It's an interesting correlation to make as the two countries are exceedingly different in relation to cultural make-up, landscape, and sheer population. This is of course ignoring differences in sheer policing strategies as well, and the war metaphors alike (war on drugs). It would be further intriguing to see UK LEOs patrol in, for example, an urban city in California and see how their training handles certain scenarios.
American police killed more people in March than the UK has since 1900
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timetokill
Banned
To the cops, they're all animals.
AstroNut325
Member
This. No amount of consequences for police are going to result in any meaningful change.
But the pop of America is only like 5 times greater than the UK.
So even if the US had killed more in one month than the UK in a year it would be bad. Let alone in 100 fucking years.
There is a higher chance that criminals in the US will be armed. There is also a much higher chance that the police in America are jumpy as all shit and are too gun happy around minorities.
soulassssns
Banned
Exactly how much more crime do we have in the US than the UK?
I'm not to sure about the UK but there are nieghborhoods in my home town (just 1 city) that I would never walk thru during the day (I wouldnt dare drive thru during the night) because I am a white male. From the outside looking in I would say I would walk thru 95% of the entirety of the UK.
I'm not to sure about the UK but there are nieghborhoods in my home town (just 1 city) that I would never walk thru during the day (I wouldnt dare drive thru during the night) because I am a white male. From the outside looking in I would say I would walk thru 95% of the entirety of the UK.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Sounds like the UK isn't killing enough scum.
Yes, the more heavily armed populace is definitely a large factor in this discrepancy, but it's not like that discredits the statistic or anything. It's part of the problem that needs to be solved, because the current situation is not acceptable.
Do police organizations/unions do much in the way of lobbying for gun control? I would think we'd be great allies on that issue, given how guns put both their lives in greater danger and the lives of the people they end up shooting because of that fear. Maybe they are lobbying for it and I just haven't noticed it though.
Do police organizations/unions do much in the way of lobbying for gun control? I would think we'd be great allies on that issue, given how guns put both their lives in greater danger and the lives of the people they end up shooting because of that fear. Maybe they are lobbying for it and I just haven't noticed it though.
ambientric
Banned
Made me wonder how many people Rayland Givens has shot and killed over five episodes of Justified, turns out it is 19.
While I like the show, does make you wonder about the sickness of US culture, where a TV shows hero/lead is a mass murderer.
How much of Americas homicidal police force is due to a cultural tradition of glorification of violence, where killing is equated to being heroic/macho.
I imagine on your average US police officer, (low IQ, limited education) it has an effect.
While I like the show, does make you wonder about the sickness of US culture, where a TV shows hero/lead is a mass murderer.
How much of Americas homicidal police force is due to a cultural tradition of glorification of violence, where killing is equated to being heroic/macho.
I imagine on your average US police officer, (low IQ, limited education) it has an effect.
This is anecdotal so treat it as such, but LEOs are typically huge advocates for more responsible gun ownership, not limiting citizens access to guns. I have yet to run into a single one of my partners who state they are for gun control.
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
I really don't know how to read this graph. Are the values better when their higher or lower?
The American public would be bored to death by a typical night as a LEO.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Yet more proof that we need smarter cops.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
To be fair, this isn't fair.
maniac-kun
Member
Well then its time to give away those guns for the american citizens. They only make the situations worse.
CadetMahoney
Member
This is what happens when civilians (aka bad guys) don't have guns:
http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015...h-a-tin-of-pilchards-and-pretends-its-a-bomb/
http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015...h-a-tin-of-pilchards-and-pretends-its-a-bomb/
Link
The Autumn Wind
You realize those are the same thing for most people, despite what the NRA tries to tell you.
They are broad terms, indeed, but they branch off when discussed in specific contexts. For example, responsible use of a firearm versus complete removal of said firearm from the consumer market.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It's a nice thought. It would be nice to be able to fly like Superman, too.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
You're stating the obvious here.
I think your biggest issue is that people already believe they are being responsible in the way they use and store their firearms.
You have a nation that's armed itself to fight the boogeyman and won't cede any ground until he's dead.
