So, your solution to the problem? How do we solve this?
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
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So, your solution to the problem? How do we solve this?
Kadayi
Banned
Differentiate. Now that's a word right there. Differentiate.
UN move in re-establish the 67 borders, the settlements within the region are annexed by Palestine.
Nice use of platitudes.
Link?
curlyfriski
Banned
I don't think there is any chance of a solution in the near future, considering the political realities of both the Palestinians and Israelis. There's no possible settlement that both sides could stomach. Two-state is dead or dying.
I think you're confusing the PLO with other groups.
Get the IDF the budget increase it wants and allow Bibi's wife to buy lawn furniture with taxpayers' money.
So, what do you do? Elaborate.
Kenshin001
Member
Israel withdrew from Gaza. Not exactly bulldozing them into the sea.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
The Palestinians are not attacking "just because". Ceasing their attacks will indeed stop the mutual munitions exchanges, yet will not guarantee an end to Israeli settlements in their land, it will not grant them sovereign status as a country, their own fully operational government and their own defense force (that isn't just a government/welfare/terrorist organization hybrid like Hamas). Essentially they will stop resisting their occupiers, yet get nothing in exchange for it. And since you're discussing realpolitik in this thread, you should be quite aware of why it's not reasonable to say to Palestine "just stop resisting, all those other things will come in time from the goodwill of Israel".
The peace process involves dealing with all of these issues, and both side wants more than the other side is willing to concede. Meanwhile, a disproportionate number of Palestinians are dying as a result of the conflict (because Israel has bigger sticks whenever tensions flare up and its time to trade blows) and illegal settlements continue unabated.
Kadayi
Banned
Merely amused that the word was even in your lexicon. Given your binary mindset I'm just taken aback that it's a concept you're aware of.
Anyway lets hear your solution. How do you solve the situation in the occupied territories. What's your master plan?
MisterFalcon
Member
The funny thing is that there was a UN force stationed on the 1967 borders. Then Nasser told them to fuck off and they did so immediately.
But will shooting rockets guarantee them a stop to Israeli settlements, sovereign status, their own fully operational government and their own defense force?
On the other side: Will abandoning all settlements and plans for it stop Hamas/Palestinians from attacking Israel?
curlyfriski
Banned
My ideal solution? Israel withdraws to '67 borders and abandons settlements, Palestine becomes a state with East Jerusalem as the capital, a substantial number of refugees are allowed back into Israel with others being compensated and settled in neighboring countries/the new Palestinian state. Overseen by UN force.
You don't get to deny million of people of their human rights because some of them might do something bad in the future.
If you think that a Palestinian state is an unacceptable threat to Israel (which is fucking silly if you ask me), give all the Palestinians Israeli citizenship and be done with it.
MisterFalcon
Member
Does this entail the removal of all Jews from those areas forming Palestine like in 1948 ?
edit: in case the answer is 'they're all settlers', what happens to the people forced out in 1948 by Jordan who returned after 1967 ?
Ye ''withdrew''..
I have none. You know why? Because I cannot assign blame to a single side in this matter. It is impossible. My problem lies with people blaming Israel and claiming the solution is solely in their hands. And it's gets especially concerning when that solution is: "stop defending yourself from rocket attacks" "ugh, Israel will you never learn". Because that implies only one thing, that Israel deserves the attacks. And that is an ugly viewpoint to have.
Kadayi
Banned
History is always so quaint when it's paraphrased.
This has been addressed earlier in the thread. Lets not circle around again
Don't give me excuses, give me solutions. No one here gives a shit about the blame game, so quit playing that card, it's frankly fucking tedious. If the house is on fire, you don't worry about who started it versus putting out the fire. So nut up.
curlyfriski
Banned
Only the residents of illegal settlements.
You have a solution, and that's to keep millions of people in the west bank without basic human rights and hold a perpetual crippling blockade on Gaza.
Keeping the status quo is a decision, and an unacceptable one if you ask me.
MisterFalcon
Member
The protection of the Jewish population that remains in Palestine and prevention of further attacks by radicals who still want to attack Israel will be the responsibility of the same omnipotent UN force that forced the Israeli withdrawal I guess.
