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Borderlands 2 |OT| Opening Pandora's Box (of Guns!)
- Thread starter iNvid02
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Instanced loot is such a terrible idea. Just like in any online game if you want a 'clean' experience you play with friends or a guild or what not. Playing with randoms is playing with randoms. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, you should expect they're going to screw you to their own benefit. And if you're going up against a tough enemy there's a very good chance one or more of your allies will not only be poorly geared but also generally suck at the game as well. It's the whole point of a friends system.
Diablo 3 is perfect evidence that what sounds like a great idea on paper often has unexpected and extremely negative consequences on online play in reality. And I'm glad that the developers/designers behind Borderlands realize this. Here is a great article on this exact topic: http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/04/borderlands-2-the-future-of-loot
Diablo 3 is perfect evidence that what sounds like a great idea on paper often has unexpected and extremely negative consequences on online play in reality. And I'm glad that the developers/designers behind Borderlands realize this. Here is a great article on this exact topic: http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/04/borderlands-2-the-future-of-loot
mickcenary
Member
Hmm. Maybe I'm stupid/misread it. Nice to know, anyhow.
D3's problem is the uninteresting loots itself, not the Instanced loot system.
gutterboy44
Member
I understand their intentions with the loot system but they did nothing to improve the old style loot system we have seen in BL1 and countless other games. If you think it is such a defining aspect in this free for all world
of Pandora, how about enhancing the duel systems? Let me challenge for a specific item. How about letting me put a bounty on a player after they loot whore and the first to kill him gets the cash I put up. Maybe have it so legendary drops trigger a four way battle royal everytime. There are so many things they could do to make the loot system better match the tone of Pandora. Using the same old system fails to impress me. Add more features to the loot and allow instanced loot as an option for hosts. Everyone wins.
of Pandora, how about enhancing the duel systems? Let me challenge for a specific item. How about letting me put a bounty on a player after they loot whore and the first to kill him gets the cash I put up. Maybe have it so legendary drops trigger a four way battle royal everytime. There are so many things they could do to make the loot system better match the tone of Pandora. Using the same old system fails to impress me. Add more features to the loot and allow instanced loot as an option for hosts. Everyone wins.
I've heard you can hide behind the buildings on the left. Also, it might've been a fluke, but the last time I fought him, I stood on one of the containers in the middle and he couldn't hit me at all.
TricksterLoki
Member
As much as Im not a fan of WoW, their loot system of Need/Greed/Pass works well and I never felt cheated using it.
The uninteresting loot is just yet another problem of D3. There were many people, myself amongst them, who predicted D3's rapid decline based on their design decisions as early as the late beta stages. It was quite predictable.
Let's take this to the absurd to make a point. Imagine a loot game came out with a loot system where instead of directly getting items you'd get points from each enemy and boss you killed. Perhaps from bosses you'd get 'gold points'. You could then collect these points and use them to hand pick the items you want from a list. Wow, what a revolution in loot gaming. Instead of being faced with tedium of thousands of useless items and the annoyance of picking through them - you can actually play and be guaranteed to eventually get something that is good for YOU! Something that you really WANT!
Of course that idea is absolutely terrible but there are plenty of people who wouldn't immediately realize why. I can already see those individuals talking about how getting rid of the 'archaic' 'outdated' [insert various other rhetorical adjectives they like to use] design of completely random loot is such a huge and logical leap forward in the genre. It's a game changer! Of course they don't realize you'd have just completely neutered the entire essence of the gameplay in one fell swoop.
Of course instanced loot is nowhere near as a terrible idea as this, but it's the same sort of issue. I think most people can probably intuitively understand why the hypothetical idea I gave above is terrible - but not everybody can. And if you don't intuitively understand why it's terrible it's going to be incredibly difficult to describe why it is. Instanced loot is nowhere near as terrible an idea but it's the same sort of issue. If you can't see why turning other online players into little more than intelligent high damage NPCs with no potential consequences is not necessarily a positive design goal, then there's probably nothing to be said that can sway you.
