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[Lagunamov]

The majority of people wants a referendum.

This is propaganda too, that is not true.
Edit: I understood independence instead of referendum. That is true then.

Woah, El Pais now is "inflamatory spanish propaganda"? We are reaching a bit, are we?

El Pais is not a reliable source of information for this kind of topic, you can read a lot about how the freedom of expression has been vulnerated many times by them.

 

[ty_hot]

People protesting non stop from their balconies. What happened? It wasnt like this an hour ago when I went for dinner. Im near pl Universitat btw.

 

[Beefy]

Not really.

Then why?

 

[Business]

People protesting non stop from their balconies. What happened? It wasnt like this an hour ago when I went for dinner. Im near pl Universitat btw.

It’s a protest organised on social media for 10pm.

Thousands still out in the street in Rambla Catalunya.

 

[ty_hot]

It’s a protest organised on social media for 10pm.

Thousands still out in the street in Rambla Catalunya.

Oh boy, this looks more and more like Brazil everyday hahaha with the difference that Spain already has a corrupt as president, while in Brazil we got it after the protests lol.

 

[And_Gignac]

El Pais is biased as fuck.

 

[Vasilisk 2038]

El Pais is not a reliable source of information for this kind of topic, you can read a lot about how the freedom of expression has been vulnerated many times by them.

Some example/source

I know the current "Estado de las autonomias" its a disaster, and the current economic situation of Spain is more of the same, and the central government is deplorable and corrupted (and incredible how after all the scandals in the last elections they got MORE votes -_-).

But trying to crash head on with the central government (even if its about a referendum) is only going to end with both parts in a huge mess. Shit, its a PP government, what did you expect?

 

[turmoil]

El Pais is biased as fuck.

Yeah, someone posted eldiario.es some pages behind, their coverage is a lot better.

 

[Lagunamov]

Some example/source

I know the current "Estado de las autonomias" its a disaster, and the current economic situation of Spain is more of the same, and the central government is deplorable and corrupted (and incredible how after all the scandals in the last elections they got MORE votes -_-).

But trying to crash head on with the central government (even if its about a referendum) is only going to end with both parts in a huge mess. Shit, its a PP government, what did you expect?

https://www.google.sk/amp/m.publico.es/politica/sanchez-acusa-al-pais-alierta.html/amp

I dont find sources in english, but in this one you can see how Pedro Sánchez declares he was threated by ElPais in order to dont pact with Podemos (pro referendum).

 

[Onyar]

So proud of my country, the movement is pacifist and comes from the people not from the political parties like the centralist say.

I went to the demonstrations and we were a lot of people who put democracy before anything. In Barcelona the demonstration is still going.

Theres still hope for the democracy in this world.

Also we know a lot of spaniards are supporting us, we thank that a lot.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

when I saw this thread I thought it was going to be an easy vote for yes or no, but looking at recent news it does not seem like these people are going to even get to vote

 

[forknknife]

So proud of my country, the movement is pacifist and comes from the people not from the political parties like the centralist say.

I went to the demonstrations and we were a lot of people who put democracy before anything. In Barcelona the demonstration is still going.

Theres still hope for the democracy in this world.

Also we know a lot of spaniards are supporting us, we thank that a lot.

To me a unilateral declaration of independence when the other half of the population is against it is not the most democratic way of doing things.

Catalunya has every right to ask for a referendum, and I'm sure it'll come eventually, just not under a government from the PP, of course.

But a unilateral declaration of independence is no joke. Look at the list of countries who've gone through such a process. See where they were coming from or what that independence resulted in. I'll tell you, violence.

I get you are fucking pissed at so many years of PP, so much corruption, the economic crisis, etc. But, seriously, are you Catalonians and the rest of us Spanish so different? Do you really think it is a good idea to circumvent all legal agreements and set Catalunya on a collision course not just against the rest of Spain but against the other half of its population? Do you really think it'll be worth it?

Probably it's because I was born in Galicia and lived all my life in Valencia that I never really had any sort of strong nationalistic sentiment in me. In fact, I can't really understand nationalism, be it Spanish, Catalan or Basque, it's all just nonsense to me. Through all my childhood I watched tons of Catalan TV, it was my favorite, and I have tremendous appreciation for Catalunya. This whole thing really saddens me a lot because it just feels incredibly alienating.


A few months back I still had some hope that things could somehow go back to the way they were before but now, after these last weeks, I'm afraid that the relation between Catalunya and the rest of Spain will never be the same again and it can only get worse now. So, at this point, even though I'd prefer Catalunya to stay in some form, I think that I'd take whatever solution as long as tension does not continue escalating. But that, also, seems like wishful thinking at this point. There's so much shit ahead coming our way...