People complaining that the US has 5 times the population of the UK, as if that's supposed to excuse things are nuts. Take Canada, throw in all of Western Europe, and add Japan and Australia, and the US would still have more cops killing of civilians. There's something seriously messed up in the States.
Things that almost every other law enforcement agency in the developed world could handle non violently, end in beatings and shooting in the US. They can't even deal with dogs that aren't doing anything with out shooting them.
Things that almost every other law enforcement agency in the developed world could handle non violently, end in beatings and shooting in the US. They can't even deal with dogs that aren't doing anything with out shooting them.
You can throw a billy club only so far...
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the homicides and whether or not firearms were involved, and the validity of said firearms of the users.
Yup. Hard to shoot people when you only got a billy club.
Unparalleled_Mediocrity
Neo Member
This is one of the most irritating threads ive ever read on GAF.
First many many people use the excuse America has a higher population. 5 times higher. Nowhere near enough to create the discrepancies shown in the OP.
Then people start making excuses about how the culture is the different. That's the point. That's the problem.
Face up to your problems.
First many many people use the excuse America has a higher population. 5 times higher. Nowhere near enough to create the discrepancies shown in the OP.
Then people start making excuses about how the culture is the different. That's the point. That's the problem.
Face up to your problems.
Vicetrailia
Banned
We use this excuse for everything that doesn't look good. It's the automatic hand-wave response.
I really wish we would.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Well, UK used to send its criminals to live in its colonies, so this makes perfect sense.
When a pair of UK cops shot a known violent criminal and scumbag who *may* have had a gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan
There was fucking rioting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots
Although to be fair the riots weren't protests it was more the chav bottom feeders using it as an excuse to be dicks. But even then the police managed to resist shooting them.
Darknight34
Member
Well... hmm..this did make me laugh.
Nah bro there's no problem. It's just different....
Lol.
Even if you account for size I'm sure you'll see a big difference. People just don't want to admit to a problem.
PeskyToaster
Member
Wait, is the OP using a Wikipedia list that says "This list is incomplete" for the comparison?
What if a police unit was used in war?
What about police operations in Ireland or the colonies? The Wikipedia article (lol) may ignore them but should we? Too much about the sources in the OP are ringing warning bells, though I could be wrong.
I actually don't think it's anything uniquely wrong with America. Sounds too much like a 'special path' theory to me when these type of issues are present throughout history.
What if a police unit was used in war?
What about police operations in Ireland or the colonies? The Wikipedia article (lol) may ignore them but should we? Too much about the sources in the OP are ringing warning bells, though I could be wrong.
I actually don't think it's anything uniquely wrong with America. Sounds too much like a 'special path' theory to me when these type of issues are present throughout history.
IISANDERII
Member
Yeah but 10 million times more freedom, ensured by the wonderful prison industrial complex.
I don't agree with the statistic. Comparing UK and U.S with vastly different cultures doesn't strike me as a good statistic.
I am sure the death toll could be lowered, but I don't see 1,000 a year (unfortunately there is no hard statistic as police don't keep them) killed by police as a "systemic issue" as many of you put it when there are more than 1 million police in a 310+ million population.
Police are already underfunded and have a manpower problem, increasing requirements (such as taking guns from police) will only add to those issues without addressing what concerns police officers in U.S.
Have anyone actually went through that list to see if it was necessary to kill the person? I went through several and found that many have individuals that are armed or appeared to be armed (pellet guns). U.K police do not have to deal with an armed populace as much as U.S. That alone makes for a skewed statistic.
U.S also can not be compared to Germany either. Actually, trying to compare U.S with most Western Europe countries is false comparison in my eyes. I love how people choose U.K, Germany, Sweden, and Finland most when comparing U.S to Europe lol.
I am sure the death toll could be lowered, but I don't see 1,000 a year (unfortunately there is no hard statistic as police don't keep them) killed by police as a "systemic issue" as many of you put it when there are more than 1 million police in a 310+ million population.
Police are already underfunded and have a manpower problem, increasing requirements (such as taking guns from police) will only add to those issues without addressing what concerns police officers in U.S.
