 is a better console.
The Shift
Banned
Evidence isn't required, they just have to be fanboys of any stripe - the rest takes care of itself.
slade
Member
Another article from a developer that quickly gets shifted on by Xbox fanboys. But what's more interesting is how as page by page goes by all the Xbox fans start attacking the PS5 and its fans and say they're delusional. It becomes less about the article and more about Sony Ponies and how delusional they are
It's almost as if you guys gathered together somewhere and came up with this 'master plan.'
Anyway, all BS aside, where exactly are the XSX developers in all this? MS has no issues with showing their console. I know because the Xbox fan's won't shut up about how transparent and good and pure MS is. Meanwhile, Sony has done one tech talk about their console and developers, who that talk was catered to BTW, are coming out of the woodwork to talk up the PS5.
Why not the same for XSX?
I know we had that one thread with the 3 developers, who turned out to be:
1) An Xbox developer making bootleg Ecco the Dolphin
2) A former Sony guy
3) Probably Phil Spencer in drag
That's not a good track record. And it shows that MS still has an uphill battle when it comes to getting games on their system. They might eventually come but Sony have the better relationships in the industry. Look at how many more 3rd party games are PS4 exclusive just because. Sony will get the games first and that is all that matters to most gamers.
MS has to bring the XSX in under 100 dollars less then PS5 just to compete in N. America. They would need a fire sale if they want the world.
It's almost as if you guys gathered together somewhere and came up with this 'master plan.'
Anyway, all BS aside, where exactly are the XSX developers in all this? MS has no issues with showing their console. I know because the Xbox fan's won't shut up about how transparent and good and pure MS is. Meanwhile, Sony has done one tech talk about their console and developers, who that talk was catered to BTW, are coming out of the woodwork to talk up the PS5.
Why not the same for XSX?
I know we had that one thread with the 3 developers, who turned out to be:
1) An Xbox developer making bootleg Ecco the Dolphin
2) A former Sony guy
3) Probably Phil Spencer in drag
That's not a good track record. And it shows that MS still has an uphill battle when it comes to getting games on their system. They might eventually come but Sony have the better relationships in the industry. Look at how many more 3rd party games are PS4 exclusive just because. Sony will get the games first and that is all that matters to most gamers.
MS has to bring the XSX in under 100 dollars less then PS5 just to compete in N. America. They would need a fire sale if they want the world.
CJY
Banned
yep, pretty cool. well done.
CJY
Banned
Reads really well! You don't have to fix the rest if you don't want to, you''re not getting paid
SupremeHoodie
Member
He sorta sounds like a PlayStation fanboy if I’m being honest.
Chiggs
Gold Member
Still better than a nobody from a has-been studio that hasn't put out anything of note in quite some time.
The comments on Windows and DirectX at the end give it away. Hey, to each their own. But it just goes to show you that developers are hardly these high-minded deities of light and wonder that see the world through an unbiased lens.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
MS doesn't need damage control.
GHG
Member
This is a stretch in my opinion. Anecdotal, but i'm a web developer and when I get asked about whether I'm excited about a new technology to work with a lot of it comes down to how easy it is to make my ideas a reality within the given framework rather than "how much money I'm going to make with this technology". Traditionally I've worked with Django+React as my stack and I'm currently learning Rails+Vue and I'm currently excited because I can already see how much more efficient I can potentially be using the new frameworks.
I guess my point is it's the publishers who tend to be more concerned about the numbers side whereas the developers will look at it from the perspective of "I just want to make cool shit with as little friction as possible".
As for not taking MS on their word regarding directX...:
Adam Sessler & Albert Penello on the Xbox One (Interview)
He meant graphics. Did you see Infamous:Second Son? I have seen Infamous... it looks next gen, but so does Ryse visually, and to some people even more so than Infamous which looks good, but at no point does anyone feel like Infamous makes Ryse look a league apart, both are serious eye candy...
We've kind of been here before.
The reason it doesn't work is because the PS4 was a system without any significant bottlenecks so even if the clockspeeds could have made a difference we will never know due to the ESRAM shitting up the place. It's not just about the GPU and CPU and he makes that clear throughout the interview.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Another article from a developer that quickly gets shifted on by Xbox fanboys. But what's more interesting is how as page by page goes by all the Xbox fans start attacking the PS5 and its fans and say they're delusional. It becomes less about the article and more about Sony Ponies and how delusional they are
It's almost as if you guys gathered together somewhere and came up with this 'master plan.'