Um, what?
Actually if you look at the reality of the situation Israel is the only one that has power to do anything. The Palestinians don't have the infrastructure, manpower or resources to somehow stop all rockets period. Which again goes back to Israel not letting them have those things. With Israel's nonstop aggression and systemic persecution it is just making the situation worse.
michaelius
Banned
Yeah as we know UN forces are really succesfull in keeping people safe in regions they are stationed and they time and time showed they have so much will to stop massacress from happening.
Keeping the status quo is a solution.
If you're not advocating a solution you're advocating the continuation of keeping millions of people with basic human right.
Do you believe that only Israel's actions make this whole situation worse?
I see what your saying and yes I have read it btw as a hobby mainly. I forgot completely about that last part of the article. I was saying that most of it is subject to interpretation based on the scenario.
When I read your response I thought you were trying to say that the responsibility falls onto the attacker (completely forgetting you said both parties can be responsible). This debate we are having is completely from my misunderstanding what you meant.
I understand it now and thank you
Anyways, I am tired, I probably shouldn't even be debating this stuff right now. Only slept 2 hours from 5PM to 7PM yesterday then worked until now.
As for the last part, I am just not seeing Hama's solution of firing rockets as anywhere near aiding the situation. A lot of people are not going to differentiate the PLO from Hamas. I just think they should try their best to rise their people up economically, if possible with cooperation from even Israeli companies.
Really, money can solve many issues just as much as it can cause it. Maybe better economic integration between PLO (even Hamas if they desire to) and Israel would do better to getting their people together. What U.N needs to do is just create a resolution that makes certain that the settlements beyond the 1967 borders will not be recognized except through negotiations between Palestine and Israel.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
If someone has a gun to your head, you don't try and punch them in the gut.
I feel like no one understands the undeniable fact that Israel has won. They dictate the conditions not the Palestinians. Both sides are not equal. Israel has won this outright. All the rockets and violence from the Palestinians amounts to someone struggling in handcuffs. They can struggle all they like, but they won't break free. If they struggle to hard, they might occasionally get beat down (ergo this latest operation).
Right now all they have is Israels mercy. All they can do is sit down and shut up, and earn their freedom in Israel's eyes. Struggling and spitting in their face will only make the cuffs tighter.
Israel won. They are a modern and progressive enough country that we (western world) are happy to leave it as that. The Palestinians have aligned themselves to many times with or enemies for us to care enough to change this or try and help them.
For things to change you all want Israel to back off, to conceed land, to open itself up to more risk and threats. Israel laughs at your ideas. Why would the reigning champion listen to you when it holds all the cards.
So where does that leave us? Oh right the Palestinians are the only ones left that can help themselves, because Israel sure as shit ain't. The Palestinians have to prove to us they are worth siding with.
What an embarrassing response. That doesn't even merit a reply. Yes Palestinians launching rockets into Israel make the situation worse. Happy now?
Now let's return to the fact that Israel is the only one capable of doing anything. Can you actually address my point instead of playing the Israel persecution complex card???
I would love to know how Palestine which is in shambles is supposed to stop rocket attacks.
I totally agree that economic prosperity has to be a priority of any solution, prosperous people don't put on suicide vests.
But the problem that Israel showed the Palestinians time and time again that it only understands force.
Look at the west bank, you have a reasonable moderate leadership, you have relative quiet, and what did they get for that?
More settlements.
Then why should Israel even move a finger? Palestine can't even guarantee stoppage of rocket attacks.
Velcro Fly
Member
The media has done an amazing job of demonizing the Palestinians to the point where Israel is literally shooting fish in a barrel and we're blaming the fish for trying to swim around.
Kadayi
Banned
But DOG didn't given them that Barrel
Interceptor
Banned
Is this a real post?
And stuff like this never hits the msm:
Israeli lawmakers apparently calls for genocide of Palestinian people.
http://www.reddit.com/r/rage/comments/2a596y/israeli_lawmakers_call_for_genocide_of/
curlyfriski
Banned
This is some insane villain stuff. What's even sadder is I bet the Israeli leadership has been saying this to themselves foro decades and wondering why the Palestinians haven't learned to love their masters yet.
