JadedWriter
Member
I don't even know where that is.
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Bloodborne |OT++++| Now with Trusty Patches
- Thread starter Robot Pants
- Start date
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Follow the bloody river.
I posted awhile ago about my trouble with the game's combat. I've since bought all of the inexpensive early weapons and have been playing around with movesets trying to find a combination of speed and range. I figure if damage can be upgraded, fast attacks and hitstun will primarily win fights.
I'm refuting my idea that enemy attacks can be interrupted leading to normal hitstun. If you R1 an enemy in a neutral state, it will enter hitstun. Some heavy attacks like Hunter's Axe transformed R2 or leaping R2 will always stun whether the enemy has started an attack or not. What was confusing me were all the times I swung into an enemy attack and it was stunned, yet other times it seemed to armor or poise through my strike and continue to hit me.
I believe enemies can be stunned with melee attacks the way guns will stagger them for a Visceral attack. I spent plenty of time fighting those Jason Vorhees lookalikes in Cathedral Ward. I started using Saw Cleaver's longer trick for as its R1 swings like lightning. If the enemy was neutral, R1 always stunned (they have to recover but remain standing). If I continued swinging and they started a slow attack (such as raising their right hand and charging before swinging), I could stun them again but it always seemed random. If I waited and timed an R1 once their attack started, it could stun. If I kept spamming R1 after hitting them initially and they managed to start a slow attack, sometimes my second attack would stun, other times it was my third. I could get no conclusive results but I knew it was possible under some circumstance. This lead to my second freak combat occurrence.
I abandoned Saw Cleaver and switched back to Hunter's Axe and fought Vicar. During that fight, it is possible to inflict enough damage that he will sit on his hind legs and howl, spurting blood and leaving himself open to a few free attacks. Cleric Beast does the same thing - it will howl, then swipe in a full circle around his body. This seemed to be from total damage alone, not any timed attack. I could score these sort of stuns on Vicar with any R1, R2, or leaping R2 - it always seemed to be from total damage (perhaps related even to his lifebar percentage, not combo damage). Anyway, I always used Hunter Axe transformed against him for range and damage, no guns. Yet last night I got a Visceral attack on him... without guns. The sound cue played and he fell to his knees, and R1 triggered the zoom-in cutscene that plays with every Visceral Attack.
Witnessing now that against a boss it was possible to trigger such attacks without guns leads me to believe stunning or full staggering enemies is related generally to timing with some exceptions. Against those Jason enemies like I said, R1 would stun except in some cases after they had started an attack. Full charge R2s knock them down unless they see you; they will swing right through your attack and knock you down. Leaping R2 always stunned as did standing R2. I could leaping R2 and mash stand R2 and I would interrupt every attack they started.
My Hunter Axe is +4 at the moment but my hope is all of this data is related to moveset and in certain cases attack timing, not weapon or stat level. My goal was to look for consistency in the combat system and I believe I found it. While the design is not what I hoped for, at least there are ways to generate setups and guaranteed damage against enemies, and this testing explained certain things like why standing R1s would sometimes stun but not always, or why full charge R2s would fail to knock down enemies. I played Dark Souls with this mentality, using particular attacks to setup potential for further damage. Just like one would learn to time and space dodging against enemy attacks, I feel it is important to learn how and when to attack after making attacks whiff, dodging attacks, or landing one attack and lead to another. There are enemies who can be pseudo-stunlocked with attack spamming but they are exceptions.
Knowing how enemies will sometimes fast attack out of hitstun or are able to basically poise through attacks due to impact timing discourages players from fighting in such a way. There are combos of sort to find, probably against all enemies, but they will depend on weapons and attacks rather than a number. This makes the system different from Dark Souls' Poise counter or the sort of stagger point count in Devil May Cry 3 (or other action games), but I feel satisfied that it is not in fact random. Hope you find this interesting, hope I can duplicate melee boss Viscerals, hope we can share more PvE strats. Onward into the night...
I'm refuting my idea that enemy attacks can be interrupted leading to normal hitstun. If you R1 an enemy in a neutral state, it will enter hitstun. Some heavy attacks like Hunter's Axe transformed R2 or leaping R2 will always stun whether the enemy has started an attack or not. What was confusing me were all the times I swung into an enemy attack and it was stunned, yet other times it seemed to armor or poise through my strike and continue to hit me.