Anyway, all BS aside, where exactly are the XSX developers in all this? MS has no issues with showing their console. I know because the Xbox fan's won't shut up about how transparent and good and pure MS is. Meanwhile, Sony has done one tech talk about their console and developers, who that talk was catered to BTW, are coming out of the woodwork to talk up the PS5.
Why not the same for XSX?
I know we had that one thread with the 3 developers, who turned out to be:
1) An Xbox developer making bootleg Ecco the Dolphin
2) A former Sony guy
3) Probably Phil Spencer in drag
That's not a good track record. And it shows that MS still has an uphill battle when it comes to getting games on their system. They might eventually come but Sony have the better relationships in the industry. Look at how many more 3rd party games are PS4 exclusive just because. Sony will get the games first and that is all that matters to most gamers.
MS has to bring the XSX in under 100 dollars less then PS5 just to compete in N. America. They would need a fire sale if they want the world.
Because MS didn't do a reveal event that garnered massive backlash from their core constituency (regular gamers) and generated confusion and disappointment among the the way Sony did. Whether you personally liked the Road to PS5 event or not (I did), it's pretty obvious that it didn't go over too well with actual gamers who were excited to hear about PS5 and may've expected a lot more since they literally promoted the event on their social media accounts.
That's given PS5 a bit of an image problem with those gamers, something XSX doesn't have at the moment, and we have devs (mainly Sony devs) coming out with these quotes. If not them, then 3rd-parties who have some timed exclusivity lined up for PS5, maybe getting funding through from Sony, etc. All you need to do is see the timing of these quotes and interviews and how they're coming AFTER the Road to PS5 event (and the reception that got from general gamers, including Sony's own fans) to see what part of this is about, i.e readjusting public perception of the system online. With devs making these quotes, they give a stamp of authority and authenticity. This is sociological and psychological stuff here not exclusive to gaming, btw.
As to your other points, well that's kind of obvious. Certainly MS has an uphill battle, but you're extrapolating the wrong takeaway from this particular interview. That sounds more like your own notion or take piggybacking off of something that can help substantiate it, even if you had to force it so.
This is a stretch in my opinion. Anecdotal, but i'm a web developer and when I get asked about whether I'm excited about a new technology to work with a lot of it comes down to how easy it is to make my ideas a reality within the given framework rather than "how much money I'm going to make with this technology". Traditionally I've worked with Django+React as my stack and I'm currently learning Rails+Vue and I'm currently excited because I can already see how much more efficient I can potentially be using the new frameworks.
I guess my point is it's the publishers who tend to be more concerned about the numbers side whereas the developers will look at it from the perspective of "I just want to make cool shit with as little friction as possible".
As for not taking MS on their word regarding directX...:
Adam Sessler & Albert Penello on the Xbox One (Interview)
He meant graphics. Did you see Infamous:Second Son? I have seen Infamous... it looks next gen, but so does Ryse visually, and to some people even more so than Infamous which looks good, but at no point does anyone feel like Infamous makes Ryse look a league apart, both are serious eye candy...www.neogaf.com
We've kind of been here before.
The reason it doesn't work is because the PS4 was a system without any significant bottlenecks so even if the clockspeeds could have made a difference we will never know due to the ESRAM shitting up the place. It's not just about the GPU and CPU and he makes that clear throughout the interview.
That's why I explicitly mentioned it was a mixture of both. Your own case a developer may see you lean that way but that won't be the case for all developers. Some of them do put financial practicality somewhat highly, because ultimately video games are as much a business as they are an art form.
Your reason for not taking MS on their word is...odd to say the least. That's something from several years ago. It's a similar thing to people who still clung to PS3 problems when trying to express their caution or disliking for PS4 (and that did happen). At some point you have to acknowledge that things have changed, be it management, company culture/division culture, policies etc. and start looking at things from that perspective.
IMO I can see that change has mostly manifested within the Xbox division; holding them to the same standards as 2013 Xbox division is doing them a big disservice.
Yeah, this is where I find myself, actually. I'm actually quite impressed with both systems and what differences they have while still being very capable systems.
But if I'm being honest, it's getting a tad difficulty to actually publicly voice what aspects I appreciate about PS5 because the amount of misdirection and misinterpretation regarding XSX just seems me naturally try correcting that. Actually, even in this thread I gave PS5 a mention of a strong suit when it came to the memory setup, but it's not like I had to dog the XSX to do so. And I am keeping certain perspectives on the table in that regard with both systems.
There's more I can probably say on this, but it's getting late and some of that talk would dive into psychological theory/babble. Ain't nobody got time for that.
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