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[tirant]

The facts is that the major nationalistic movement in Catalonia was lead by a racist person, if you think that a man that governed the region for twenty fucking years doesn't represent the way of thinking of their voters you may also well believe that most nazis that voted for Hitler weren't antisemitic.

Also, there are other racist statements by the actual president of Catalonia or Carme Forcadell, the Catalonian Parliament president, you can say that they don't represent what most nationalist catalans think, and I believe that many aren't racist, but a lot of them are, as shown by their leaders

Nationalism is a fucking cancer that has killed millions and is in their way of causing a civil war, or in the best case, the total economic misery of both Spain and specially Catalonia, so well done.

It's been already some years that the independentist movement in Catalonia has gone beyond nationalism and has become a transversal movement: even people supporting Spanish national team and wearing the national shirt are now supporting independence. It's not a matter of feeling Spanish or not, it's a matter of political decency and getting away from corrupt Spanish institutions controlled by PP/PSOE, parties that are still being voted by the rest of Spain.

Last election results, where blue is PP:

 

[barber]

I still think the first four years of Aznar were the best of our democracy, but then it went downhill in 2000 when they achieved majority.

I mean, that things went to shit when he achieved majority pretty much seals the deal on him being a great president, and then with Iraq and the 11m... yeaaaash

 

[trembli0s]

He knows Catalunya is lost and now wants to cement his power everywhere else. It's a lose-lose situation for the people as he fell right into the independentists' trap for his own political gain.

This thing could've been handled 5-10 years ago, now it's unstoppable.

The funny thing is Spain hitting the shitter will crater the EU much faster than anything else. Macron better button the hatches down.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

Yup, there's nothing the current government can do to keep Cataluña as a part of Spain, which saddens me since I'm very proud of Barcelona being an iconic place of my country.

It's a city I love, where I have many friends. Have many fond memories of it.

 

[Dragner]

Aznar made great on the economy part but most was thanks to the brutal expansion caused by 'Ley suelo' that made construction centric our economy. That hit us hard when the crysis came, we had lots of people from construction with 0 education or studies grossing the unemployment offices. It was good at his time, but it came back to bite us later (zapatero lack of awareness didnt help either).

 

[afroguy10]

Well, read me again, tired of repeating myself, although knowing that you're an Scotish who voted for independence...

You're saying you have genuine verifiable articles that show that a majority of Catalonian pro independence politicians and indy supporters are all rich, xenophobic and hate anyone Spanish who isn't Catalonian, I'd really love to see them.

I'll ignore the second part of your post though, we're not going to get anywhere exploring that scathing attack, are we?

 

[Kain]

Aznar best president? Heck no, his first term might have been somewhat good but then

- He was the one planting the seeds for the huge crisis that came later, that is, transforming Spain into a Services country

- His second term was utter shit

In our 40 years of democracy we have gotten shit president after shit president tbh. Suárez was okish but he was also trapped in the middle of the Transition, you can't do much there unless you're taking ALL the risks. González is a fucking traitor, Aznar a fascist, ZP I don't even know what he is and Rajoy is one of the biggest morons in the world. I'm sure he and Trump are best pals.

It's been already some years that the independentist movement in Catalonia has gone beyond nationalism and has become a transversal movement: even people supporting Spanish national team and wearing the national shirt are now supporting independence. It's not a matter of feeling Spanish or not, it's a matter of political decency and getting away from corrupt Spanish institutions controlled by PP/PSOE, parties that are still being voted by the rest of Spain.

Yeah, he will say that it's a racism movement still.

 

[ecosse_011172]

There possibly is just as there's probably quotes of English politicians doing the same to Scots, there's ignorant arseholes on each side and no of course we're not, we're a wealthy country but miles behind the output of England but I don't know what the wealth of the region has to do with my reply to you considering it had nothing to do with the post I quoted of yours. If I'd wanted to discuss the economic output of Catalonia I would have mentioned it or quoted a more relevant post.

My ire was mostly directed towards you tarring an entire secessionist movement and the supporters of said movement of being rich xenophobes who hate all Spaniards, which is pish poor patter and I don't see you backing it up with any sources, probably because you know it's pure shite.

Scotland is financially ahead of everywhere in the UK except the SE of England which is miles ahead of everywhere.

 

[trembli0s]

You're saying you have genuine verifiable articles that show that a majority of Catalonian pro independence politicians and indy supporters are all rich, xenophobic and hate anyone Spanish who isn't Catalonian, I'd really love to see them.