Have anyone actually went through that list to see if it was necessary to kill the person? I went through several and found that many have individuals that are armed or appeared to be armed (pellet guns). U.K police do not have to deal with an armed populace as much as U.S. That alone makes for a skewed statistic.
U.S also can not be compared to Germany either. Actually, trying to compare U.S with most Western Europe countries is false comparison in my eyes. I love how people choose U.K, Germany, Sweden, and Finland most when comparing U.S to Europe lol.
Any Questions
Member
A very intelligent point well made. Our police offices are very highly trained.
I also believe that most incidents involving the public at large and where the police have been called out or are policing a crowd/ demonstration our police face a verbal hostility which in most other countries would result in instant execution or arrest.
They stoically hold the line while folks go fucking mental in their faces doing all sort of bat shit crazy stuff. Add alcohol and boom it's even more mayhem.
Folk here also push their limits and once a boundary had been crossed the police deal with the person properly and with care.
They don't tend to have power trips and if anything are ridiculed by the folks here on the UK. It's a bit disrespectful IMO.
When guns are involved or its really violent the firearms experts are called out. These officers are heavily trained and tend to shoot only if it's absolutely necessary. There are of course mistakes and I refer to the poor chap from Brazil who got shot entering the tubes as a mistaken terrorist.
We had a public enquiry into the incident which went all the way to the top.
The single biggest influencing factor is the access to firearms. Most people don't have access to handguns and the vast majority of licenced weapons here are shotguns. You walk about with one of those on the street and you won't get far before someone in a blue uniform is pointing a semi automatic at you.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Yeah, why don't we get comparisons to Somalia and Afganistan instead.
I'm not sure if this is a parody post or not but just in case. I have no idea which European countries you'd want to look at instead for police brutality? Latveria, Markovia and Brutopia maybe?
U.K., Sweden, Germany, and Finland are European countries that are counted to be part of the so called 'West' with shared cultural values with USA. Are you saying we should maybe compare USA with countries like Kongo or Burma? Is US not a western developed nation? Finland is actually high up in the list of homicides and guns when you look at Europe in total. It's just a question of attitudes as well. In here a police is seen as having failed in their work if they have to kill someone, and the rare shootings are considered scandals.
The thing is that when you look at these numbers the logical conclusion is that US gun culture combined with US police attitudes are a Bad Thing, and people don't seem to want to admit that.
*puts on crazy cap*
Ok check it out. Look at China. Authoritarian government. Russia. For all practical purposes an authoritarian government. Let's look at another highly populated, physically enormous country. US of A. We've already condensed power to just two parties. All others are practically non-existent. I could easily see how the US could have collapsed down to a single party and become authoritarian if it weren't for the threat of guns. I mean, can North Korean civilians overthrow their government? No. They don't have guns. *sips kool-aid*
Ok check it out. Look at China. Authoritarian government. Russia. For all practical purposes an authoritarian government. Let's look at another highly populated, physically enormous country. US of A. We've already condensed power to just two parties. All others are practically non-existent. I could easily see how the US could have collapsed down to a single party and become authoritarian if it weren't for the threat of guns. I mean, can North Korean civilians overthrow their government? No. They don't have guns. *sips kool-aid*
If you don't understand my post, then you can ask instead of trying to be sarcastic. I meant people are comparing U.S with the best of Europe, which is inaccurate, considering U.S is very different from Europe. You can still compare, but noting the differences in culture and not just police policies allows greater context. There aren't many nations like U.S really. You would need to change a lot, not just police training to get those numbers down the way many here want. I am okay with that, U.S can definitely improve and will sooner or later.
Basically I feel people are putting too much focus on police policies in this thread due to the incidents that gained high profile media attention as if those are the majority of people killed by police. Some here are noting it, but many are not. Without a solid statistic coming from the police departments on a local, state, and federal level, it is hard to get a true understanding of this issue.
EDIT: in fact I think the numbers may be higher, but like I said, no dependable statistic since the U.S government does not keep such a record.
GhostWriter24
Member
Mmmmm yeah, I've never had this experience.
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