 

[Vasilisk 2038]

So proud of my country, the movement is pacifist and comes from the people not from the political parties like the centralist say.

In this moment still there are Guardia Civil agents trapped in the Conserjeria de Economia, and only now the Mossos d'Squadra are trying to dissolve the demonstration (oh so peaceful these people). And "fun fact", some of these "peaceful" demonstrators have attacked the police cars, and even stole the weapons inside, and only with the mediation of a catalonian politic (they don't say who) the demonstrators gave back the weapons. I dont have a source in english but in spanish its now in several diaries and in EFE agency. So yeah, clearly this is going to be so peaceful and democratic -_-.

 

[Business]

In this moment still there are Guardia Civil agents trapped in the Conserjeria de Economia, and only now the Mossos d'Squadra are trying to dissolve the demonstration (oh so peaceful these people). And "fun fact", some of these "peaceful" demonstrators have attacked the police cars, and even stole the weapons inside, and only with the mediation of a catalonian politic (they don't say who) the demonstrators gave back the weapons. I dont have a source in english but in spanish its now in several diaries and in EFE agency. So yeah, clearly this is going to be so peaceful and democratic -_-.

Many would wish it was not peaceful but rest assured it is. You can try to spin this as much as you want but today’s demonstrations are as civilized and peaceful as it gets.

 

[spindoctor]

But a unilateral declaration of independence is no joke. Look at the list of countries who've gone through such a process. See where they were coming from or what that independence resulted in. I'll tell you, violence.

Throughout the history of the world, independence has always been taken, never given. "It's not your time yet" is the oldest excuse in the book given by those who seek to maintain the status quo. I'm rather impressed that the Catalan people tried to do this with a peaceful process because independence rarely comes without blood being spilled. Of course what they're doing is technically illegal because no country in the world allows secession to be legal, but the right to self determination is paramount. You will have an unending conflict if you do not allow people to choose what is best for themselves.

 

[Vasilisk 2038]

Many would wish it was not peaceful but rest assured it is. You can try to spin this as much as you want but today’s demonstrations are as civilized and peaceful as it gets.

I can also quote photos fella, less "curated" and more recent:

But yeah, fake news, Madrid centralists spinning our peaceful fight for democracy etc..

EDIT An by the way, no comment about the weapons theft? Last time I was in Spain, I think it was not very normal to assault a police car and steal weapons, but ey, maybe now its the "peaceful" way to protest.

 

[Business]

I can also quote photos fella, and less "curated" and more recent:

Why are you so upset at me quoting photos fella?

I admit I had not seen this decorated police car, still it would hardly qualify as violence would it.

 

[Vasilisk 2038]

Why are you so upset at me quoting photos fella?

I admit I had not seen this decorated police car, still it would hardly qualify as violence would it.

So, this is decorating a car for you? (for the non spanish speakers, click the first video). And by the way, keep ignoring me in the weapons theft issue.

 

[lastplayed]

Throughout the history of the world, independence has always been taken, never given.

Not always. I live in a country that had to be pushed through the independence door by Britain.

 

[Business]

So, this is decorating a car for you? (for the non spanish speakers, click the first video). And by the way, keep ignoring me in the weapons theft issue.

But which weapons are you talking about? Did anybody shoot or threaten anyone with a gun or took any guns home?

So tonight a car from the Guardia Civil was vandalised with stickers and basically... trash and you claim there are reports someone took arms that were left inside and later through the intervention of an unnamed man they were given back. Sinister... arrest 40kpeople now.

EDIT: Look I think vandalising a police car is unjustifiable and it was a mistake by whoever did it. At the end of the day the police have their weapons, they will clean their car, and what remains is a picture that will serve as ammo to people just like you, people that are literally salivating at the prospect of delegitimizing a modelic and pacific movement because of such isolated acts (mistakes yes).

 

[forknknife]

Throughout the history of the world, independence has always been taken, never given. "It's not your time yet" is the oldest excuse in the book given by those who seek to maintain the status quo. I'm rather impressed that the Catalan people tried to do this with a peaceful process because independence rarely comes without blood being spilled. Of course what they're doing is technically illegal because no country in the world allows secession to be legal, but the right to self determination is paramount. You will have an unending conflict if you do not allow people to choose what is best for themselves.

Fair enough. It's just that then it cannot be called a purely democratic process from their part since their independence will be forced onto the other half of their own population.

And, as I said, look at other examples of unilateral declarations of independence and see how many of them ended in a peaceful way https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_declaration_of_independence

 

[Green Yoshi]

What will happen if the Catalonian government declare its independance but Spain won't accept it? A situation like in Donezk? Can they exist on their own? How will France secure the border? Just buying food in France would be the easiest solution for Cataonia.

