Fernando Garea leaving El Pais should say enough of what that newspaper is becoming.
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Fernando Garea leaving El Pais should say enough of what that newspaper is becoming.
Sigh, Putin can fold his fingers like Mister Burns and go "Excellent.".
Spain and their corrupt government fell right for the trap, he send money to the Catalan independence movement, hoping Spain would go mental about it, and Spain just did.
Now the EU is in another crisis while he can sing, in the words of that Russian Singer of Meme Fame: TROOOOOOOLLLOLLOLOOOOOOOOO!
Seriously Rajoy, W T FLYING F!
But then what do you expect from a man that is all for Bullfighting and against Gay Marriage.
He fell right for the bleeding nationalist trap, that was set up for hm. Rather than go "Okay, fair enough, let's try to make you an EU member state so you are a complete part of the European project and we can trade normally without any boundaries what so ever. Also will go smoother that way." had they voted for independence
NOOOOPE!
Seriously hope normal Spanish people can see the idiocy of this man and notice that he is just trying to become popular by scapegoating Catalans in general for a minority movement funded by Russian money
. Now they certainly will call for independence (The harder you squeeze the more will move through your fingers) and you've destabilized your allies with it. Well done you conservative populist fuck!
Seriously:
Orban,
Kaczyński,
Erdogan,
Rajoy,
Wilders,
Trump,
Kim Family,
Duterte,
And all of those idiots, and their playing of the masses..... are they all that keen on a bloody war? As Spain is looking at a civil war, as Rajoy is like only one riot away from it blowing up.
Spain and their corrupt government fell right for the trap, he send money to the Catalan independence movement, hoping Spain would go mental about it, and Spain just did.
Now the EU is in another crisis while he can sing, in the words of that Russian Singer of Meme Fame: TROOOOOOOLLLOLLOLOOOOOOOOO!
Seriously Rajoy, W T FLYING F!
But then what do you expect from a man that is all for Bullfighting and against Gay Marriage.
He fell right for the bleeding nationalist trap, that was set up for hm. Rather than go "Okay, fair enough, let's try to make you an EU member state so you are a complete part of the European project and we can trade normally without any boundaries what so ever. Also will go smoother that way." had they voted for independence
NOOOOPE!
Seriously hope normal Spanish people can see the idiocy of this man and notice that he is just trying to become popular by scapegoating Catalans in general for a minority movement funded by Russian money
. Now they certainly will call for independence (The harder you squeeze the more will move through your fingers) and you've destabilized your allies with it. Well done you conservative populist fuck!Seriously:
Orban,
Kaczyński,
Erdogan,
Rajoy,
Wilders,
Trump,
Kim Family,
Duterte,
And all of those idiots, and their playing of the masses..... are they all that keen on a bloody war? As Spain is looking at a civil war, as Rajoy is like only one riot away from it blowing up.
So as someone very ignorant: what reasons does Spain have for entertaining this possibility? If Catalunya secedes, it gives reason for other nations and cultures inside Spain to break apart, and I doubt Spain wants to lose Barcelona's economy of tourism, industry and business. It's arguably the best city in Spain. I mean, Italy is made of several former states, and they are arguably better unified.
chromatic9
Member
Not good examples. These are already recognized countries. Scotland is merely part of a union.
A better example would be to imagine Cornwall or Tyneside seceding and how difficult that would be. People have to stop with the Catalonia Scotland comparison, Scotland is very much a world recognized separate country. The only thing to draw upon is how quick these can join the EU.
Sigh, Putin can fold his fingers like Mister Burns and go "Excellent.".
Spain and their corrupt government fell right for the trap, he send money to the Catalan independence movement, hoping Spain would go mental about it, and Spain just did.
Now the EU is in another crisis while he can sing, in the words of that Russian Singer of Meme Fame: TROOOOOOOLLLOLLOLOOOOOOOOO!
Seriously Rajoy, W T FLYING F!
But then what do you expect from a man that is all for Bullfighting and against Gay Marriage.
He fell right for the bleeding nationalist trap, that was set up for hm. Rather than go "Okay, fair enough, let's try to make you an EU member state so you are a complete part of the European project and we can trade normally without any boundaries what so ever. Also will go smoother that way." had they voted for independence
NOOOOPE!
