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[deathkiller]

To make the referendum legal, we need to change a part of the constitution that implies an Spain wide vote for the change.

 

[His Majesty]

Then Spain's constitution is at odds with the universal right to self-determination.

 

[Irminsul]

Then Spain's constitution is at odds with the universal right to self-determination.

It's actually not:

According to the Helsinki Final Act of 1975, the UN, ICJ and international law experts, there is no contradiction between the principles of self-determination and territorial integrity, with the latter taking precedence.

 

[marcbret87]

Then Spain's constitution is at odds with the universal right to self-determination.

Then so is Germany's, France's and Italy's, because they don't allow such votes either. BTW, from what I read the self-determination was created for colonies, and I think the head of the UN said a couple years ago that this does not apply to Catalonia. He did also say a solution should be found though, whatever that means.

 

[deathkiller]

Then Spain's constitution is at odds with the universal right to self-determination.

So are most constitutions, does your country constitution recognize the right to secede to every arbitrary part of it? The problem with the universal right of self-determination is that every country interpret it as it likes, most do as a "right to democracy" rather than a "right to secession". I am in favour of giving the right to secede to every region in Spain with it's own language so long that over 50% of the people of that region vote for it. Plenty of people have similar views and the constitution can be changed.

 

[His Majesty]

It's actually not:

Could you explain how that applies in the case of Catalonia? Because they seem like two opposite concepts in this case to me.

So are most constitutions, does your country constitution recognize the right to secede to every arbitrary part of it? The problem with the universal right of self-determination is that every country interpret it as it likes, most do as a "right to democracy" rather than a "right to secession". I am in favour of giving the right to secede to every region in Spain with it's own language so long that over 50% of the people of that region vote for it. Plenty of people have similar views and the constitution can be changed.

I have a similar view but I doubt Spain would willingly change its own constitution and undermine its own position in the process. When two wolves and a lamb are voting on what's for dinner, the wolves have no reason to change the law.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Shouldn't people be allowed to vote?

 

[Theonik]

But do we want them to stay at any cost?

I have always disliked how the pro-independence think that Rajoy can be used to bypass the will of the Spaniards and thus is only his fault that the referendum is illegal.

Could you explain how that applies in the case of Catalonia? Because they seem like two opposite concepts in this case to me.

They are but like I mentioned earlier in the thread, the right to self determination is not respected unless there is ulterior motive to because major powers set the rules and they aren't exactly about to just cede territory.

 

[Crow Pudding]

Shouldn't people be allowed to vote?

They say people voting is anti-democratic.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

They say people voting is anti-democratic.

They've been using for years public money to finance campaigns and organisations pro secession. Where's the democracy when tax money is used like that.

Heck, some schools have recently asked permission to ferry minors to fill up the streets...

 

[Crow Pudding]

There's a lot of people anti secesion who just want to vote too.

If they can do a legal referendum then both sides can do a campaign to defend their opinions. This way a lot of people is not even bothering.

 

[marcbret87]

Shouldn't people be allowed to vote?

They say people voting is anti-democratic.

Sorry, but this kind of argument is what a 5-year old would come up with. Democracy is not just voting whatever you want. In the small town where I live we cannot democratically decide to stop paying taxes because we think they are too high. We cannot vote to expel inmigrants just because we don't like them. There are rules and procedures, but the government in Barcelona is just ignoring all of them and claiming a right to decide which is basically a right to decide whatever the hell they want, despite having at best the support of 50% of the population.

 

[His Majesty]

Sorry, but this kind of argument is what a 5-year old would come up with. Democracy is not just voting whatever you want. In the small town where I live we cannot democratically decide to stop paying taxes because we think they are too high. We cannot vote to expel inmigrants just because we don't like them. There are rules and procedures, but the government in Barcelona is just ignoring all of them and claiming a right to decide which is basically a right to decide whatever the hell they want, despite having at best the support of 50% of the population.