 

[KingSnake]

Maybe PSG can pay the release clause for Catalonia.

 

[Acorn]

Don't know enough about this but I'm a little confused at some snp politicans co opting this.

I'm pro independence but feel we really shouldn't meddle in others affairs.

 

[Violet_0]

can they even have a normal, undisturbed voting process without the Spanish government intervening? It's not like they're going to do just nothing come first of October

let's say the vote ends in favor of secession, Catalonia declares independence, Spain refuses to accept the result. What then?

 

[His Majesty]

Don't know enough about this but I'm a little confused at some snp politicans co opting this.

I'm pro independence but feel we really shouldn't meddle in others affairs.

Makes sense as a succesful European independence movement will add momentum to others.

I think the most logical stance for the SNP would not be to support Catalan independence but to endorse their referendum. After all this is all about self-determination.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

What will happen if the Catalonian government declare its independance but Spain won't accept it? A situation like in Donezk? Can they exist on their own? How will France secure the border? Just buying food in France would be the easiest solution for Cataonia.

The best part of all of this is how catalans are convinced they can make it on their own.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Don't know enough about this but I'm a little confused at some snp politicans co opting this.

I'm pro independence but feel we really shouldn't meddle in others affairs.

Isn't it obvious? There are clear parallels and they hope Catalan independence will inspire Scotland. On the other hand, if things turn to shit in Spain/Catalonia I imagine they will regret that approach.

 

[deathkiller]

can they even have a normal, undisturbed voting process without the Spanish government intervening? It's not like they're going to do just nothing come first of October

A normal undisturbed voting process? It can only happen if it the vote is shielded inside the regional elections, which by the way it happened in the last elections. The issue was that the pro-independence where divided in three groups with one of them not being 100% pro-independence and the other two having less than half of the votes.

There is also the possibility of an unofficial vote (the referendum is only illegal because the involvement of the regional government and public money). Again, this happened before and less than half voted in it.

 

[Arnie]

The best part of all of this is how catalans are convinced they can make it on their own.

I think the idea is that whether they flourish or flounder, doing so independently as Catalans is preferred to a forced union with Spain.

 

[Cappa]

The best part of all of this is how ignorant catalan politicians are convinced they can make it on their own.

Edited because I do not think majority of catalanes want to secede from Spain lol.

I work at a multinational, in Spain, and a lot of the industries in Catalonia are extremely worried about the situation and many are tlaking about leaving Catalunya etc. I do not know anyone personally who wants a secession from Spain, and I have quite a few family and friends living in the outer Barcelona area.

 

[Johnny M]

can they even have a normal, undisturbed voting process without the Spanish government intervening? It's not like they're going to do just nothing come first of October

let's say the vote ends in favor of secession, Catalonia declares independence, Spain refuses to accept the result. What then?

Exactly that happened between the Faroe Islands and Denmark during the 40s, and after the referendum in which secession won by 0.73% over the union, the Danish government just didn't accept the result and Faroese parliament was dissolved.

 

[Westbahnhof]

I think the idea is that whether they flourish or flounder, doing so independently as Catalans is preferred to a forced union with Spain.

Yeah, but this idea seems incredibly selfish to me.
Ignoring the potential suffering of the younger generations, simply assuming that independence is worth any amount of poverty, hunger, maybe armed conflict, you name it.

 

[Acorn]

Makes sense as a succesful European independence movement will add momentum to others.

I think the most logical stance for the SNP would not be to support Catalan independence but to endorse their referendum. After all this is all about self-determination.

Agreed.

Isn't it obvious? There are clear parallels and they hope Catalan independence will inspire Scotland. On the other hand, if things turn to shit in Spain/Catalonia I imagine they will regret that approach.

I mean it just seems desperate and does no good to attach yourself to something you don't control. Plus I'm sure there are nuances that they are overlooking that could bite the entire movement in the arse. I remember the whole salmond obsession with Iceland, thats still used against the snp 10 years later.

 

[Crow Pudding]

Edited because I do not think majority of catalanes want to secede from Spain lol.

I work at a multinational, in Spain, and a lot of the industries in Catalonia are extremely worried about the situation and many are tlaking about leaving Catalunya etc. I do not know anyone personally who wants a secession from Spain, and I have quite a few family and friends living in the outer Barcelona area.

The majority of catalan people don't want to secede from spain, but also don't want to be in the same terms, with constant disdain from the central government, laughing at us every time they have a chance.