I believe enemies can be stunned with melee attacks the way guns will stagger them for a Visceral attack. I spent plenty of time fighting those Jason Vorhees lookalikes in Cathedral Ward. I started using Saw Cleaver's longer trick for as its R1 swings like lightning. If the enemy was neutral, R1 always stunned (they have to recover but remain standing). If I continued swinging and they started a slow attack (such as raising their right hand and charging before swinging), I could stun them again but it always seemed random. If I waited and timed an R1 once their attack started, it could stun. If I kept spamming R1 after hitting them initially and they managed to start a slow attack, sometimes my second attack would stun, other times it was my third. I could get no conclusive results but I knew it was possible under some circumstance. This lead to my second freak combat occurrence.
I abandoned Saw Cleaver and switched back to Hunter's Axe and fought Vicar. During that fight, it is possible to inflict enough damage that he will sit on his hind legs and howl, spurting blood and leaving himself open to a few free attacks. Cleric Beast does the same thing - it will howl, then swipe in a full circle around his body. This seemed to be from total damage alone, not any timed attack. I could score these sort of stuns on Vicar with any R1, R2, or leaping R2 - it always seemed to be from total damage (perhaps related even to his lifebar percentage, not combo damage). Anyway, I always used Hunter Axe transformed against him for range and damage, no guns. Yet last night I got a Visceral attack on him... without guns. The sound cue played and he fell to his knees, and R1 triggered the zoom-in cutscene that plays with every Visceral Attack.
Witnessing now that against a boss it was possible to trigger such attacks without guns leads me to believe stunning or full staggering enemies is related generally to timing with some exceptions. Against those Jason enemies like I said, R1 would stun except in some cases after they had started an attack. Full charge R2s knock them down unless they see you; they will swing right through your attack and knock you down. Leaping R2 always stunned as did standing R2. I could leaping R2 and mash stand R2 and I would interrupt every attack they started.
My Hunter Axe is +4 at the moment but my hope is all of this data is related to moveset and in certain cases attack timing, not weapon or stat level. My goal was to look for consistency in the combat system and I believe I found it. While the design is not what I hoped for, at least there are ways to generate setups and guaranteed damage against enemies, and this testing explained certain things like why standing R1s would sometimes stun but not always, or why full charge R2s would fail to knock down enemies. I played Dark Souls with this mentality, using particular attacks to setup potential for further damage. Just like one would learn to time and space dodging against enemy attacks, I feel it is important to learn how and when to attack after making attacks whiff, dodging attacks, or landing one attack and lead to another. There are enemies who can be pseudo-stunlocked with attack spamming but they are exceptions.
Knowing how enemies will sometimes fast attack out of hitstun or are able to basically poise through attacks due to impact timing discourages players from fighting in such a way. There are combos of sort to find, probably against all enemies, but they will depend on weapons and attacks rather than a number. This makes the system different from Dark Souls' Poise counter or the sort of stagger point count in Devil May Cry 3 (or other action games), but I feel satisfied that it is not in fact random. Hope you find this interesting, hope I can duplicate melee boss Viscerals, hope we can share more PvE strats. Onward into the night...
Orochinagis
Member
Second area where the cainhurst blood suckers are, go to the left/* right side where you see a crashed diligence car, the cave is barely noticeable.
The one you like, there is little difference between classes unless you want a specific build.
Arjen
Member
I'd suggest a class with high VIT and pick the saw cleaver as your weapon.
Lone Survivor or Violent Past. If you go with the Axe then you want to pick Violent Past but it really doesn't matter much.
Saw Cleaver is a very balanced starter weapon that is strong enough for end game (in fact still one of the best weapons). Hunter Axe has a very powerful charge R2 move that can clear mobs and do high stun even on bosses.
My personal preference for starters is Saw Cleaver and Lone Survivor. There will be situations where the Axe R2 might not work and then you will be stuck against a wall because you get too used to it relying as a clutch. Saw Cleaver is also easy on the stamina so you have ore actions to work with.
Plus with Saw Cleaver you have the option to level Skill and still get damage. Skill gives more damage to Visceral attacks so it's solid value. Saw Cleaver is a balanced weapon so you can get damage from both skill and strength (meaning it's easier to switch to a new weapon if you need to). .
