Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
So Captain Toad is a bad game because it isn't a game that you got on sale months after release and was released on a platform that has solid community support?
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Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker Review Thread
- Thread starter OrbitalBeard
- Start date
So Captain Toad is a bad game because it isn't a game that you got on sale months after release and was released on a platform that has solid community support?
Yeah, I'm trying my best to not reply to people obviously trying to get a rise out of me on this one.
And I feel at $20 this game would be a real steal or if it had more content. Hell if it had a level creator with it now, and then a promised expansion a couple months down the line for no extra cost that would also be fine. Then amiibos would themselves unlock ~20 themed levels to that character (ie: Link Amiibo unlocks some twilight princess themed levels, toon link makes wind waker levels, marth makes fire emblem, etc).
Its not so much to stop in general*, its fine and fun to discuss the proposition of value... and how it applies to puzzlers. If anything is a point of contention, is that the puzzle game genre is in general a pricey genre when compared to simply a "time investment" value. All the same, though, the developer creativity required to create a "puzzle" is a lot more than to create a level in a generic FPS. Conversely, the man-hours for a "puzzle" are likely considerably less than the man-hours for a level in a generic FPS. So how do you gauge cost in this type of scenario? I mean, its not doubt that Captain Toad had a 5$ budget in relative terms and will likely turn a profit with only a a couple hundred thousand (if even that many) sales.
Like the Portal 2 example. The game was 50$ at launch for about 5 hours of gameplay in single-player, and another 2 to 4 in co-op. That's 7-10 hours of content for 50$. A very, very high premium for the quality. There's also no real re-playability to a game like Portal/Portal 2. Braid was an "indie" game for 20$ and that was 5 hours long and got really repetitive after the first half. Quantum Conundrum was 10$ for about 5 hours, considerably lower production values though. Art of Balance (WiiU) was 9$ for about 4 hours of content (for me)... production values are very low for the title. So when you place Toad against its contemporaries, I don't really think its agreeable to say that this is staggeringly overpriced or a "slap in the face of gamers". That's just way over the top. You could argue it is overpriced, I don't think it is given what I know of the levels in 3DWorld x 70 levels, then again I don't measure my contentment with a game on how long I spent playing it.
*It's simply better to not get into pissing contests though over current gen bullocks.
opticalmace
Member
I think it's an interesting topic to discuss. The only thing I wanted to say though is that for me Portal 2 is one of the best games of all time... so my subjective value evaluation is skewed away from hours-per-dollar to enjoyment-per-hour. It may be brief but I had more fun playing Portal 2 than many other games in the last few years.
I'm all for arguing for the lowest price, but this said you already know it's at the right price and you just want it lower.
I think the more interesting (and sad) part that will arise from this discussion is that certain genres (like puzzle games) are seen by many as not worthy to be retail games regardless of content or presentation polish.
That's because for their nature they are not well suited for the current AAA model.
I don't think the main gripe here is 70 vs 140 stages...
Nor replayability.
A classic like Sega Rally has a "longevity", with its measly 3 (actually 4) tracks, which is considered unacceptable today, no matter the game divine replayability.
I did not think as highly of Portal 2 as 1, but it was a very good game and, as I said, you were paying a premium for the quality rather than the quantity. Toad is obviously not Portal in that regard.
That's why (after some edits) I included other puzzle game titles on consoles. Braid, QC, Art of Balance. These are the ones I could roll off the top of my head that I have bought, played, and completed. There's not much in the genre that comes and goes that frequently with a real worth to its production values.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I dunno, 100 levels of 3-5 minutes doesn't sound AAA price to me anymore. You don't even need to blame AAA, iOS and PC downloads offer similar options a lower price (but less polish, obviously)
OrbitalBeard
Member
I wouldn't consider Captain Toad a AAA-production but rather a highly polished mid-tier title from one of Nintendo's most talented studios.
This industry needs more mid-tier games. : ( We used to have so many.
No way is Toad a AAA game.
Its 1-year development from EAD's "undergraduates" built on the 3DWorld assets and engine. The main EAD Tokyo (G2) is working on Mario: Non-Euclidean Space Edition.
Surprised there was one that complained about its short content that time, though he did say that it's worth its purchase and gave it a very good score regardless. Good find, I must say!