Kadayi
Banned
Won what exactly? Also frankly bizarre that you're preaching that the Palestinians should accept a condition of oppression that denies them basic human rights. Who does that?
Those are not reasons, they're excuses.
curlyfriski
Banned
Yes. I truly believe that Israeli settlers, in general, want to control all of historic Palestine, and remove the remaining Palestinians from their lands. I believe this because they say it all the time.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Firing rockets is not the way to go though. It doesn't accomplish anything other than giving Israel the excuse for military action. I think Abbas is doing right there, I am not sure what else they can do, but rockets are definitely not the answer.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Yeah, settlers are crazy religious fanatics. They are almost cult-ish
Kenshin001
Member
He's right though. That is the history of some of the most successful Western democracies, the US, Australia, Canada are all based on settlement, displacement and subjugation of the losing side. The Europeans did the same thing in their colonies. The Israelis defeated the Arabs and in that context it seems unusual that they be the ones making concessions.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Pretty much ever conquering force in our entire history?
The war isn't over until one side concedes. Why should Israel when it's practically won?
That's the real blunt truth here no one wants to accept. Don't hate me for pointing out the obvious.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Coming from you, hahahaha
I was
Still pissed about the media hardly talking about it and the Bahrain situation in general
Yeah, because otherwise your other alternatives might not be recognized as representing everyone
Why teach them, they can just look and observe for themselves what crappy situations they're living in
I agree, that is a crappy response. Why not instead say "Okay, give it back to them in a treaty and let them have the terms which they're rightfully allowed to
And what does the bolded entail?
And they're a modern and progressive enough country that the sole reason that the UN hasn't taken action against Israel's actions various time has been the US, and US alone's veto?
And yes, I do want them to do that, as it is what is right, what would lead to peace in the region, and they should be "modern and progressive enough" to recognize this and do it
Pretty sure we're not living in the age where victor can do any damn thing they want anymore
curlyfriski
Banned
The difference is that in these countries the native population was substantially less than the colonizing one due to disease wiping out most of the population. All the military victories in the world won't resolve that problem.
theignoramus
Member
discussion on Al Jazeera inside story
Israel-Gaza tensions: Preparing for battle?
Ali Abunimah doesnt hold back.
Israel-Gaza tensions: Preparing for battle?
Ali Abunimah doesnt hold back.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
You don't do it all at once, but freezing all new settlements immediately, indefinitely and unconditionally is the first step. Even if the negotiations break down, there should be no more new settlements, period. There is no justification for their existence at all, Israel does not officially condone them and it is the Israeli government's responsibility to prevent their citizens from doing this. It will also be a much appreciated show of good intent to the international community as well as the Palestinians.
Giving up settlements will "stop the attacks" insofar as it is one of the things that is going to have to be conceded by Israel if it is actually interested in lasting peace. Precisely how many of the settlements and in which locations is naturally one of the main sticking points.
dripdripsplash
Member
The problem with this entire post and argument is that we simply don't live in a time of imperialism anymore. Now we have the UN, we have internationally agreed upon treaties and laws and alot of those are getting broken by Israel.
I would agree with you if this was start of the 20th century but it isn't. We're in 2014, shit like having millions of people without basic human rights doesn't fly anymore.
Edit: Your post is the "truth" 100 years ago. Thank God.
Kadayi
Banned
I'm not hating on anything. I just don't get what exactly history has to do with anything, or how it in any way some how justifies the continued oppression of the Palestinian people in the 21st century and the global community. This 'might is right' BS might go down well with a certain crowd, but it doesn't really cut it with me or others in this thread it seems.
Interceptor
Banned
In my opinion there are only two permanent "solutions" to this entire conflict and i don´t like both of them. My humanist, educated part doesn´t like them but i honestly think they are the only rational options left. One party has to leave. Permanently. And no, i am not talking about genozide, This word is much overused anyway in this whole context. But let me explain why before you rip me apart.
