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[Elaugaufein]

In a nutshell: The Watchmen characters are not fucking symbols. They do not represent anything beyond themselves and their role in the story in which they originally appeared, and any attempt to ignore or change that is never going to be able to escape the gravity of the original work.



Also: yes, Doctor Manhattan is certainly a morally compromised character at the end of Watchmen. Every character is, including the one who refused to compromise and paid for it with his life.

That doesn't mean that reducing Manhattan, or the story as a whole, to "despair, apathy, and disbelief" is anything but an extremely shallow, surface-level reading of Watchmen. In fact, its ending still manages to be considerably more hopeful than many of the dark and violent superhero comics that Johns himself has written, including this week's Justice League #50.

I disagree with you about symbols. Because their meaning is almost always ascribed rather than inherent it's easy for things to become symbols of what they caused or became associated with (like the Swastika). Even if that was never the intent. That doesn't always replace the original meaning though, symbols can have multiple meanings after all.

I wouldn't say Justice League 50 is bleak. It features a new Green Lantern being created because of the bravery of their sacrifice and a chance for redemption for Darkseid.

 

[Goldrush]

. Lion King is completely differnt type of movie, one wiith talking animals. Watchmen is superhero comics. Not tonally any different from a lot of what DC has done in the past.

Instead it would more like Doctor Strange traveling two centuries into the past and stumbling into the castle with Beauty and the Beast. And that would be just fine.

Heck. I'm reading Invicible now and just went through crossover issue with SpiderMan..and it was decent.

Talking about Doctor Strange, I guess this isn't as weird as Kull/Conan being part of the Marvel universe.

 

[Renpatsu]

I picked it up because I needed to know what the fuss was about, so I guess if this was just another marketing stunt it got me.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I picked it up because I needed to know what the fuss was about, so I guess if this was just another marketing stunt it got me.

Doesn't seem like it. At least not with significant premeditation. Theres a lot of awkward wrapups of various titles to reposition them for this. That's significant extra art and writing on a fairly tight schedule. I'd be surprised if this had much over 6 months lead.

 

[Afrodium]

Ok everyone, that Lion King post was stupid. ...I was tired

All in all I actually really liked Rebirth. As I said I think adding Manhattan to the DCU could work out if they keep his presence super minimal (just let him be a guy who just hangs out on Mars and resets the universe from time to time and never interacts with anyone), but now that he's officially in this universe you just KNOW that at some point, whether this year or in a decade, he's going to be in some big ol' punchy superhero battle for the fate of the universe.

 

[shingi70]

One point I noticed is when Wally remembers everything about his past he sees the pre flashpoint universe where all his history happened. When Barry finally remembers who Wally is he has memories of him within context of the new 52 universe.

So Wally red bees meeting Barry when he was younger, while Wally was a bit older to Barry.
Wally remembers the classic Titans while Barry remembers them in new 52 designs.

So Doctor Manhattan didn't just screw with the universe but took time as well. I wonder how that's going to reconcile with Nu Wally and Donna Troy.

 

[jph139]

I'd love if Doc is sort of... like, if he views the DC Universe as fictional. "I mean, sorry I fucked with your lives, but you know you guys aren't real, right? Just thought it'd be interesting to change things up a bit. Didn't work out, I'll back off."

I think he's a sensible stand-in for editorial if they approach from that angle. Guy just wants to make things interesting.

 

[LordRaptor]

My question now is what the fuck is

Spoiler

Batman gonna do with the button? Is it now gonna become a staple of his batcave? Is he gonna pin it to the dinosaur or tape it to the big penny?

So many questions guys....

He'll put it in his sci-fi closet along with the dalek

 

[otakukidd]

One point I noticed is when Wally remembers everything about his past he sees the pre flashpoint universe where all his history happened. When Barry finally remembers who Wally is he has memories of him within context of the new 52 universe.

So Wally red bees meeting Barry when he was younger, while Wally was a bit older to Barry.
Wally remembers the classic Titans while Barry remembers them in new 52 designs.

So Doctor Manhattan didn't just screw with the universe but took time as well. I wonder how that's going to reconcile with Nu Wally and Donna Troy.

I don't think it actually means anything for nu wally. Hes technically his cousin. He even mentioned that nu wally was in the old universe just never talked about or shown and they were both named after their grandfather or great grandfather.

I am kinda curious about why wally and Barry remember different things though. I'm guessing that he was originally apart of new 52 but eventually remembered the previous universe and dr Manhattan erased him from the universe. That or speed force shenanigans.

 

[CaptainofIndustry]

Just gonna throw out that I think Jason Fabok is a great artist. Reading through Darkseid War right now and the art is beautiful.

