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Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state

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S

Skyzard

Banned
La Paz (AFP) - Bolivia on Wednesday renounced a visa exemption agreement with Israel in protest over its offensive in Gaza, and declared it a terrorist state.

President Evo Morales announced the move during a talk with a group of educators in the city of Cochabamba.

It "means, in other words, we are declaring (Israel) a terrorist state," he said.

The treaty has allowed Israelis to travel freely to Bolivia without a visa since 1972.

Morales said the Gaza offensive shows "that Israel is not a guarantor of the principles of respect for life and the elementary precepts of rights that govern the peaceful and harmonious coexistence of our international community."

More than two weeks of fighting in Gaza have left 1,300 dead and 6,000 wounded amid an intense Israeli air and ground campaign in response to missile attacks by the Islamist militant group Hamas.

In the latest development, 16 people were killed after two Israeli shells slammed into a United Nations school, drawing international protests.

Bolivia broke off diplomatic relations with Israel in 2009 over a previous military operation in Gaza.

In mid-July, Morales filed a request with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to prosecute Israel for "crimes against humanity."
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http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-184920411.html
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
Terrorism

Noun

S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear) - Source: WordNet
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So... does this definition fit Israel?
 
A

Archer

Member
larrydavid2.gif
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
Seems like an overreaction.

Does Israel go too far killing innocent people? Definitely. But are they calling for the destruction of countries/nations and intentionally claiming responsibility for each death? Not even close.
 
D

diaspora

Member
ComputerMKII said:
So... does this definition fit Israel?
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It honestly fits both of them.

Esch said:
Fair enough, ethnic cleansing and all.
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"Within six weeks, an estimated 800,000 Tutsi, representing about three-quarters of the Tutsi then remaining in Rwanda...had been killed.”
― Jared Diamond, Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

That, that is ethnic cleansing. You demean the term by applying it to Israel's excessive force and brutality.
 
Z

zomaha

Member
JordanN said:
Seems like an overreaction.

Does Israel go too far killing innocent people? Definitely. But are they calling for the destruction of countries/nations? Not even close.
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Do you have to call for the destruction of countries to be considered a terrorist state?
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
JordanN said:
Seems like an overreaction.

Does Israel go too far killing innocent people? Definitely. But are they calling for the destruction of countries/nations and intentionally claiming responsibility for each death? Not even close.
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That's not what terrorism is.

Israel has systematically crushed the will of the Palestinian people by subjecting them to humiliating conditions of life, via the blockade and these annual "operations". Literally, bombing them into submission and placing fear into their hearts. There is no other reason, Hamas =/= the entire population, yet the entire population is suffering. When you blow up the only power plant in the small area, you are collectively punishing everyone. This recent offensive is a textbook example of state-sponsored terrorism.
 
D

diaspora

Member
m_shortpants said:
That's not what terrorism is.

Israel has systematically crushed the will of the Palestinian people by subjecting them to humiliating conditions of life. Literally, bombing them into submission and placing fear into their hearts. There is no other reason, Hamas =/= the entire population, yet the entire population is suffering. When you blow up the only power plant in the small area, you are collectively punishing everyone. This recent offensive is a textbook example of state-sponsored terrorism.
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Israel exhibits excessive and brutal responses to aggression, but to ignore that it's a response to Hamas would be idiotic and incorrectly abdicates them of the responsibility they share in this conflict.
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
m_shortpants said:
That's not what terrorism is.

Israel has systematically crushed the will of the Palestinian people by subjecting them to humiliating conditions of life, via the blockade and these annual "operations". Literally, bombing them into submission and placing fear into their hearts. There is no other reason, Hamas =/= the entire population, yet the entire population is suffering. When you blow up the only power plant in the small area, you are collectively punishing everyone. This recent offensive is a textbook example of state-sponsored terrorism.
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Israel's only goal is to take out Hamas. If you remove that, you can bet they would want nothing to do with Gaza like how they left it in 2005.

Their priorities are misaligned but they're not terrorists. You also can't ignore Israel is not claiming any deliberate civilian attacks. Whenever Hamas bombs a school or kidnap people, they claim they wanted that.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
diaspora said:
Israel exhibits excessive and brutal responses to aggression, but to ignore that it's a response to Hamas would be idiotic and incorrectly abdicates them of the responsibility they share in this conflict.
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Of course not, but let's not forget this whole situation was started with the lie that Hamas kidnapped the three teenagers. Israel provoked this fight. And that's not even mentioning that the Palestinians are the ones subjected to occupation by way of blockade/siege.
 
W

Wickerbasket

Member
diaspora said:
Israel exhibits excessive and brutal responses to aggression, but to ignore that it's a response to Hamas would be idiotic and incorrectly abdicates them of the responsibility they share in this conflict.
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Why does their response to Hamas involve bombing hospitals, schools, UN bomb shelters and power plants?
 