That article is a great example of developer bias.
Yes, if you are a Borderlands dev, you will probably play and experience the game with friends. This may not be representative of your playerbase. As a dev on another game, my game experience is much different when I play with friends on my official name vs. when I smurf and go solo. And in a game like B2, where as a dev, you have access to "everything", you're not feeling the anger when someone ninja-loots, because you didn't need that thing anyway.
The fact that there's so much complaining in this thread lends evidence (but not proof) to the fact that there's a sizable group that dislikes the loot system.
TemplaerDude
Member
I think people who are defending the loot system have a screw loose somewhere. There are so many better ways of handling it and they've gone twice now with the laziest approach.
Of course there's a sizable group that dislikes the loot system. I'm sure there's a sizable group that dislikes threshers. I'm sure there's a sizable group that dislikes the toilet humor or intentionally politically incorrect themes of the game. If you look hard enough you can find a sizable group that dislikes just about everything about anything.
This issue has also been discussed ad nauseum in the gearbox forums as well. The difference there is they've even done polling with those who would prefer the D3 style of loot making up a small -though vocal- minority of players. The difference is the majority who don't want instanced loot don't tend to spend their time debating the issue. You shouldn't confuse the lack of an opposing voice with silent agreement.
Baconsammy
Banned
Thus proving the rule that for every idiotic decision, there's someone on GAF that will defend it.
So make it a choice. Then everyone gets what they want. It's not a difficult concept.
Haint
Member
I've never seen anyone complain about D3's instanced loot to be honest. I'm sure there are a few old school hold outs who hate it, but the vast majority of complaints focused on the quality, worthlessness, rarity, and general lack of distinction/uniqueness. Are you even familiar with the criticisms surrounding D3 or are you just regurgitating blog posts you've skimmed over? Gearboxes excuse makes for a nice talking point in interviews, but no one really believes it's all part of some grand game world theme. Borderlands is by no stretch a series that bases design decisions around universe realism, laws, and lore. I mean how does falling infinite distances without taking damage factor into Pandora's back story? What about fast traveling? None of it matters and everyone's happy with whatever bullshit they make up. They should at least be honest that they chose to go with the current system cause it's what they're familiar with and what they felt worked. There's nothing to gain by bullshitting it up.
Baconsammy
Banned
Joined a random tonight and the group was in Sanctuary when I joined. The entirety of all the streets was covered in purple/pink/blue loots of all varieties. Not exaggerating one bit. Every since inch of every bit of ground was covered in level 50 high level loot. The guy who we were connected to apparently found a way to glitch the Gold Chest and was just opening it and closing it and throwing the loot on the ground. This is on 360, btw. I picked up enough loot to get the achievement for having purple or better in every slot, and then put all the loot down and left. I much prefer the loot I get that I earn.
You're making a huge assumption here.
Once again just because you keep trying to repeat something just doesn't make it true.
Feel free to peruse the Gearbox forums where there are plenty of people who want D3 style loot as well. And they have repeatedly done polling. The vast majority oppose instanced/D3 style loot. Start a poll here as well, if it doesn't get locked I assume the results would likely be the same.
toastyToast
Member
I'm going to make an assumption
If that legendary that you wanted drops, you're going to be pissed if you don't get it
If that legendary that you wanted drops, you're going to be pissed if you don't get it
Same thing happened to me. The guy was standing on top of a pillar and 'projectile vomitting' 100's of purples. They were streaming out of him. Would of been 200 easily in a pile.
There's no assumption. It's a statement of fact based on numerous polling of players of BL2.
You could argue that people who post on forums make up a biased segment of players; that's actually what happened over there. The D3 loot fans were shocked they were such a small minority and so started suggesting the polls would certainly be different if they polled more casuals. Perhaps that is the case, perhaps not. In any case they're the ones making the assumptions - not me.