Last poll I could find said 72% of Catalans was in favour of a referendum being held.

 

[marcbret87]

Last poll I could find said 72% of Catalans was in favour of a referendum being held.

Right, 50% I meant in support for independence, in fact JxSI themselves got about 40% share in the last elections. Whatever the case, the argument about voting is still pretty flawed in my opinion.

 

[Theonik]

Sorry, but this kind of argument is what a 5-year old would come up with. Democracy is not just voting whatever you want. In the small town where I live we cannot democratically decide to stop paying taxes because we think they are too high. We cannot vote to expel inmigrants just because we don't like them. There are rules and procedures, but the government in Barcelona is just ignoring all of them and claiming a right to decide which is basically a right to decide whatever the hell they want, despite having at best the support of 50% of the population.

Sure you can. Elect a government that will do those things.

 

[Lagunamov]

They've been using for years public money to finance campaigns and organisations pro secession. Where's the democracy when tax money is used like that.

Heck, some schools have recently asked permission to ferry minors to fill up the streets...

You can use the same argument for the spanish government, they have stealing for yeas public money and now they say that a referendum is not allowed because is illegal? Or because the constitution says so? Come on, they are the firsts that they dont follow the constitution...

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

You can use the same argument for the spanish government, they have stealing for yeas public money and now they say that a referendum is not allowed because is illegal? Or because the constitution says so? Come on, they are the firsts that they dont follow the constitution...

Sure, but that makes the corruption of the ruling party as bad as what the seccecionists are doing: abusing their control of public funds to benefit themselves. They're both criminals.

And surely you must understand how rigged are Spanish elections due to corruption funding campaigns for major parties and thus you should understand as well that a referendum in these conditions is rigged as well.

 

[Theonik]

Sure, but that makes the corruption of the ruling party as bad as what the seccecionists are doing: abusing their control of public funds to benefit themselves. They're both criminals.

And surely you must understand how rigged are Spanish elections due to corruption funding campaigns for major parties and thus you should understand as well that a referendum in these conditions is rigged as well.

Erm. The difference here is that secessionist parties are elected with a mandate to secede.
'Abusing public funds to benefit themselves' doesn't apply. It's literally their democratic mandate.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Erm. The difference here is that secessionist parties are elected with a mandate to secede.
'Abusing public funds to benefit themselves' doesn't apply. It's literally their democratic mandate.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they should be using public funds for what essentially is drumming up support for themselves. That's not political mandate, that's misuse of public funds.

Do you see non seccecionist city governments throwing money at the SCC (a unionist organisation)? No, as it should be. But seccecionist city governments finance the AMI (seccecionist organisation) and the Generalitat (Catalonia's regional government) finances Omnium (seccecionist organisation).

Hell, some public schools are asking permission for using money that should go to kids education to ferry them for demonstrations. That's the kind of brazen misuse of public funds that should be condemned.

 

[Theonik]

Sure, but that doesn't mean they should be using public funds for what essentially is drumming up support for themselves. That's not political mandate, that's misuse of public funds.

Do you see non seccecionist city governments throwing money at the SCC (a unionist organisation)? No, as it should be. But seccecionist city governments finance the AMI (seccecionist organisation) and the Generalitat (Catalonia's regional government) finances Omnium (seccecionist organisation).

I'll bring the example of the UK in this instance, the government was able to appropriate funds to send flyers to support their position on the EU referendum, they are government funds used by the government. Spending money is one of the primary functions of the government. Might as well complain about Madrid wasting money on trying to stop the referendum as misappropriation of public funds by that standard.

As for schools, that's the choice of their teachers how they use school funds, they could be disciplined by that note but shrug.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I'll bring the example of the UK in this instance, the government was able to appropriate funds to send flyers to support their position on the EU referendum, they are government funds used by the government. Spending money is one of the primary functions of the government. Might as well complain about Madrid wasting money on trying to stop the referendum as misappropriation of public funds by that standard.