There is no option for peace. I always have to laugh if anyone brings up "peace talks". Why? Because the invisible man in the sky tells them so. Israel is surrounded by countries who litteraly believe its their holy mission to wipe the jews from the face of earth. And thats not the opinion of some peasants.. it´s the leaders who use this rhetoric again and again over the last 50 years. And there is not a single doubt they would try it immidiately if they feel powerful enough to do so. Thats the reason why Israel won´t allow any nukes around them - for good reason. You can´t make peace with someone who believes you are eating children and other horror stories. (Or believes in jewish nwo and other nonsense).
Occupied palestine? Their country? Please. I am not even remotely connected to either side but this whole argumentation is hillarious. It´s a religious hotspot and many ethnic groups claim it to be their "home" but there never was something like a state palestine. Those people claim to be refugees for what, 50 years now? Thats like 3 generations worth of people, with litterally billions of aid over the years and yet they elected a fanatic gropu to be their leaders and focus on a fight you can´t win instead of building a society. And please don´t use the word genocide anymore. I know these people are suffering and i honestly feel bad for both sides but using this word is disrespectful to the groups actually suffering from it. There are killings on both sides, but no genocide. It would be the worst genocide ever with an exploding population.
So what to do? Two states? Won´t happen - why? Because both sides wouldn´t be satisfied with it. Israel leaving? Not going to happen either. I honestly believe "moving" gaza to egypt or another country would be the hardest but ultimatly best solution. And yes i am aware of the "ironic" historical situation this would create. The whole wolrd (except the USA) hates Israel either way - nothing would change here, All the neighbouring countries would still like to nuke israel from the face of earth, nothing would change.
But the killing would stop, and thats the point.
I apologize if i offended someone with this and i really know how difficult this whole topic is. The whole situation is fucked up and i feel sorry for both sides. But if nothing happens this will go on forever. The first thing that dies in the middle east is the truth. And then the people follow. The only thing blooming there is hate and thats a tragedy.
Tldr: Pls don´t kill me.
There is no option for peace. I always have to laugh if anyone brings up "peace talks". Why? Because the invisible man in the sky tells them so. Israel is surrounded by countries who litteraly believe its their holy mission to wipe the jews from the face of earth. And thats not the opinion of some peasants.. it´s the leaders who use this rhetoric again and again over the last 50 years. And there is not a single doubt they would try it immidiately if they feel powerful enough to do so. Thats the reason why Israel won´t allow any nukes around them - for good reason. You can´t make peace with someone who believes you are eating children and other horror stories. (Or believes in jewish nwo and other nonsense).
Occupied palestine? Their country? Please. I am not even remotely connected to either side but this whole argumentation is hillarious. It´s a religious hotspot and many ethnic groups claim it to be their "home" but there never was something like a state palestine. Those people claim to be refugees for what, 50 years now? Thats like 3 generations worth of people, with litterally billions of aid over the years and yet they elected a fanatic gropu to be their leaders and focus on a fight you can´t win instead of building a society. And please don´t use the word genocide anymore. I know these people are suffering and i honestly feel bad for both sides but using this word is disrespectful to the groups actually suffering from it. There are killings on both sides, but no genocide. It would be the worst genocide ever with an exploding population.
So what to do? Two states? Won´t happen - why? Because both sides wouldn´t be satisfied with it. Israel leaving? Not going to happen either. I honestly believe "moving" gaza to egypt or another country would be the hardest but ultimatly best solution. And yes i am aware of the "ironic" historical situation this would create. The whole wolrd (except the USA) hates Israel either way - nothing would change here, All the neighbouring countries would still like to nuke israel from the face of earth, nothing would change.
But the killing would stop, and thats the point.
I apologize if i offended someone with this and i really know how difficult this whole topic is. The whole situation is fucked up and i feel sorry for both sides. But if nothing happens this will go on forever. The first thing that dies in the middle east is the truth. And then the people follow. The only thing blooming there is hate and thats a tragedy.
Tldr: Pls don´t kill me.
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