As others have said it is the other way of River of Blood. One tip though. Run straight into it and go as far as you can.
njean777
Member
Thanks for the advice
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
Does anyone else have that problem where they see even a clip of Bloodborne footage and they're first reaction is "Welp, gotta play through the entire game again. Wonder what weapon should I do this time?" Is this what it's like to have a favorite game of all time???
Happens when I see vids of weapons I don't use.
I'm debating starting a Bloodtinge or Skill/Bloodtinge build to eventually get stuff like the Simon's Bowblade working well.
Red Liquorice
Member
This is me and any Souls game really. I've got games sitting unopened but I still want to play Soulsborne!
Still much easier than Defiled at least to me. BLB wasn't as bad as I remembered but definitely wasn't easy.
Weltall Zero
Member
Hahah, yup. Only in my case I have three concurrent characters and don't want to start a new one, so it's more like "I have to get the Bloodletter with this character".
Do eeeeeet. Chikage is currently my favorite weapon in the entire game including DLC.
There are some really safe methods for fighting some of the defiled bosses; minus Yharnum, I hate all of the Ihyll bosses. I'd gladly fight defiled Watchdog or Amy any day over Pthumerian Descendent or BLB.
Orochinagis
Member
Descendant is the easiest, just push him on a wall or a corner and he instant tries to back off and enters into a loop of backsteps since his AI will tell him to always backstep when is in danger.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Eh might be rough since I will be scale down to your level, but I can give it a go. Meet you outside the fog gate. set the password as GAFHUNT all cap lock.
if you are still looking.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
bell is ringing.
edit: shit shouldnt have done that :/ 2 hits can pretty much kill me
let me know if get it.. or not..will be more careful next time.bell is ringing.
edit: shit shouldnt have done that :/ 2 hits can pretty much kill me
I really need to level up hahah
Thanks for the fun boss battle we ll get Ludwig next time
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
What makes Bloodborne so tough is that you can't really know a weapon till you've beaten the game with it. I did a Chikage build and hated it when I first used it, like with a lot of weapons. But I kept using it, learning it's numerous strengths and weaknesses, and now I think it's pretty rad. It's really like a fighting game in that regard, because you want to try all the characters but can't know them till a hundred games in.
Anyway, what are some people's hopes for a sequel? Fixes? Enemy types? Themes? Return weapons?
I really want more dashing enemies. I love how the old Yarhnam guys dash and wish more enemies did that. Dashing enemies should be the knight fights of this series. Also, hope the relook how they do hunter battles. DSII dlc guys were leagues above these hunters.
For Bloodborne 2 I really don't want much, just the following stuff:
*Revamp the match making system. It's still garbage. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a match between players who know each other.
*Allow us the option to teleport straight to the hub zone when we are out in the wild. Having to first teleport to the Lantern and then teleport back to the hub wastes a lot of time.
*If they feel the need to bring back the Chalice Dungeons, then they need to improve them some more. It takes too long to get to the meat of the dungeons, you have to slog through a bunch of shitty/easy dungeons first. Also the dungeons lack variety, I would like to see more of the enemies/bosses from the base game make it into the dungeons along with more unique content. This mode definitely has a lot of potential if they expand upon it.
*Just more bosses, weapons, armors, tools, locations, build variety etc.
*Allow for a stat relocation ability similar to Soul Vessels in DS2.
*Probably need to rethink the health system. It doesn't matter much late game but it's extremely punishing to new players. Vials should just refill when you die like in the other Souls game, they can compensate by having you start off with less and then build up more stocks through upgrades.
*Revamp the match making system. It's still garbage. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a match between players who know each other.
*Allow us the option to teleport straight to the hub zone when we are out in the wild. Having to first teleport to the Lantern and then teleport back to the hub wastes a lot of time.
*If they feel the need to bring back the Chalice Dungeons, then they need to improve them some more. It takes too long to get to the meat of the dungeons, you have to slog through a bunch of shitty/easy dungeons first. Also the dungeons lack variety, I would like to see more of the enemies/bosses from the base game make it into the dungeons along with more unique content. This mode definitely has a lot of potential if they expand upon it.