As for schools, that's the choice of their teachers how they use school funds, they could be disciplined by that note but shrug.

So because spending money is a function of the government it means there should be no ethical nor legal limits to that spending? On the subject of the UE referendum, was the UK government spending money for years promoting those positions? Was the UK government propping up several 'leave' organisations? Was the UK government paying for transport for demonstrations? Because that's what has been happening here for years. The AMI, OMNIUM and other seccecionist organisations have been supplied with a steady flow of public money for years while that same government was underfunding healthcare, education, etc.

Also, I would like to point you that isn't "Madrid" working on restoring the rule of law, plenty of people in Catalonia who don't want the referendum to happen.

 

[Business]

Also, I would like to point you that isn't "Madrid" working on restoring the rule of law, plenty of people in Catalonia who don't want the referendum to happen.

It's worth pointing out too that it's only 25% or less according to polls. When if there's no game you win, why play. Much easier than voting NO.

 

[Valhelm]

Would Catalan independence harm the lives of everyday Spaniards in poorer provinces?

 

[Tiamant]

I've seen the pictures of the vandalized Guardia Civil cars in every Spanish news outlet for the last 2 days. However, there seems to be radio silence regarding the unionist demonstration that took place yesterday in front of the ANC HQ (2 blocks away from my home)

You can watch it here

Ah, the Constitutional values of the nazi salutation and punching people in the face.

 

[Morat]

El Pais is reporting that the Mossos D'Esquadra have been put under the control of the Ministry of Interior along with the Guardia Civil under a single command

 

[deathkiller]

I've seen the pictures of the vandalized Guardia Civil cars in every Spanish news outlet for the last 2 days. However, there seems to be radio silence regarding the unionist demonstration that took place yesterday in front of the ANC HQ (2 blocks away from my home)

You can watch it here

Ah, the Constitutional values of the nazi salutation and punching people in the face.

It was briefly mention on La 1/Canal 24h news along ANC leaving it's HQ. My reaction was "wait, they managed to pull that in Catalonia?" obviously nobody is surprised that fascists groups are against the referendum or that they exists.

I always find shameful that "La Falange" is a legal group, they killed thousands during the Civil War going town by town murdering anyone considered leftist/liberal/LGBT.

 

[Lagunamov]

I've seen the pictures of the vandalized Guardia Civil cars in every Spanish news outlet for the last 2 days. However, there seems to be radio silence regarding the unionist demonstration that took place yesterday in front of the ANC HQ (2 blocks away from my home)

You can watch it here

Ah, the Constitutional values of the nazi salutation and punching people in the face.

I just put it in twitter under the tag #catalunyanoestassola. More people should do the same.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Sorry, but this kind of argument is what a 5-year old would come up with. Democracy is not just voting whatever you want. In the small town where I live we cannot democratically decide to stop paying taxes because we think they are too high. We cannot vote to expel inmigrants just because we don't like them. There are rules and procedures, but the government in Barcelona is just ignoring all of them and claiming a right to decide which is basically a right to decide whatever the hell they want, despite having at best the support of 50% of the population.

Not convincing. A small town voting for not paying taxes is not the same than a whole region with its own language voting for independence. They should definitely be allowed to vote. And them having "at best" 50% support is even a better reason to let them vote. Ridiculous to think otherwise IMO. Not Catalan nor Spanish btw...

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Would Catalan independence harm the lives of everyday Spaniards in poorer provinces?

wouldn’t it leave less money to distribute as Catalan is a relatively richer region?

 

[trembli0s]

wouldn’t it leave less money to distribute as Catalan is a relatively richer region?

Arguably, it leaves everyone poorer.

The Spanish state loses an economic engine and the money it draws in taxation which hurts the budget and social services. This hurts everyone in Spain. The nascent Catalan state loses any EU membership and has to spend at minimum 4-5 years to legally formalize any type of trade agreement with the EU. That's not mentioning the potential multinational relocations ala Brexit either.