Exactly, not everything needs to be a AAA 60$ title. I'm glad this is gonna be a 40$ game, and I so happy we are getting awesome games finally that are different than the usual mold of games, even for Nintendo. This and Kirby Rainbow Curse just look so good to me. If the game lasts 5-7 hours for me, that's more than enough as long as I enjoy the gameplay.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Might end up getting this relatively soon. I'm still too busy with Smash, but looks fun!
Principate
Saint Titanfall
People like you are the reason why mid tiers are dead on consoles. There I said it. Not every game needs reach some mythical content to time spent quota especially at a lower than normal price and not every game of smaller scope needs to be priced like indie titles which again inherently limit the budget of such titles to be feasible. Sometimes it's fine for higher budget experimental to exists.
Your essentially calling mid tiers as disgusting I'm sure the ps2 era, with it's large amount of smaller scope games must have been horrible for you.
...the difference between a "real steal" and a "slap in the face" is 20 dollars?
Really?
I don't think anyone is trying to get a rise out of you. Your posts are just pretty bizarre.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Speaking of Kirby, it's going to have a budget price in Japan, so we're probably looking at around $40 for it in the west as well! I'm liking this variable pricing thing Nintendo has going on.
ForsakenLotus
Member
If there is a segment of gamers who will buy something like this despite the "value proposition" it's Wii U fans.
Yup, it seems all anybody wants these days is AAA or it's shit. Mid Tier games are great to have and something this industry needs way more of, and if the game lasts 5 hours or so, it's still lasting a bit more than most average AAA games these days do anyway (if you don't count Multiplayer stuff). I wish more companies would start working on 30-40$ Mid Tier releases, games where risks are taken, and not all about the length of the game and how much time you spend getting collectibles just to artifically lengthen the game. I just want pure joy, even if it is short.
Holy crap, how long did Champion's Road take you!?!? I finished it in like 18 hours haha.
I've been looking some of this game screenshots... my god, definitely looks better than SM3DW, like, more details on textures (There's freaking cloth texture around Toad's Headband! ) and the overall lighting looks even more Pixar-esque than SM3DW. Also, it seems that Nintendo added a bit of AA, cuz jaggies are not so notorious compared to SM3DW when the game is zoomed in. Can't wait to take screenshots of this game <3
Same. I just love to admire levels and take my time with games. Super Mario 3D World took me around the same amount of playtime, and I'm sure this will be no exception, of course not 60 hours like SM3DW but certainly higher than 6-11 hours wich is the average lenght of this game that most reviewers claimed.
Same. I just love to admire levels and take my time with games. Super Mario 3D World took me around the same amount of playtime, and I'm sure this will be no exception, of course not 60 hours like SM3DW but certainly higher than 6-11 hours wich is the average lenght of this game that most reviewers claimed.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Subjective perception of value. How does it work.
tonyh24613
Member
I only finished a quarter of the game, took me 4~5 hours. I've watched someone on twitch 100% the game including all the
, took him more them 20 hours.
time trails
Champion's Road and the last Mystery House alone are 10+ hours... ;_;
Oh dang that sounds like quite a bit of content then?
tonyh24613
Member
I think he means more towards the 4~5 for the quarter of the normal game.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I feel like we say this a lot though. "Next year looks great" and then games get delayed.
Ideally, a consumer who is following reviews as purchasing advice would find reviewers that he/she generally agrees with, someone who has similar taste. Then the issue of subjectivity in games isn't so drastic. Asking the consumer to also find someone with similar disposable income (not that that is really ever disclosed, nor should it be) is asking way too much. Saying a game is sparse on content is totally fine, but I don't think the value is necessary to include.
tonyh24613
Member
But I 100% the first chapter, and I'm not skillful.
User 479360
Banned
This game is getting a midnight release (9PM Thrusday PST) on the Eshop correct? Getting the game digital, getting to play Thursday night would be really awesome. Love how Nintendo does those early releases like that for those of us on the West Coast US haha.
Also thinking about all this Mid-Tier stuff, wouldn't a classic Star Fox game work really well if sold as a 30-40$ experience than the usual 60$ game? I have a feeling that once we see more Star Fox, it may be a budget priced title as well which would be awesome. That's really if they go for the classic style only with no extras that diluted the later games in the series, just pure classic Star Fox action like SNES and N64. That way they can keep the classic arcade style gameplay of Star Fox and actually have it sell decent (don't know how many people would pay 60$ for a game that you can beat in like 1-3 hours even though it's very replayable.)