*Just more bosses, weapons, armors, tools, locations, build variety etc.
*Allow for a stat relocation ability similar to Soul Vessels in DS2.
*Probably need to rethink the health system. It doesn't matter much late game but it's extremely punishing to new players. Vials should just refill when you die like in the other Souls game, they can compensate by having you start off with less and then build up more stocks through upgrades.
Orochinagis
Member
Basically a Dark Souls game
Bloodborne is already very much a Souls games. Some of those things aren't exclusive to Souls games, they are mostly only seen in DS2 (which despite the hate did quite a few things right). Might as well take the good and keep the bad out.
I still want the heavy aggressive game play, low stamina consumption, parry with guns, back stab/viscerals with charge R2 (versus just hitting someone from behind), transforming weapons with large moveset, streamlined sub systems, no equipment load affecting your movement/dodging, Blood gem upgrades, easy to use torch system (unlike DS2 which has a very non intuitive torch system) etc.
Basically Bloodborne is the more streamline Souls game but some elements of it remain the very opposite of streamlined especially when it comes to the online system. That needs to be addressed.
I rather fight Ihyll bosses as those don't have luck tied to them. Defiled Amygdala is pretty bullshit with the jump attack where the recommended tactic of staying still doesn't always work. Got to third phase many times only to get hit by the jump attack because I don't know. When it works you can beat her no problem but it feels so luck based.
I always see these online not working complaints but I've had it working pretty flawlessly since launch.
Having ability to warp into Hunters Dream instantly would be great. Bold Hunters Mark should allow you to decide if you want to get into Dream or just the Lamp.
Had to play some co-op when the DLC launched and the shit reminded me of how awful it was. Literally spend like 10-15 minutes trying to get a party going for a single boss run.
It's easier to get paired up with a random than setting up a match with someone you know. The co-op for Chalice is even worse because people have to consult a god damn wiki to figure out how to set up a party for it.
I usually get matched pretty fast by using a password. Sometimes it doesn't connect for whatever reason or takes a long time but for the most part it works fine for me.
Chalice coop is too convoluted for sure but didn't From fix that recently? Or is it still the same?
Weltall Zero
Member
So, so true. In my case it was the Threaded Cane, it was my least favorite of the starting weapons until I was forced to use it with my SKL/BLT character. Now I really like it.
A huge part of it is knowing the range of each attack and therefore dominating the footsie game. Nothing more satisfying than baiting an enemy, back away so they miss by an inch then clip them with the tip of your attack. The Chikage takes it to the next level if you press L1 while doing that (which allows you to move), then cancel the L1 animation with the R1 draw slash. Seriously, the Chikage is boss.
Return weapons: All of them (a pipe dream, unfortunately).
Fixes: Rework Chalice Dungeons to offer much more variety in layout and room types, reduce the number of non-root chalices to get to the endgame ones quicker, and perhaps offer a way to fight the chalice-exclusive bosses for people that simply don't care.
Improvements: Make the base game enviroments a bit more varied, although that would clash with the gothic/cosmic horror theme. Still, the one thing that the original Dark Souls has BB beat is environment variety, and specifically ones that are not necessarily intrinsically threatening, like the undead burg and the forest in the DLC, so that when you go underground the contrast is that much more terrifying.
Cannon Goose
Member
What was the recommended level for the DLC? I just flew through it with my level 100 Skill character and only died twice. I really enjoyed it but most parts felt a bit easy.
Orochinagis
Member
65-70, for the first boss
Mister_Bubbles
Member
End spoilers
Continue the story of the main character from the first game after the Transcend the Hunt ending. Endure the struggles of being a Great One as you rise through the ranks and combat the awkward social politics of cosmic beings.
sammyCYBORG
Member
I'm level 67 and can't find a summon to fight Amygdala if anyone is online in that area now..
Edit: the boredom of waiting made me solo him I realised I had been doing it with a stupid tactic before...
Edit: the boredom of waiting made me solo him I realised I had been doing it with a stupid tactic before...
I co'op'd the defiled chalice with a friend and Amygdala was still straight up BS. We managed it though.
He's annoying, but it's manageable. For the third phase jump, I roll towards the back of his legs as he jumps - it will place you right under his head and you can do some pretty good damage, especially if you have a weapon with an overhead swing.