Lol that sounds awesome.
But yeah, I probably wouldn't keep the loot though. Unless there was a sweet shotgun.
I'd argue instanced loot is the only good thing about Diablo 3.
The problem with their loot was that it was boring as fuck from level 1 to 60.
Haint
Member
It doesn't even matter which side is right, it seems clear Gearbox has nothing to gain by sticking with one side. The fact that a notable amount of people care enough to waste their time being a "vocal minority" suggest the inclusion of an option should be the first agenda.
Baconsammy
Banned
I farmed The Warrior and got a few really good purple shotguns. You get a lot of really good level 50 loot for very little work.
What, no orange weapons?
Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with this thread because I've been avoiding spoilers, but I have some questions:
1. Has anyone concluded a rough drop rate for boss orange rarities? Specifically, Blue's shield drop?
2. Some artifacts seem glitched. Specifically, the shield capacity artifact. Scenario: First we disabled BA points and took off every stat point and piece of equipment besides a generic shield. Then we equipped a 30% capacity artifact on a 3000 sized shield. It put the shield to 3133 capacity. This must be a glitch. It seemed to have varying percentages depending on the shields base size, but never went over 10%. Any documentation/comment on this?
And a comment:
BIG level ~29ish near end spoiler
1. Has anyone concluded a rough drop rate for boss orange rarities? Specifically, Blue's shield drop?
2. Some artifacts seem glitched. Specifically, the shield capacity artifact. Scenario: First we disabled BA points and took off every stat point and piece of equipment besides a generic shield. Then we equipped a 30% capacity artifact on a 3000 sized shield. It put the shield to 3133 capacity. This must be a glitch. It seemed to have varying percentages depending on the shields base size, but never went over 10%. Any documentation/comment on this?
And a comment:
BIG level ~29ish near end spoiler
We went to 'Nexus Badlands' and I mentioned to my team "Badlands? Wouldn't it be cool if this was the big open area outside of Fyrstone in the first game that you couldn't get to?"
Then I ended up being right on the money! It was awesome going back to the first area of the game but I wish they hadn't locked off so much of the map.
Then I ended up being right on the money! It was awesome going back to the first area of the game but I wish they hadn't locked off so much of the map.
Baconsammy
Banned
Nope. I've used 5 keys so far and never saw an orange come out of the box. If he had any orange gear, people before me grabbed it.
Not only do the majority support free for all loot, but the designers behind this game believe D3 style loot is damaging to gameplay. On top of all of that it's a multiplayer game. One host toggling the loot to D3 style would be annoying for the majority who join his game and want normal looting.
Baconsammy
Banned
Yeah, choice is a bad thing. Hilarious that you keep referring to this phantom "majority", as if the majority of gamers post at Gearbox's forums.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
=/
Yes choice can be a bad option when it damages gameplay. Perhaps some players don't like that when they wipe out they lose $ and bosses regen - should there be a toggle to enable Bioshock style 0 penalty death?
Obviously that question is rhetorical but it's ultimately the same thing. Free for all loot is not a no brainer. It has clear consequences and as a designer it's up to you, as a designer, to decide whether those consequences enhance the gameplay or harm it. You don't wish-wash and enable a toggle if players think the consequences are too severe.
I'm not sure I see how that changes things, unless instanced loot is supposed to give the exact same drops to all players in the game. Honestly instanced loot doesn't strike me as all that amazing of an idea. I certainly don't care.
Speaking of loot though, the game has been pretty kind to me tonight. Level 49 and 50 Bees, level 48 and 50 Strikers, a level 50 Conference Call, a level 50 Veruc, a level 50 Lyuda, and a sick purple artifact that has +68% mag size and -57% burst delay for Dahl weapons. I adore the Veruc (even though mine is shock so I might try to farm another one without element) so it was awesome to find the artifact.