E

Esch

Banned
diaspora said:
"Within six weeks, an estimated 800,000 Tutsi, representing about three-quarters of the Tutsi then remaining in Rwanda...had been killed.”
― Jared Diamond, Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

That, that is ethnic cleansing. You demean the term by applying it to Israel's excessive force and brutality.
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You say potato, I say potahto. I see one resisting settlement being wiped out with ground and air operations slowly, I see another pacifist one being slowly swallowed up with demolished homes. I don't think it's a stretch at all given their actions to say that the ultimate goal of the Israeli state is to consume Palestine with little regard for its occupants.
 
S

Skyzard

Banned
diaspora said:
Israel exhibits excessive and brutal responses to aggression, but to ignore that it's a response to Hamas would be idiotic and incorrectly abdicates them of the responsibility they share in this conflict.
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Pretending that their civilian heavy kill count isn't aimed at instigating more violence and revenge attacks to justify their further expansion of illegal land and cyclical genocide of the Palestinian people through collective punishment, inexcusable living conditions and common occurrences of blatant murder by its soldiers.

All at a time when the Palestinians were pushing for moderation to get more international legitimacy.

Bolivia is fucking spot on.
 
D

diaspora

Member
m_shortpants said:
Of course not, but let's not forget this whole situation was started with the lie that Hamas kidnapped the three teenagers. Israel provoked this fight. And that's not even mentioning that the Palestinians are the ones subjected to occupation by way of blockade/siege.
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It doesn't matter whether or not Israel provoked anything really. It's responding to aggression with aggression albeit being much more powerful and heavy handed though the lack of Israeli casualties has more to do with Hamas being a joke of a force than of their own discretion. Palestinians being subject to blockades and sieges doesn't really excuse Hamas' aggression towards Israeli civilians any more than Hamas' attacks makes Israeli barrages justified towards civilians.

Esch said:
You say potato, I say potahto. I see one resisting settlement being wiped out with ground and air operations slowly, I see another pacifist one being slowly swallowed up with demolished homes. I don't think it's a stretch at all given their actions to say that the ultimate goal of the Israeli state is to consume Palestine with little regard for its occupants.
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I say one is a heavy handed response to a pathetic fighting force, you say it's ethnic cleansing. Just because you want to ignore the rather glaring differences between the two doesn't mean there aren't any.

Skyzard said:
Pretending that their civilian heavy kill count isn't aimed at instigating more violence and revenge attacks to justify their further expansion of illegal land and cyclical genocide of the Palestinian people through collective punishment, inexcusable living conditions and common occurrences of blatant murder by its soldiers.

All at a time when the Palestinians were pushing for moderation to get more international legitimacy.

Bolivia is fucking spot on.
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Israel doesn't want to legitimize Hamas, and it shouldn't want to; as far as the violence is concerned and what your useless conjecture on the aims of the violence is concerned- it doesn't really matter. What did you think aim of Hamas attacks were? Sunshine and daisies? Palestine deserves legitimacy, Hamas deserves to be BTFO.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
JordanN said:
Israel's only goal is to take out Hamas. If you remove that, you can bet they would want nothing to do with Gaza like how they left it in 2005.

Their priorities are misaligned but they're not terrorists.
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What part does leveling entire neighborhoods, destroying power plants, schools, and hospitals play in eliminating Hamas?

And before you go there, no, Hamas does not use human shields as much as Israel would have you believe.

The Israeli authorities claim that Hamas and Palestinian armed groups use Palestinian civilians in Gaza as “human shields”. Does Amnesty International have any evidence that this has occurred during the current hostilities, and what obligations of Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups are relevant?

Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks. As explained above, in previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip, and available evidence indicates that they continue to do both during the current hostilities, in violation of international humanitarian law. During the current hostilities, Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. However, in light of the lack of clarity in many of the Israeli warnings on safe routes for civilians to evacuate, the lack of shelters or other safe places in the Gaza Strip for them to go to, and numerous reports of civilians who did heed the warnings and flee doing so under Israeli fire, such statements by Hamas officials could have been motivated by a desire to avoid further panic. In any case, public statements referring to entire areas are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Furthermore, international humanitarian law is clear that even if officials or fighters from Hamas or Palestinian armed groups associated with other factions did in fact direct civilians to remain in a specific location in order to shield military objectives from attacks, all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.
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P

PeskyToaster

Member
ComputerMKII said:
So... does this definition fit Israel?
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I would say most countries are terrorist states by that definition and i think it's too broad to be of any value. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I mean sure, Bolivia called Israel a terrorist state, but does that really mean anything and will it do anything to help people?
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
diaspora said:
It doesn't matter whether or not Israel provoked anything really. It's responding to aggression with aggression albeit being much more powerful and heavy handed though the lack of Israeli casualties has more to do with Hamas being a joke of a force than of their own discretion. Palestinians being subject to blockades and sieges doesn't really excuse Hamas' aggression towards Israeli civilians any more than Hamas' attacks makes Israeli barrages justified towards civilians.
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What? Of course it matters. Wasn't Hamas responding to aggression with aggression when Israel falsely imprisoned 400+ people, killed 20, and demolished homes, all on the lie that they kidnapped 3 teenagers? Or are they not allowed to do anything? I don't agree with them firing rockets indiscriminately, but to expect them to do absolutely nothing when they are down and being kicked is absurd. The rockets were exactly what Israel wanted as a response, as they set up the perfect pretense to destroy any steps towards peace with the unity government.
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
diaspora said:
"Within six weeks, an estimated 800,000 Tutsi, representing about three-quarters of the Tutsi then remaining in Rwanda...had been killed.”
― Jared Diamond, Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