Seriously hope normal Spanish people can see the idiocy of this man and notice that he is just trying to become popular by scapegoating Catalans in general for a minority movement funded by Russian money
Seriously:
Orban,
Kaczyński,
Erdogan,
Rajoy,
Wilders,
Trump,
Kim Family,
Duterte,
And all of those idiots, and their playing of the masses..... are they all that keen on a bloody war? As Spain is looking at a civil war, as Rajoy is like only one riot away from it blowing up.
Putin has nothing to do here. This escalated for other reasons, and has been going for way way older times.
They want to hold an ilegal referendum about independence 1 Oct.. Spain gov blocked it, Catalonia gov wants to do it no matter what.
As you say Spain has no reason to allow the secession of Catalunya, hence this current shitshow.
That being said I don't think other nations would want to leave Spain, with only the Basque nation being doubtful (I still don't think so)
Theonik
Member
Spain doesn't which is why they have been trying to block the referendum. The Catalan population on the other hand is pro-having the referendum as is their elected autonomous government.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
not pro-catalonian independence, but damn is madrids response to this bad and making me thing, maybe they have a point?
still feel that in general catalonia isnt really a nation in the same way scotland, basque country, etc are. but its super frightening when a government starts being dickish if you dare advocate that.
still feel that in general catalonia isnt really a nation in the same way scotland, basque country, etc are. but its super frightening when a government starts being dickish if you dare advocate that.
ClosingADoor
Member
Zero reason. Both Spain and the EU have no interest in letting this happen. It will just create a ton of problems for little reason.
What Spain needs to do is hand over more power to the region, while keeping it together.
This whole situation is a shitshow. The Catalan gov knows they can´t declare independence on their own and most of all, they know they don´t represent the majority of the people in Cataluña. Even if they declared independence, they would end up with a split nation where a movement to unilaterally adhere Cataluña back to Spain some months down the line would be just as justified.
On the other hand, the Spanish gov is doing everything on it´s hands to make everything escalate towards the most conflicting situation possible. Without ETA the PP needs an enemy of the nation which it can use to paint themselves as the defenders of Spain. It´s also their magic word to instantly discredit any opponents´ claims, just like they do with ETA by drawing imaginary connections to it with everyone that may threat their power position.
Both govs are doing what´s best for them in order to secure votes and what´s worse for their people. Also, both govs have been recently hit by huge corruption scandals, yet that has totally left the conversation as the referendum is much bigger news.
On the other hand, the Spanish gov is doing everything on it´s hands to make everything escalate towards the most conflicting situation possible. Without ETA the PP needs an enemy of the nation which it can use to paint themselves as the defenders of Spain. It´s also their magic word to instantly discredit any opponents´ claims, just like they do with ETA by drawing imaginary connections to it with everyone that may threat their power position.
Both govs are doing what´s best for them in order to secure votes and what´s worse for their people. Also, both govs have been recently hit by huge corruption scandals, yet that has totally left the conversation as the referendum is much bigger news.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
You have a strong movement in Italy who want to separate itself from the south, but to understand the current situation in Spain, we must go back to the rule of Franco. The notion of "spanish-ness" was imposed against all kind of regionalism. Also the civil war was Barcelona against Madrid.
It's very similar to the Kurdish situation in Turkey. You cannot understand Kurdish nationalism without going back to Ataturk state building and what does that meant for kurds.
Soon or later, this is going to happen. You cannot force a country in if they don't want to be part of you. Or you make them want to be part of you, or you accept that they will separate themselves.
LMAO.
Charles Brandon
Member
I don't think the difference is a large as you make it out to be and what difference there is is mostly to do with nomenclature. Scotland does tend to recognised independently more often but that's mostly just to do with sport. It has it's own government, but then so does Catalonia. I think the comparison is much closer than one with an English county, It's hard to imagine them seceding because there is is no serious separatist movement anywhere in England. The most likely county to breakaway would be Cornwall but it's still inconceivable.
Yeah bullshit on that part of the civil war. Madrid was one of the republican cities that suffered the most during the civil war, as well as some of the more industrial regions of spain like the vasque country or the steel factories in Asturias.
The part of spanish-ness is true, and as some catalonian in this same threat has said, it meant 40 years of not being able to speak catalonian in public (similar cases for galician and vasque which are also cooficial languages now). And as shown before, the topic of independence was quite close (similar to the Scottish case) and PP acting like this (even if a good chunk of spain would be ok with a real referendum) only helps the separatist movement.