You could have used anything that wasn't MLP related, yet you did.
Baconsammy
Banned
If you're going to defend something as stupid as "choice is a bad thing", you better come up with better examples than that.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
Where's the fun in that?
Confidence Man
Member
Anyone using the player difficulty mod try changing the difficulty just before you finish off a boss? Or does it get locked in when the enemy spawns?
Pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
The example is appropriate. The issue here is that D3 style loot enable a player to change a gameplay mechanic with ostensibly only positive results. Even though I obviously despise D3 style looting from a design perspective, I would enable it if it were an option in game as a player. Do you think I'm some sort of masochist that enjoys seeing that legendary I really wanted get ninja looted? Of course not.
The goal of the player is to beat the game and do all he can to reach that end. The goal of the designer is to make the process of reaching that end as rewarding and enjoyable as possible. That's why the example of disabling a death penalty is comparable. It's an option that, if available, most all players would enable. Yet it's something that might actually enhance the gameplay experience of the player if it wasn't enabled and thus is better decided by the designer. It's paradoxical in a way.
Buckethead
Banned
Just got an awesome shock SMG by using a gold key.
Also got a sniper rifle which I'll probably just sell.
Would love a corrosive SMG, game. Hint, hint.
Also got a sniper rifle which I'll probably just sell.
Would love a corrosive SMG, game. Hint, hint.
Finished TVHM tonight with a friend after switching to sniper tree, my god it's fun. Afterwards we took on Terramorphus and after two tries he fell, of course he had the bee on but I didn't. Surprised his tentacles went down that fast to me when my friend was trying to make his way back to the fight.
positives of a roll based system [not instanced loot where everyone gets something]
+classes/playstyles are not punished for hanging back
+players do not have to constantly be on the lookout and rush every chest/loot container/boss/item
+everyone gets a roll on an item, so everyone gets a chance to grab it
negatives
-ninjaing is still possible for those rolling on something they may not need.
-can't really think of any others?
+classes/playstyles are not punished for hanging back
+players do not have to constantly be on the lookout and rush every chest/loot container/boss/item
+everyone gets a roll on an item, so everyone gets a chance to grab it
negatives
-ninjaing is still possible for those rolling on something they may not need.
-can't really think of any others?
There's a lot of downsides to this system as well. The lowest level one being passive looting. Somebody logs into a game and can 'troll' even easier than loot whores in free for all by just sitting idle or following people around doing nothing if a minimum distance is set. Other issues include an increased logistical issues in loot distribution. If I'm playing with friends and they know I'm looking for a new shotgun then they'll leave them on the ground - with this system we'd have to figure out who got it, meet up if we weren't in the same location, have them dig through their inventory, drop it and only then can I finally get it. There's also the issue of junk items. If somebody is picking up a bunch of rando white items, I don't want them cluttering my inventory. There could be some sort of opt-in dialog to decide whether or not you want to roll for an item but that's adding more spam to an already busy screen and ultimately we're starting to create much ado about nothing as the benefits over free for all here are very marginal.
i think the first is something that would be easier to deal with than the mass looting issues, the second can easily be fixed by having the ability to toggle it. in something like WoW, you can can set multiple different systems for item looting.
TemplaerDude
Member
Yeah that can be annoying. I think my biggest issue is the "ooops you've gone down too much, we're just gonna scroll through it!" I think that's fucking bullshit, especially on single player, there are numerous points in the game where it practically leans on second wind. I mean, if that's the fucking case, just kill me, don't tease me with a nearly impossible goal.
omg yes. This is so fucking annoying. I thought for a while it was a bug at first, because the game doesn't ever explain this will happen when downed too much and wasn't in the 1st game. Just let us second wind as much as we want.
First Name
Member
It confused the shit out of me too (I also thought it was a bug, or something that happened at random) but I think the game tells you in some loading screen text. I remember reading the explanation in-game at some point.
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