The problem is not with spain, is with spain's government.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Worst possible outcome for the SNP is if Catalonia succeeds in ceding, gets booted out of the EU and collapses. That would set Scotland back fifty years. Better to be cautious, say you support self-determination but otherwise bide your time until you can see which way the wind is blowing. If succession is a success, then by all means hitch your wagon, if not, emphasise the differences. Silly to jump in now.

Which is essentially exactly what you just said with different words.

 

[Hrothgar]

Worst possible outcome for the SNP is if Catalonia succeeds in ceding, gets booted out of the EU and collapses. That would set Scotland back fifty years. Better to be cautious, say you support self-determination but otherwise bide your time until you can see which way the wind is blowing. If succession is a success, then by all means hitch your wagon, if not, emphasise the differences. Silly to jump in now.

Which is essentially exactly what you just said with different words.

Why? Scotland will be out of the EU in 1.5 years anyway.

 

[barber]

The majority of catalan people don't want to secede from spain, but also don't want to be in the same terms, with constant disdain from the central government, laughing at us every time they have a chance.

The problem is not with spain, is with spain's government.

I am still salty for the second election results, that shit hit harder and i don't know why.

 

[marcbret87]

can they even have a normal, undisturbed voting process without the Spanish government intervening? It's not like they're going to do just nothing come first of October

let's say the vote ends in favor of secession, Catalonia declares independence, Spain refuses to accept the result. What then?

Then nothing happens, because La Generalitat has no way to grab independence. The 1st Oct referendum is a farce because of this.

 

[norinrad]

Maybe PSG can pay the release clause for Catalonia.

Hahaha.

 

[Gintamen]

First i start to work in London-> Brexit happens
I started to work in Barcelona 1 1/2 months ago -> Catalonia independence

Starting to think it’s my fault

Plan has been in motion for years.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Why? Scotland will be out of the EU in 1.5 years anyway.

It remains to be seen exactly how 'out' Scotland will be and how that will compare to the how 'out' Catalonia will be. And of course Scotland will be campaigning to rejoin. If that proves difficult for Catalonia, it bodes ill for Scotland.

 

[marcbret87]

Why? Scotland will be out of the EU in 1.5 years anyway.

Well, if Catalonia has a hard time outside of the EU for Scotland it might be a cautionary tale since they would have to:

1. Get out of the UK
2. Apply for membership
3. Hope that all members agree (Spain included)

I don't think it would be so detrimental, but some Scottish people might think twice about independence if Catalonia's experience goes sour.

 

[AuthenticM]

Of course what they're doing is technically illegal because no country in the world allows secession to be legal

Canada does. So says its Supreme Court!

 

[psychowave]

I think seceding is dumb as shit, but I also think it's up to them to decide. If we made the terrible mistake of electing PP again and again, then the people of Catalonia have the right to make the terrible mistake of seceding.

 

[Domaje]

Woah, El Pais now is "inflamatory spanish propaganda"? We are reaching a bit, are we?

This is what I hate more of the current independent catalan movement, the radicalization and extremism of the political views. The situation is a total shitshow, the current central and catalan government, BOTH they don't care a shit about their citizens. And its amazing (as usual) how a lot of spaniards (from both sides) are played in this game. I shouldn't be surprised.

El Pais is pretty partial.

 

[MrChom]

Of course what they're doing is technically illegal because no country in the world allows secession to be legal, but the right to self determination is paramount.

The UK does. Any British territory can ask to become independent and the UK government will attempt to facilitate it. This is after the utter mess we made of such things in the past. If Gibraltar wanted to secede it could do so, same with the Falklands, the Isle of Man....even Scotland has had a referendum on the matter.

We're basically held together by apathy at this point.

 

[Charles Brandon]

The UK does. Any British territory can ask to become independent and the UK government will attempt to facilitate it. This is after the utter mess we made of such things in the past. If Gibraltar wanted to secede it could do so, same with the Falklands, the Isle of Man....even Scotland has had a referendum on the matter.

We're basically held together by apathy at this point.

In addition, any Crown territory (Canada, New Zealand, various Caribbean territories, Australia etc) can throw off the yoke of the British monarchy at any time of their choosing. Mostly they choose not to, amusingly.

 

[Dierce]

Worst possible outcome for the SNP is if Catalonia succeeds in ceding, gets booted out of the EU and collapses. That would set Scotland back fifty years. Better to be cautious, say you support self-determination but otherwise bide your time until you can see which way the wind is blowing. If succession is a success, then by all means hitch your wagon, if not, emphasise the differences. Silly to jump in now.

Which is essentially exactly what you just said with different words.

This is very true. I don't understand why they are doing this now with the corrupt and fascist PP government in power. They should wait for the socialist to take over again or something better when peaceful negotiation is more likely.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Spanish state showing it's true colors, it's time to split that up