I'll ignore the second part of your post though, we're not going to get anywhere exploring that scathing attack, are we?

To be fair to him, the whole movement to "keep our money" is repulsively akin to white flight and middle class privilege. Fuck poor people, at its most basic, is the message.

 

[Tempus fugit]

...did you miss something? Catalonia literally isn't allowed to vote on it by Spain.

Sooo, every region in Spain is a colony???

So every French department is a colony? and every German Länder??

They can vote in the national affairs the, are represented in the Spanish Parliament and also have a high degree of autonomy as a region.

Pathetic.

 

[afroguy10]

Scotland is financially ahead of everywhere in the UK except the SE of England which is miles ahead of everywhere.

I know, I tend to stay away from breaking it down further, you open yourself up to people going "Yeah, well Central Scotland props up the much less financially prosperous North and South of Scotland. When is Central Scotland going to go independent." which is complete crap because then where do you stop, city and town states, but you end up having to waste time debating the position.

 

[Dragner]

Make note that spain is also on the rise of the alt-right movement that is hitting europe lately. It doesnt appear a lot on the news because its PP that is an old party, but PP was always alt-right but they always covered themselve as pure centric liberals and it worked on most people.

 

[Tempus fugit]

You're saying you have genuine verifiable articles that show that a majority of Catalonian pro independence politicians and indy supporters are all rich, xenophobic and hate anyone Spanish who isn't Catalonian, I'd really love to see them.

I'll ignore the second part of your post though, we're not going to get anywhere exploring that scathing attack, are we?

Can you quote me saying that??

 

[barber]

It's been already some years that the independentist movement in Catalonia has gone beyond nationalism and has become a transversal movement: even people supporting Spanish national team and wearing the national shirt are now supporting independence. It's not a matter of feeling Spanish or not, it's a matter of political decency and getting away from corrupt Spanish institutions controlled by PP/PSOE, parties that are still being voted by the rest of Spain.

Last election results, where blue is PP:

eeeh, i would say that the problem in that case is that there was only was real right party while there was two main "left" parties, so of course the pp got the most votes even in regions where the leftist had more power.

 

[MUnited83]

Sooo, every region in Spain is a colony???

So every French department is a colony? and every German Länder??

They can vote in the national affairs the, are represented in the Spanish Parliament and also have a high degree of autonomy as a region.

Pathetic.

I'd say pathetic is being the kind of person that looks at people peacefully wanting to vote, then looks at state-sponsored violence where the police is savagely beating down unresisting civilians, and has the motherfucking nerve of calling the former the fascists.

 

[Javier23]

eeeh, i would say that the problem in that case is that there was only was real right party while there was two main "left" parties, so of course the pp got the most votes even in regions where the leftist had more power.

According to one of those two main leftist parties there's three right wing parties.

Make note that spain is also on the rise of the alt-right movement that is hitting europe lately. It doesnt appear a lot on the news because its PP that is an old party, but PP was always alt-right but they always covered themselve as pure centric liberals and it worked on most people.

PP is alt-right now? Weren't they supposed to be neoliberals? Doesn't the alt-right hate neoliberals? Wait, no, they are fascists right? And francoists too, weren't they? Who don't really stand neoliberals that well. Man, this is confusing.

PP are moderate, Christian democratic conservatives. They're right wing, and not quite full blown libertarians except for some well known political characters in certain regions. I don't understand the need to make shit up in a thread were most people are not well versed on our local politics.

 

[Patrick S.]

I like this Ciudadanos guy.

 

[mavo]

Well, now that it seems they went with the referendum, will they still pursue the whole "declaring independence"?

Will be interesting to see if it happens, will Puigdemont go to jail? I honestly don't think so because that would be stupid since they will basically transform him into a martyr.

 

[afroguy10]

Can you quote me saying that??

Sure, what part though, the part where it sounds like you suggested a previous post of yours had sources discussing the idea that Catalonias secessionist movement is built upon the idea that they hate any Spaniard that isn't Catalonian. Much like a far right group would hate foreigners.

Well, read me again, tired of repeating myself

Or the part where you gave up completely and decided to suggest I'm a moron for supporting Scottish independence.

although knowing that you're an Scotish who voted for independence...

 

[SplitYourInfinities]

People saying that this independence movement is about "defending their identity" because they feel "detached" from the rest of the country are simply delusional. Well, maybe that's their reason (and to a certain extent it makes sense considering how bad this situation was managed during the past years by the central government), but for sure it's not the one that Mas, Puigdemont and the rest of the political class have in mind. For them, It's all about money, you are just being misled.