I don't have an issue with people voting for either side but don't sell independence as a panacea to economic problems.

 

[Onyar]

So because spending money is a function of the government it means there should be no ethical nor legal limits to that spending? On the subject of the UE referendum, was the UK government spending money for years promoting those positions? Was the UK government propping up several 'leave' organisations? Was the UK government paying for transport for demonstrations? Because that's what has been happening here for years. The AMI, OMNIUM and other seccecionist organisations have been supplied with a steady flow of public money for years while that same government was underfunding healthcare, education, etc.

Also, I would like to point you that isn't "Madrid" working on restoring the rule of law, plenty of people in Catalonia who don't want the referendum to happen.

Òmnium don't receive public money nowadays, they used to, like other entities, but not now during the last 3 years.

 

[ChainedMaster]

Then so is Germany's, France's and Italy's, because they don't allow such votes either. BTW, from what I read the self-determination was created for colonies, and I think the head of the UN said a couple years ago that this does not apply to Catalonia. He did also say a solution should be found though, whatever that means.

Self-determination was prominent post-WW1 during the large nationalist movements. Eg. plebiscites held in Schlewig-Holstein to allow it's inhabitants self-determination through choosing whether to stay with Germany or return to Denmark. Some chose to go back to Denmark.

 

[Onyar]

Arguably, it leaves everyone poorer.

The Spanish state loses an economic engine and the money it draws in taxation which hurts the budget and social services. This hurts everyone in Spain. The nascent Catalan state loses any EU membership and has to spend at minimum 4-5 years to legally formalize any type of trade agreement with the EU. That's not mentioning the potential multinational relocations ala Brexit either.

I don't have an issue with people voting for either side but don't sell independence as a panacea to economic problems.

Things can change, I mean, If Europe don't want to lose one of his economic engines the laws will change.

What for sure is a problem is Spain, lets give the example of the high velocity train that shall pass thougth Catalonia, Madrid was promoting that the train shall pass thought Aragon, because that gave too much economic prosperity to Catalonia. The luck was that the EU didn't accept it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Things can change, I mean, If Europe don't want to lose one of his economic engines the laws will change.

What for sure is a problem is Spain, lets give the example of the high velocity train that shall pass thougth Catalonia, Madrid was promoting that the train shall pass thought Aragon, because that gave too much economic prosperity to Catalonia. The luck was that the EU didn't accept it.

Europe will not change its laws to keep Catalonia in. What that does is signal to any independence movement in the EU to go ahead and do illegal votes, and the EU will welcome you. This is unworkable and might even be dangerous.

 

[Onyar]

Europe will not change its laws to keep Catalonia in. What that does is signal to any independence movement in the EU to go ahead and do illegal votes, and the EU will welcome you. This is unworkable and might even be dangerous.

Europe is all about money, they need to have Catalonia to survive, otherwise is pretty fuck up already with the Brexit and they will not survive as a powerful entity.

The illegality of the referendum is very questionable where Spain is showing to be more like a dictatorship applying the 155 undercovered without his own legal procedures. Also the human rights allow the selfdetermination.

Democracy is not that hard, just let people vote everything without fear, and put the laws accordingly the results, not the other way.

 

[Business]

I've seen the pictures of the vandalized Guardia Civil cars in every Spanish news outlet for the last 2 days. However, there seems to be radio silence regarding the unionist demonstration that took place yesterday in front of the ANC HQ (2 blocks away from my home)

You can watch it here

Ah, the Constitutional values of the nazi salutation and punching people in the face.

Violence from the independentist side is their wet dream and they will do their best to incite it and advertise it.

And of course, they will sweep under the carpet whatever these nazi cunts do.

These are recent death threats to independentist leader Anna Gabriel in Valencia.

It reads "Shoot Ana Gabriel".

I was looking at this when it was reported in El Mundo (second newspaper in Spain).