This would be the best outcome tbh, but so far seems that only IU(small leftist party) is proposing constitutional reform.
And with PP in power and PSOE being their lapdogs any hope of change is dead on arrival.
Seriously I don't understand PSOE, it looks like they are after the votes of old madrid royalist instead of thinking in the future. I doubt Spain as it is today will exist in 20 years.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Of course Madrid suffered, but you cannot deny the symbolic role of the Madrid vs Barcelona during the whole civil war. You find it even in the football.
Which symbolic role? Madrid stood as a sore thumb of republicanism as their surroundings fell and the republican leaders where forced to abandon it to be able to direct the war. It still was under republican control for 2 years and a half . Whenever people talk about Madrid in the civil war they think about that, not about how it is a symbol of Franco.
Now, if you talk about the centralization of Spain during the dictatorship you would be right, but during the civil war? NO
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
You are right, i was under the false impression that Madrid has fallen way before Barcelona under nationalist control.
I remember they replaced the Director when the Google News thing with a government's puppet.
And then Google went and closed it lol
Business
Member
On a constitutional reform, my opinion is that for most of the people who supports independence today that boat sailed a few years ago. I sometime wonder if people in Spain even realizes the absolute emotional detachment from a very significant part of our society towards Spain and how difficult if not impossible it will be to turn things around. Days like yesterday only make more people cross this line.
marcbret87
Member
Well, to be honest, the government has just arrested the people that was organising a referendum that is illegal. Given the referendum is illegal, spending public money on it is also illegal. I don't think the government is being particularly dickish about their attitude. Is is common that a government does not allow a part of their territory to secede unilaterally. I am a Catalan but I live abroad, I can understand the complaints of the people, but this is not repression, this is simply upholding the law. The Catalan government has no way of achieving independence so they are just clashing head on with Madrid with the hope that they will gain some internal and international support.
They probably got some polling data that showed it was heading toward a vote for independence and felt they had to respond. Losing Catalonia would be a massive blow to the Spanish nation state. I'm not convinced yet that this won't lead to some sort of armed conflict.
You can't blame the Catalans for wanting independence, but it feels like their anger is misdirected. If Spain was a decentralized federation that wasn't stuck in the non-German EU economic ghetto, this whole series of events could have likely been avoided.
UltraMagnanimous
Member
Barca or Espanyol?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
...More like they figured out that polls were consistently showing declining support.
http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-independence-spain-support-for-drops-poll/
Theonik
Member
Ah yes, a singular poll that also appears to indicate that Spain should play this out, what a great reason for stopping a referendum.
There are lots of polls on this, and it doesnt matter much if its currently trending up or down, what matters is that opinion is divided and a non binding referendum would be just a large poll, which is pretty dumb. A binding referendum would be even dumber, since obviously their politicians wouldnt push towards returning to Spain if they became independent but support for independence dropped to 49%, would they? Once people make up their minds the democratic process will follow.
Waiting it out is the right call, and the so called referendum should not happen yet. People who want to stay happen to actually have rights too, and independence should be a one way street, not a revolving door.
Business
Member
Thats an inventive one. No referendum because what if after YES wins support drops, then you want to come back, thats bullshit, ergo no referendum to start with. Bravo.
Theonik
Member
Except the electorate overwhelmingly wants a referendum. Precisely to put this bs to rest.
How the hell would a referendum that mirrors the split shown by polls would settle the issue?
Do you think pro independence movement would just take a 49% loss and go whelp, I guess thats that, were spanish forever now?
You don't stop a seperatist movement that wants to secede because they percieve the state Spain as oppressive with high profile arrests.
Being technically in the right arguably makes the whole thing even worse. That's precisely what they argue they need to secede from.
Compromises, conscessions, reform ect. to diffuse the situation could follow such a vote. It's true that regardless what happens, this is not going away just because of a vote.