That's not what needs to be discussed today tho.

BTW, rallies all around Spain to support the right to vote and to condemn the violence. I guess not all Spaniards are fascists after all

EDIT: https://twitter.com/15MBcn_int/status/914555577447206912

 

[Cappa]

I like this Ciudadanos guy.

they arent much better than PP unfortunately....

Anyway in my opinion I think the vote is a joke and I think if there really needs to be a referendum it should be for EVERYONE in Spain not just Catalunya... either way whats going on in Catalunya right now is absolutely disgusting.

The referendum is illegal, so whatever the result would be illegal, whats the necessity to use excessive force? Just let these people fucking vote and then invalidate the result. Showing this excessive force is just empowering the independent Catalan movement even further and in a way this is exactly what Puigdemont and his minions wanted to happen.

 

[Tempus fugit]

I'd say pathetic is being the kind of person that looks at people peacefully wanting to vote, then looks at state-sponsored violence where the police is savagely beating down unresisting civilians, and has the motherfucking nerve of calling the former the fascists.

Yeah so you basically recognize that comparing this to the US independence is pathetic, as I deduce by your lack of contra-argumentation about the thing we where discussing.

Ok.

 

[Koren]

- second the central goverment covers themselves on spanish constitution that is old as hell (most living spanish didnt vote it)...a constitution that punish people for trying to...vote? On a democracy?...wth. there should be a rule that allows referendums, let the people vote ffs.

I doubt there's a lot of countries that allow a part of the country to decide by themselves on a vote, even more when the vote is on a subject that affect everyone in the country but only a subset of people vote.

I don't have an opinion on the matter and I don't like police apparently handled it, but I'm not convinced democracy warrant such a vote either.

I'd be curious to reread threads on Crimea referendum...

 

[psychowave]

I like this Ciudadanos guy.

Albert Rivera? He's a joke and the most spineless politician this country has seen. His party are just a bunch of PP cheerleaders.

 

[Beefy]

The EU are disgusting

 

[shiyrley]

After all the shit I've seen today, people defending beatings, people chanting crap about a fucking dictator that doesn't deserve any kind of respect, etc, me avergüenzo de ser español.

Let me be canadian or something.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Sure, what part though, the part where it sounds like you suggested a previous post of yours had sources discussing the idea that Catalonias secessionist movement is built upon the idea that they hate any Spaniard that isn't Catalonian. Much like a far right group would hate foreigners.



Or the part where you gave up completely and decided to suggest I'm a moron for supporting Scottish independence.

The part where I say what you say that I said.

"You're saying you have genuine verifiable articles that show that a majority of Catalonian pro independence politicians and indy supporters are all rich, xenophobic and hate anyone Spanish who isn't Catalonian" This, basically.

 

[Cappa]

I found this to be funny... going around my whatsapp groups lol

 

[Javier23]

they arent much better than PP unfortunately....

Translation: they are right-wing (libertarian centrists actually) and thus hate worthy too. Say what you will, but they don't have the shameful track record that the PP has in certain areas.

Albert Rivera? He's a joke and the most spineless politician this country has seen. His party are just a bunch of PP cheerleaders.

Which is why they tried to help the socialdemocrats form a government after the last elections. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Audioboxer]

There has to have been a better way to handle of this over all the time it's taken to culminate in me just reading a headline saying

Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032

That's just unacceptable. I say that as a Scot who voted for Scottish independence in a country that managed to have a vote, but voted no. I don't know enough about Catalonia overall and won't pretend to, I know my ignorance here, but it's just not acceptable seeing those casualty numbers.

 

[forknknife]

After what the Spanish government has done today against its own citizens I never want to hear them fucking talk about Venezuela ever again.

Haha! Now that's a good one!

Not only that, when Catalonia get their referendum and they become independent you will also hear how the fault for all this is from Podemos. Seriously, reading the comments on right wing newspaper Facebook posts is so disheartening, there's no way this is getting any better.

 

[MUnited83]

Yeah so you basically recognize that comparing this to the US independence is pathetic, as I deduce by your lack of contra-argumentation about the thing we where discussing.

Ok.

Not at all. In fact, Catalonia has more right to indepence than the US. US Indepence was achieved by white settlers pissed off with taxes.
If anything, Catalonia, with the hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, has a even more valid claim to independence. Or at least, to VOTE PEACEFULLY FOR IT

 

[afroguy10]

The part where I say what you say that I said.