Disregarding the general tone of the comments section (that ranges from justifing the threats to sexist comments) there's also the reaction to the threats from the local leader of unionist party Ciudadanos in Catalonia, who basically says she is against the death theats but in the end "what does Anna Gabriel expect with that they are doing". Great.

 

[faberpach]

Europe is all about money, they need to have Catalonia to survive, otherwise is pretty fuck up already with the Brexit and they will not survive as a powerful entity.

The illegality of the referendum is very questionable where Spain is showing to be more like a dictatorship applying the 155 undercovered without his own legal procedures. Also the human rights allow the selfdetermination.

Democracy is not that hard, just let people vote everything without fear, and put the laws accordingly the results, not the other way.

thanks

 

[trembli0s]

Europe is all about money, they need to have Catalonia to survive, otherwise is pretty fuck up already with the Brexit and they will not survive as a powerful entity.

The illegality of the referendum is very questionable where Spain is showing to be more like a dictatorship applying the 155 undercovered without his own legal procedures. Also the human rights allow the selfdetermination.

Democracy is not that hard, just let people vote everything without fear, and put the laws accordingly the results, not the other way.

Please, Catalonia doesn't move the needle with respect to Europe. The U.K. was the 5th largest economy in the world pre-Brexit and even that didn't get the EU to budge on negotiations for access.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Europe is all about money, they need to have Catalonia to survive, otherwise is pretty fuck up already with the Brexit and they will not survive as a powerful entity.

The illegality of the referendum is very questionable where Spain is showing to be more like a dictatorship applying the 155 undercovered without his own legal procedures. Also the human rights allow the selfdetermination.

Democracy is not that hard, just let people vote everything without fear, and put the laws accordingly the results, not the other way.

Do you honestly think the EU needs Catalonia more then Catalonia needs the EU? We are talking about a region with a GDP of 255 billion or so. The EU has one of 16,1 trillion. Catalonia then represents about 1.5%.

This is the same nonsense as with Brexit. The EU has zero interest in having a region break away on favorable terms, since it would set a bad precedent that you can just do whatever you want. What kind of signal do you think this would give to other regions thinking about independence? And how do you think those countries would vote on these matters? That is not even getting into the veto Spain would have over any decision here anyway.

Yes, democracy is hard, since it is a balance between having people vote and actually having a functional state. Because just letting people vote on whatever is sadly not the smartest thing. We have seen this multiple times over the past year now. Just going: vote and we do whatever you want, is not what a functional democracy looks like.

 

[KingSnake]

Europe is all about money

I like how you hold very high principles when it comes to Catalonia, but you disrespect everything else.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Europe is all about money, they need to have Catalonia to survive, otherwise is pretty fuck up already with the Brexit and they will not survive as a powerful entity.

The illegality of the referendum is very questionable where Spain is showing to be more like a dictatorship applying the 155 undercovered without his own legal procedures. Also the human rights allow the selfdetermination.

Democracy is not that hard, just let people vote everything without fear, and put the laws accordingly the results, not the other way.

No offense, but you are completely deluded if you think this is true.

 

[Onyar]

Please, Catalonia doesn't move the needle with respect to Europe. The U.K. was the 5th largest economy in the world pre-Brexit and even that didn't get the EU to budge on negotiations for access.

Do you honestly think the EU needs Catalonia more then Catalonia needs the EU? We are talking about a region with a GDP of 255 billion or so. The EU has one of 16,1 trillion. Catalonia then represents about 1.5%.

This is the same nonsense as with Brexit. The EU has zero interest in having a region break away on favorable terms, since it would set a bad precedent that you can just do whatever you want. What kind of signal do you think this would give to other regions thinking about independence? And how do you think those countries would vote on these matters? That is not even getting into the veto Spain would have over any decision here anyway.

Yes, democracy is hard, since it is a balance between having people vote and actually having a functional state. Because just letting people vote on whatever is sadly not the smartest thing. We have seen this multiple times over the past year now. Just going: vote and we do whatever you want, is not what a functional democracy looks like.