I dont see why those things cant be done without the referendum or how the referendum would help those things happen. More importantly, the referendum is being pushed by fanatics who (notice the original post of this thread) would consider any victory of yes a binding support of independence from the whole region. Surely we can at least agree that leaving Spain forever with a support of 55% is just as dumb as disbanding any independence claims forever after a support of 45%, right?
marcbret87
Member
Again, what is the government in Madrid supposed to do? The Catalan government is overstepping its jurisdiction by calling a referendum to secede. They are doing that despite the fact that, even in their own parliament, they have a slim majority of 72 vs 63. They are spending public money on something that has been deemed illegal. They are supposed to just let it go? In a way, it might be better, because even if they were to hold a vote and the option to secede would win, they have no way of grabbing independence. Whereas now the Catalan government can play the victim, which is what they were looking for all along.
Absolutely.
I'm not saying the secessionists are in the right here. Just that even disregarding the fanatics, there's obviously conflicts that need adressing. Even if the legal crackdown is justified, it's not going to solve much on its own.
His Majesty
Banned
What I think Madrid should have done is simply acknowledge the referendum. It is clear there is a large majority in support of organizing the referendum in Catalonia. Alternatively they could have continued passively resisting the referendum, which likely would have solved nothing.
By violently cracking down on the organization of the referendum, Madrid will push a lot of Catalans in the direction of the peaceful independence movement. To me it is clear that Spain will not allow Catalonia to organize its referendum on the 1st of October and is willing to use violence to accomplish that feat. Catalonia on the other hand seems unwilling to resort to such tactics. So while this might be a succesful short term strategy, it alienates more and more people from Madrid (both on the national and international stage) and will only lead to more unrest and autonomy in Catalonia in the future.
I don't believe in violent repression by the way and fully support Catalonia's efforts in their venture for self-determination.
Charles Brandon
Member
The smart way to deal with this IMO would be to acknowledge the strength of feeling in Catalonia but not the October referendum, which is illegal and not subject to rules that ensure its integrity. Spain should offer an official referendum at a date sometime in 2018 or possibly 2019 that would give both sides time to prepare their campaigns and conduct a national debate. This would also give the Spain the ability to set the terms. They could implement a minimum turnout stipulation that invalidates the result if a certain % of the electorate don't vote. They could also set the bar at 60% for required.
curi0usBystander
Member
And here's where the problem is. The PP leadership (and by extension the spanish goverment) is opposed to any sign of catalan nationalism or what they think is nationalism (in the end that was the deciding factor to chose Rajoy as party leader). So i don't see them ever allowing a referendum or acknowledging one coming from the catalan parliament.
Theonik
Member
It would not. But it was Spain's refusal to offer any kind of resolution to Catalonia that lead to this. An official referendum at a later date and an offer closer to what the Basque get would probably help diffuse the situation in the short term.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
I will comment only once I see those new nations flag
That's the key to this all
That's the key to this all
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Fucking Yuck
No secession!
Talk about a gaudy flag, yellow and red, where the fuck is the hot dog and bun at?, to complete this
His Majesty
Banned
Im not sure if I agree with your first sentence, but it is a posibility.
Heres the thing, though... would an offer closer to what the Basque get be any better for Spain than complete independence? Also, short term? Doesnt seem like a great deal.
Theonik
Member
Diffusing the situation short term and hoping the sentiment goes down long term is the only way one could go about it. I don't see how you can hope for Catalonia to want to stay if you don't offer them reasons to stay.
But do we want them to stay at any cost?
marcbret87
Member
Again, they are not violently cracking down on the referendum. A judge ordered the arrest of the people in the government (none of them elected) that were preparing the referendum. And they are taking actions to ensure an illegal referendum is not funded with public money. If that is repression for you then well, okay, but this is just justice asking.
A referendum should have been allowed, but a non-binding one. If Yes would have won, the government would have had to agree to take the steps necessary to ensure independence. But, that might leave a lot of people in Catalonia dissapointed, since they think they can secede while staying in the EU and keeping their Spanish passport.
But that would mean that the government would have to do political work and Rajoy's government it's sadly known for not doing things and let problems fix for themselves.
deathkiller
Member
The minority government of Spain opposes to the very possibility of a referendum. I still believe that is possible to convince the majority of the Spaniards that independence referendums should be legal, but the talk should be with the people not with the parties.
I have always disliked how the pro-independence think that Rajoy can be used to bypass the will of the Spaniards and thus is only his fault that the referendum is illegal.
I have always disliked how the pro-independence think that Rajoy can be used to bypass the will of the Spaniards and thus is only his fault that the referendum is illegal.
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