"You're saying you have genuine verifiable articles that show that a majority of Catalonian pro independence politicians and indy supporters are all rich, xenophobic and hate anyone Spanish who isn't Catalonian" This, basically.

Right, so, do you have articles suggesting that, as a previous post of yours stated, the Catalonian independence movement is based on blood and soil nationalism and just like far right groups that hate Islam and non white foreigners they hate all non-Catalonian Spaniards and are xenophobic.

I don't want one or two politicians showing their colours, or a handful of supporters causing bother. You can bet that there are a few SNP politicians who probably do hate the English or don't want to rejoin the EU if Scotland ever gains independence, but this is completely different to the SNP's official position as a party. If you're gonna back up your statement from earlier I want sources that show me that the party's views are xenophobic and racist to non-Catalonian Spaniards and therefore anyone that supports them supports these views which makes them a dick.

You get me that and I'll apologise and move on, not an issue at all since I'm not the one that resorted to name calling.

 

[mario_O]

Translation: they are right-wing (libertarian centrists actually) and thus hate worthy too. Say what you will, but they don't have the shameful track record that the PP has in certain areas.

Actually they do. They are as fake as it gets. First, they went to the european parlament together with a far-right, anti european, catholic party. Then, they transformed their party to a left-center socialdemocratic party. And now they call themselves libertarians. It's a joke. These people would say anything to get a vote. They're just there as a result of the growth of Podemos. With the support of the spanish oligarchy.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Make note that spain is also on the rise of the alt-right movement that is hitting europe lately. It doesnt appear a lot on the news because its PP that is an old party, but PP was always alt-right but they always covered themselve as pure centric liberals and it worked on most people.

I don't know much about Spanish politics but are there any chances a leftist movement like Podemos could become the strongest party in the parliament? Syriza in Greece was a ~5% party ten years ago and now they govern the country.

Now that Schäuble is gone I hope the parties here in Germany agree on a finance minister that wants to work with Macron so the EU can renew itself.

Europe was on a good track at the beginning of the 21th century but after the global financial crisis in 2008 countries drifted apart. Perhaps the Euro was a mistake. France feared that Germany could become too dominant after the reunification but that wasn't the case until the introduction of the Euro. Countries with their own currency like the Czech Republic are profiting from a prospering Germany but for countries like Greece the Euro is the wrong currency because it is unrealistic that they can compete with Germany in terms of productivity and efficiency.

 

[tirant]

Not at all. In fact, Catalonia has more right to indepence than the US. US Indepence was achieved by white settlers pissed off with taxes.
If anything, Catalonia, with the hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, has a even more valid claim to independence. Or at least, to VOTE PEACEFULLY FOR IT

Right for indepence means shit.

Catalan people have the right to be heard and be treated correctly by their government. That's democracy. If they are not, they will need to find a different government, which is what is happening now.

 

[Tempus fugit]

Right, so, do you have articles suggesting that, as a previous post of yours stated, the Catalonian independence movement is based on blood and soil nationalism and just like far right groups that hate Islam and non white foreigners they hate all non-Catalonian Spaniards and are xenophobic.

I don't want one or two politicians showing their colours, or a handful of supporters causing bother. You can bet that there are a few SNP politicians who probably do hate the English or don't want to rejoin the EU if Scotland ever gains independence, but this is completely different to the SNP's official position as a party. If you're gonna back up your statement from earlier I want sources that show me that the party's views are xenophobic and racist to non-Catalonian Spaniards and therefore anyone that supports them supports these views which makes them a dick.

You get me that and I'll apologise and move on, not an issue at all since I'm not the one that resorted to name calling.

Well I quoted the Catalonian president that governed during 20 years and the nowadays president, if you want me to look for declarations of every politician involved in all this mess for you can take your apologies (lol)

I dont need to quote every nazi to show that they were antisemitic, I think that their elected leader, Hitler, is enough, or every FN politician etc.

 

[psychowave]

Albiol blaming Catalonian politicians for the police violence because "if they hadn't convinced people to vote this wouldn't have happened". This is some outright victim blaming shit, and from a guy who compared the ballot boxes they used to "the box my wife uses to store our dirty clothes", no less. I don't think I could possibly hate anyone more than I hate PP right now.

 

[Business]

Albiol blaming Catalonian politicians for the police violence because "if they hadn't convinced people to vote this wouldn't have happened". This is some outright victim blaming shit, and from a guy who compared the ballot boxes they used to "the box my wife uses to store our dirty clothes", no less. I don't think I could possibly hate anyone more than I hate PP right now.