The european union tried to show strength to the world before the Brexit but they knew they lost a lot.
With an hypothetical Catalonia leaving means one of the four economical engines are off, the main difference between Catalonia and Britain is that Britan is an enormous financial power but Catalonia is one of the four high industrialized regions.

So the exit of Britan can be replaced by Europe with just normal offices at Frankfurt for example, otherwise the industrialized Catalonia will require more time and money to Europe to build these factories if they want to.
It should be a much smart move from Europe to retain Catalonia and don't spend a lot of money to create an alternative industrialized zone.

I like how you hold very high principles when it comes to Catalonia, but you disrespect everything else.

I'm not agree, I don't like the current European Union made by countries to make money, I want a United Europe made by people to make the same Europe a better place to live, more social.

 

[Valhelm]

Arguably, it leaves everyone poorer.

The Spanish state loses an economic engine and the money it draws in taxation which hurts the budget and social services. This hurts everyone in Spain. The nascent Catalan state loses any EU membership and has to spend at minimum 4-5 years to legally formalize any type of trade agreement with the EU. That's not mentioning the potential multinational relocations ala Brexit either.

I don't have an issue with people voting for either side but don't sell independence as a panacea to economic problems.

What would be the repercussions of an immediate Catalan EU bid?

That was discussed during the Scottish independence referendum if I remember correctly

 

[tirant]

The european union tried to show strength to the world before the Brexit but they knew they lost a lot.
With an hypothetical Catalonia leaving means one of the four economical engines are off, the main difference between Catalonia and Britain is that Britan is an enormous financial power but Catalonia is one of the four high industrialized regions.

So the exit of Britan can be replaced by Europe with just normal offices at Frankfurt for example, otherwise the industrialized Catalonia will require more time and money to Europe to build these factories if they want to.
It should be a much smart move from Europe to retain Catalonia and don't spend a lot of money to create an alternative ....

Are you really comparing U.K. and Catalonia ? (facepalm)

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Spanish fascism/franquismo is well alive and thriving:

https://twitter.com/LekaconK/status/911311461955379200

https://twitter.com/xapo_/status/911303269565308928

https://twitter.com/324cat/status/911326929739010048

 

[Onyar]

Are you really comparing U.K. and Catalonia ? (facepalm)

Yes, and I'm saying that even UK is a much bigger economy, for Europe it's more important Catalonia because the industrial structure.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The thing is, we aren't more important than UK, but we are key in Spain, Catalonia will have to undergo a huge crisis for years if we go independence? Yeah, but Spain as well, with a debt of already 100%+ of the GDP, Spain will fall into his worst recesion ever, shaking the grounds of the UE, basically a several times worse Greece crisis.

 

[Business]

Onyar won't be the President of this new country, that's as much as I can tell you. But I can hug him.

 

[hans_castorp]

Spanish fascism/franquismo is well alive and thriving:

https://twitter.com/LekaconK/status/911311461955379200

https://twitter.com/xapo_/status/911303269565308928

https://twitter.com/324cat/status/911326929739010048

Thats not franquismo. Thats a bunch of stupid people, going full fascism.

Franquismo is having your father sent to prison for a couple of days because he dared to write a letter criticising the mayor, franquismo is getting raid for going to a Labordeta concert, franquismo is going to university and getting to know those really nice guys called "Los grises".
Do you really think modern Spain has a fascist or authoritarian regime?

Rajoy is a moron, and this is not the way to solve this mess. But like it or not this Referendum was illegal. People commit sedition, embezzlement, refuse to obey the Supreme Court and then they get surprised when they get arrested.
They way the Referendum law was passed by the Parlament was fucking embarrassing.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Thats not franquismo. Thats a bunch of stupid people, going full fascism.

Franquismo == fascism

So those are "franquistas"

Do you really think modern Spain has a fascist or authoritarian regime?

No, of course not, neither is Trump a fascist *wink* *wink*