Oh nice review, excited to see what puzzling opportunities that the powerups bring. Double Cherries were pretty fun in 3D world. Also 7 hours seems pretty good if that's the time to complete all the levels outside of time trials. More than perfect for me
Also thinking about all this Mid-Tier stuff, wouldn't a classic Star Fox game work really well if sold as a 30-40$ experience than the usual 60$ game? I have a feeling that once we see more Star Fox, it may be a budget priced title as well which would be awesome. That's really if they go for the classic style only with no extras that diluted the later games in the series, just pure classic Star Fox action like SNES and N64. That way they can keep the classic arcade style gameplay of Star Fox and actually have it sell decent (don't know how many people would pay 60$ for a game that you can beat in like 1-3 hours even though it's very replayable.)
Oh nice review, excited to see what puzzling opportunities that the powerups bring. Double Cherries were pretty fun in 3D world. Also 7 hours seems pretty good if that's the time to complete all the levels outside of time trials. More than perfect for me
OrbitalBeard
Member
Yep!
It's kinda like how you were OK with paying $20 for the 4 hours of Transistor.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It may not be necessary, but similarly I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with it. It's part of the opinion of the reviewer, "I liked X, Y, Z and because of X, Y, Z, I think this game provides a great value for the price." Disposable income issues aside, I think the majority of people, even those with some money to throw around, still want to know if a game is worth their time and money. If a reviewer wants to address that directly, I don't think there's an issue with that. As you said, find a reviewer who has tastes you like and provides the kind of review you like. If you don't want a valuation of price, find a different reviewer who reviews differently.
ForsakenLotus
Member
I'm firmly in the camp of if a game is good buy it. The reason I pointed towards Wii U fans is because platformers are a genre that a lot of people simply don't think merit a full price. Some don't think they should be more than $30 dollars. Many of the best and most anticipated games on a Nintendo console are and will be platformers, and they still sell decent to great.
Beerman462
Member
I guess you could say Portal 2 and Toad have the same amount of content. Portal 2 was $50 more, but Portal 2 is filled with dialogue and has a great story. Cave Johnson alone is worth the extra ten bucks. If I ever play Capt Toad I would play it on mute, so I don't have to hear Toad's smoker voice.
I understand the value proposition from GB totally. They say the game feels like a mobile game. I think it looks like a mobile game. It's got game play similar to Monument Valley, with obvious advantages of having a controller. Some people are going to make a value judgment based on that. I like Dan and he seems to be a huge Nintendo fan, I don't think he has any ulterior motives.
I understand the value proposition from GB totally. They say the game feels like a mobile game. I think it looks like a mobile game. It's got game play similar to Monument Valley, with obvious advantages of having a controller. Some people are going to make a value judgment based on that. I like Dan and he seems to be a huge Nintendo fan, I don't think he has any ulterior motives.
Captain Toad isn't a Platformer, it's a puzzle game I thought. Toad can't even jump, so no platforming really going on.
That's what I always like about reviews, you get a wide range of views on a game so that you can get the full story before you purchase. It's nice to know the what others think of the value of a game compared to the even more positive reviews. That said 3/5 isn't even a bad score, everyone else scored it pretty high, don't see why anyone should be bothered by a single review or opinion. If you are unsure on the game, read reviews both high and low to get a good feel as to whether this game is for you or not.
I couldn't say that for the Wii U in 2014. It had a few great games, but not enough to fill a full year.
2015 can, though, assuming there's no delays.
That's fair. To give some background on my opinion, I follow Giant Bomb and they usually don't mention value. In fact, Jeff Gerstmann has explicitly mentioned a few times why they don't. So it's odd to see it, although Dan is newer than the rest of the staff. I don't really use reviews as purchasing advice though, so fortunately I won't have to find anyone new.
I understand your viewpoint and it makes total sense -- I just don't agree with it.
ForsakenLotus
Member
Platformers are thought of as too pricey. Nintendo fans buy good platformers regardless. Ergo, if a game is good but considered too pricey the Wii U audience is the audience most likely to buy the game despite the perceived lack of value.
I still haven't finished Champion's Road... hardest Mario level ever 5ever hahah omg.
This quote though:
HNNNGHHHHH <3
Depends on the platformer, really. I don't know of anyone who would argue that any 3D Mario platformer is too pricey. But a game like New Super Mario Bros is pretty easy to argue as being a bit too pricey as its fairly basic game.
Is DKTF too pricey for the game? Its a relatively short game but then its packed with polish, wonderful music, and level design is second-to-none.
3DWorld is a platformer... but its value proposition in terms of hours or content would be silly-pants to argue.