“Look what you made me do”

 

[Tempus fugit]

Not at all. In fact, Catalonia has more right to indepence than the US. US Indepence was achieved by white settlers pissed off with taxes.
If anything, Catalonia, with the hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, has a even more valid claim to independence. Or at least, to VOTE PEACEFULLY FOR IT

oh my god

I can't even.

Please, try to read something about the things you are speaking about, last time I checked, catalans were white settlers pissed of by taxes to support poorer Spanish regions.

Enough for today, jesus, you made my day.

 

[Ac30]

So, according to the Reddit live thread, First results suggest 93.9% to 4.6% for independence with no numbers for participation. I'm guessing all the no voters stayed home.

 

[Metroxed]

I like this Ciudadanos guy.

He is a young Rajoy. Rajoy lite, if you will.

He has no spine at all. He let the PP make a fool out of himself.

 

[Oriel]

Right, so, do you have articles suggesting that, as a previous post of yours stated, the Catalonian independence movement is based on blood and soil nationalism and just like far right groups that hate Islam and non white foreigners they hate all non-Catalonian Spaniards and are xenophobic.

I don't want one or two politicians showing their colours, or a handful of supporters causing bother. You can bet that there are a few SNP politicians who probably do hate the English or don't want to rejoin the EU if Scotland ever gains independence, but this is completely different to the SNP's official position as a party. If you're gonna back up your statement from earlier I want sources that show me that the party's views are xenophobic and racist to non-Catalonian Spaniards and therefore anyone that supports them supports these views which makes them a dick.

You get me that and I'll apologise and move on, not an issue at all since I'm not the one that resorted to name calling.

Fucking hell!

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The EU are disgusting

Say what?

 

[MUnited83]

oh my god

I can't even.

Please, try to read something about the things you are speaking about, last time I checked, catalans were white settlers pissed of by taxes to support poorer Spanish regions.

Enough for today, jesus, you made my day.

Catalonians of today are white settlers? That's a interesting claim, to say the least.

 

[MistakenMobius]

flemish far right wing militant are demonstrating in front of Spanish embassy in support of Catalonia

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Not at all. In fact, Catalonia has more right to indepence than the US. US Indepence was achieved by white settlers pissed off with taxes.
If anything, Catalonia, with the hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, has a even more valid claim to independence. Or at least, to VOTE PEACEFULLY FOR IT

No taxation without representation. They opposed a regime imposing their will on them without allowing them any say.

Your grasp of US history is simplistic to say the least.

flemish far right wing militant are demonstrating in front of Spanish embassy in support of Catalonia

I don't trust any far right organisations in these kind of matters. If anything I assume their support is entirely to try and destabilise the EU.

 

[Ac30]

I don't trust any far right organisations in these kind of matters. If anything I assume their support is entirely to try and destabilise the EU.

The N-VA aren't anti-EU, just pro-independence for Flanders, and they know Catalan independence looks good for their cause. Also they aren't shit compared to Vlaams Belang (I'm shocked they're not getting in on the action)

 

[Javier23]

So, according to the Reddit live thread, First results suggest 93.9% to 4.6% for independence with no numbers for participation. I'm guessing all the no voters stayed home.

I mean, yeah, that was obvious from the beginning. The more interesting part will be comparing the number of "Yes" votes against the number of people in the Catalonian electoral census. Even then, obviously results aren't exactly gonna be all that reliable.

 

[erlim]

The facts is that the major nationalistic movement in Catalonia was lead by a racist person, if you think that a man that governed the region for twenty fucking years doesn't represent the way of thinking of their voters you may also well believe that most nazis that voted for Hitler weren't antisemitic.

Also, there are other racist statements by the actual president of Catalonia or Carme Forcadell, the Catalonian Parliament president, you can say that they don't represent what most nationalist catalans think, and I believe that many aren't racist, but a lot of them are, as shown by their leaders

Nationalism is a fucking cancer that has killed millions and is in their way of causing a civil war, or in the best case, the total economic misery of both Spain and specially Catalonia, so well done.

Anecdotal, but I am an Asian American and I am in a long distance relationship with a Catalan/Spanish girl and I've been completely embraced by her family and friends. I mean to feel comfortable eating dinner with her parents when I don't speak Catalan or Spanish says something.

Now, I don't have nearly enough information on the political parties and structure to really unbiasedly comment on the referendum, but I do know far and wide through many many weddings, parties, and film festivals---I don't see them as racist.

I'm flying to Barcelona tonight.