That, that is ethnic cleansing. You demean the term by applying it to Israel's excessive force and brutality.
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No, that is genocide. Ethnic cleansing simply involves actions that result in the removal (not necessarily via killing them) of a population group from a certain location. Large-scale lethal violence may be employed, but is not a prerequisite (unlike genocide where lethal violence and the willingness to commit lethal violence, a.k.a. mens rea, is a prerequisite). Many instances of population transfers in the 20th century were de facto acts of ethnic cleansing. By destroying infrastructure and housing the Israeli government is attempting to force the Palestinians to emigrate from Gaza. This fits the 'technical' definition of ethnic cleansing.
 
D

diaspora

Member
m_shortpants said:
What? Of course it matters. Wasn't Hamas responding to aggression with aggression when Israel falsely imprisoned 400+ people, killed 20, and demolished homes, all on the lie that they kidnapped 3 teenagers? Or are they not allowed to do anything? I don't agree with them firing rockets indiscriminately, but to expect them to do absolutely nothing when they are down and being kicked is absurd. The rockets were exactly what Israel wanted as a response, as they set up the perfect pretense to destroy any steps towards peace with the unity government.
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That's actually exactly what I expect them to do, they cannot, and will not ever achieve peace as long as they both exist and go down their current path of action.

Nickodemos said:
No, that is genocide. Ethnic cleansing simply involves actions that result in the removal (not necessarily via killing them) of a population group from a certain location. Large-scale lethal violence may be employed, but is not a prerequisite (unlike genocide where lethal violence and the willingness to commit lethal violence, a.k.a. mens rea, is a prerequisite). Many instances of population transfers in the 20th century were de facto acts of ethnic cleansing. By destroying infrastructure and housing the Israeli government is attempting to force the Palestinians to emigrate from Gaza. This fits the 'technical' definition of ethnic cleansing.
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Not really no, since being ethnically arab plays no part in the current conflict.
 
L

Lowmelody

Member
Good, I hope they are the first country of many to wake up and begin using language strong enough to be worthy Israel's targeted and intentional devastation and eventual removal of an entire culture of people.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
diaspora said:
That's actually exactly what I expect them to do, they cannot, and will not ever achieve peace as long as they both exist and go down their current path of action.



Not really no, since being ethnically arab plays no part in the current conflict.
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You're conveniently ignoring the part where prior to this conflict being provoked by Israel, Hamas wanted a 10 year peace truce with reasonable demands, which Israel ignored.

So they decided to form the unity government with the Palestinian Authority instead. But of course any step towards peace cannot be allowed by Israel, so they provoked this entire conflict on a lie.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/15/after_palestinian_unity_deal_did_israel

As to how we got to where we are, the general context is perfectly obvious for anyone who wants to see it. A unity government was formed between the PA and Hamas. Netanyahu was enraged at this unity government. It called on the U.S., it called on the EU, to break relations with the Palestinian Authority. Surprisingly, the United States said, "No, we’re going to give this unity government time. We’ll see whether it works or not." Then the EU came in and said it will also give the unity government time. "Let’s see. Let’s see what happens."

At this point, Netanyahu virtually went berserk, and he was determined to break up the unity government. When there was the abduction of the three Israeli teenagers, he found his pretext. There isn’t a scratch of evidence, not a jot of evidence, that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnappings and the killings. Nobody even knows what the motive was, to this point. Even if you look at the July 3rd report of Human Rights Watch, they said nobody knows who was behind the abductions. Even the U.S. State Department, on July 7th, there was a news conference, and the U.S. State Department said, "We don’t have hard evidence about who was responsible." But that had nothing to do with it. It was just a pretext. The pretext was to go into the West Bank, attack Hamas, arrest 700 members of Hamas, blow up two homes, carry on these rampages, these ransackings, and to try to evoke a reaction from Hamas.

This is what Israel always does. Anybody who knows the history, it’s what the Israeli political scientist, the mainstream political scientist—name was Avner Yaniv—he said it’s these Palestinian "peace offensives." Whenever the Palestinians seem like they are trying to reach a settlement of the conflict, which the unity government was, at that point Israel does everything it can to provoke a violent reaction—in this case, from Hamas—break up the unity government, and Israel has its pretext. "We can’t negotiate with the Palestinian Authority because they only represent some of the Palestinian people; they don’t represent all of the Palestinian people." And so Netanyahu does what he always does—excuse me, what Israeli governments always do: You keep pounding the Palestinians, in this case pounding Hamas, pounding Hamas, trying to evoke a reaction, and when the reaction comes—well, when the reaction comes, he said, "We can’t deal with these people. They’re terrorists."
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