Headless BLB is fucked up. If anyone happens to have the basic Ihyll chalic open and wants to help, lemme know. This fight is not enjoyable at all.
edit: Aaaand never mind. Took him down. Played it super cautious and LOCKED onto him the whole fight. Then just went suicidal at the end with a flaming Saw.
Ugly but effective.
edit: Aaaand never mind. Took him down. Played it super cautious and LOCKED onto him the whole fight. Then just went suicidal at the end with a flaming Saw.
Ugly but effective.
Orochinagis
Member
I hope you used the Saw in transformed mode
Lol, of course. Took it for the serrated damage to beasts. Everything finally just clicked in this battle. Preparing a video to showcase my clumsiness.
edit: Video!
GamingOblivion
Banned
Like I said in the DLC OT, this level 4 run is fucking killing me.
Aaand that's it. Platinum Trophy git.
Phew.
Definitely the hardest I've worked (not from a grinding but perseverance perspective) for a Platinum. Unlike my previous hard-earned Platinum (FFXIII), I'm super proud of this. Sure I had a lot of help but still had a lot of hard-fought moments on my own.
Between re-buying the whole game and starting with an STR/ARC build, co-oping the DLC with my friend and the chalices, I think I'll take a break before a new build.
Thinking SKL/BT and going for Chikage/Bowblade combo.
Phew.
Definitely the hardest I've worked (not from a grinding but perseverance perspective) for a Platinum. Unlike my previous hard-earned Platinum (FFXIII), I'm super proud of this. Sure I had a lot of help but still had a lot of hard-fought moments on my own.
Between re-buying the whole game and starting with an STR/ARC build, co-oping the DLC with my friend and the chalices, I think I'll take a break before a new build.
Thinking SKL/BT and going for Chikage/Bowblade combo.
Glitchesarecool
Member
So this is my first run at the game, and I'm having a grand old time. I've gotten up to something around 35 vit/30 stam/35 strength/25 skill, cleaning up sidequests, but I'm wondering if my chosen weapon is best for my current spread.
I love the shit out of Ludwig's blade. The charged R2 with followup pancake attack feels great to use and in general, the transformed mode is just baller. But I've read that maybe the Kirkhammer is the better choice for a strength build, or even the Wheel but I have yet to acquire that. The Kirkhammer feels clunky to me, as it's probably designed to be, and never really felt like it had the same damage that Ludwig's did even though the strength scaling is better. Is Ludwig's still the right choice going into the end of my first game?
I love the shit out of Ludwig's blade. The charged R2 with followup pancake attack feels great to use and in general, the transformed mode is just baller. But I've read that maybe the Kirkhammer is the better choice for a strength build, or even the Wheel but I have yet to acquire that. The Kirkhammer feels clunky to me, as it's probably designed to be, and never really felt like it had the same damage that Ludwig's did even though the strength scaling is better. Is Ludwig's still the right choice going into the end of my first game?
JadedWriter
Member
For a strength build I've heard wonderous things about the Whirligig saw.
Glitchesarecool
Member
As have I, but I don't have the DLC.
fastford58
Member
Depends on the dungeons - you need to beat Blood-Starved Beast, Amygdala and Ebrietas for 3 chalices, and then the other chalices are from killing Chalice Dungeon bosses.
We've been using this guide which has been fairly handy:
Quoting this guide again. Just finished the defiled dungeon. Crikeys that one was hard as balls.
I'm up to Blood Starved Beast take two. He's annoying me almost as much as he did the first time around.
fastford58
Member
I found an easy way to kill bsb. I just quickstep towards him and past him everytime he attacks then hit him in the ass a couple times. I rarely get hit anymore by it.
The only time I change it up is when he does the attack where he raises his hand. For that one I side step the lunge then quickly dart towards him to land a couple of strikes.
I stay locked on him the whole time.
Weltall Zero
Member
Your build is STR/SKL anyway, you have just 10 more STR than SKL, and under those conditions Ludwig's is probably going to be your best option of the three. It's the weapon I use with my main and it wrecks shit, to the point it feels overpowered (currently mid NG+). As mentioned above, check out Whirlgig Saw if you have the DLC, you don't even have to kill any bosses to get it and it's ridiculously fun and very powerful.