 

[NumberTwo]

Just gonna throw out that I think Jason Fabok is a great artist. Reading through Darkseid War right now and the art is beautiful.

I was literally thinking the same thing to myself last night as I was reading the latest issue. Definitely one of my favorites. I love they way he draws GL and Batman.

 

[Busty]

I actually got a code to download this from Comixology from none other than Gotham's very own Ben McKenzie on Twitter yesterday.

It'll be the first comic I've read in years.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

How much of his work have you read? Flex Mentallo, Seven Soldiers, Multiversity? The meta-messages that you seem to deny exist there aren't even remotely subtle. I'd say Batman is definitely more cynical than most of his DCU fare, but even there Bruce's "death" comes going toe-to-toe with *the* ultimate evil, and then he's brought back to reality by the power of family and friendship ("The first truth of Batman... I was never alone.")

I'm not saying that he never pokes fun at overly dark comics, but its far from one of the main themes in his work. As Morrison even says in the Final Crisis interviews, he's more interested in how the anxieties and insecurities of society are reflected in comics than in the comic's tone. Look at the SuperDoom character from his Action comics run. The point wasn't that grim anti-heroes are bad, its that people are attracted to them because of their own alienation and that's what needs to be overcome. Focusing on the tone of comics misses his concerns with the culture they spring from.

 

[TheFlow]

I am actually enjoying this deep discussion I never read anything from DC pre New52(I am still familiar with the stories though) so it is cool to read thoughts from some of the long time readers

 

[Father_Brain]

I wouldn't say Justice League 50 is bleak. It features a new Green Lantern being created because of the bravery of their sacrifice and a chance for redemption for Darkseid.

Yes, I'm sure that's the focus of dwelling on baby Darkseid's evil red glowing eyes. To set him up for redemption.

It also features two women, one of whom just gave birth, being violently disintegrated and two longtime DC characters being murdered on the last page, but hey, Hopeful Comix.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Newsarama has a big interview up with Dan Abnett where he talks about how

Spoiler

OG Wally

is going to interacting with the Titans Hunt team. They also drop the news that Abnett is now DC exclusive:

http://www.newsarama.com/29477-wally-west-led-titans-to-unlock-the-mystery-of-rebirth.html

 

[NeonZ]

I don't think it actually means anything for nu wally. Hes technically his cousin. He even mentioned that nu wally was in the old universe just never talked about or shown and they were both named after their grandfather or great grandfather.

I am kinda curious about why wally and Barry remember different things though. I'm guessing that he was originally apart of new 52 but eventually remembered the previous universe and dr Manhattan erased him from the universe. That or speed force shenanigans.

I think it was just the universe's way of fitting him in once Barry acknowledged him. Wally even mentions that there's still a lot Barry can't remember. The Teen Titans had been forgotten, but not the members themselves, aside from Wally, so I don't think the Teen Titans Hunt explanation fits there.

 

[Ashby]

So there was never a Teen Titans in the New 52? I didn't realize the whole team existence was a victim of the reboot.

 

[TheFlow]

So there was never a Teen Titans in the New 52? I didn't realize the whole team existence was a victim of the reboot.

I think people in the new 52 can't remember the original teen titans tbh.

The original teen titans fought a villain named trickster that ended up wiping some of their memories as well. It is still kinda confusing because I didn't read all of Titan hunt.

Star fire for example remembers bits of her fling/relationship with dick Grayson

 

[LordRaptor]

Abnett is now DC exclusive

Oh man, DnA Legion hopes rising...

 

[tim1138]

Oh man, DnA Legion hopes rising...

Don't get too excited, they no longer work together.

 

[RepairmanJack]

Yes, I'm sure that's the focus of dwelling on baby Darkseid's evil red glowing eyes. To set him up for redemption.

It also features two women, one of whom just gave birth, being violently disintegrated and two longtime DC characters being murdered on the last page, but hey, Hopeful Comix.

I figured all the deaths were just getting rid of the left over syndicate members. They were mostly forgotten before this and brought in for their purpose and there's no need to keep them around for more confusion.

 

[ZeroX03]

Newsarama has a big interview up with Dan Abnett where he talks about how

Spoiler

OG Wally

is going to interacting with the Titans Hunt team. They also drop the news that Abnett is now DC exclusive:

http://www.newsarama.com/29477-wally-west-led-titans-to-unlock-the-mystery-of-rebirth.html

Gotta read Titans Hunt.

Still lots of questions regarding the OG remaining, will be fun to see how it plays out.

 

[RepairmanJack]

You're really not missing much with Titans Hunt. It was set up like it'd lead to more but it basically was just more allusion to Doc through a villain that needed to be remembered to have power so they all whipped their memory to make him powerpess? But that was even more confusing because no one else remembers the teen titans either...

I caught up because of the talks about it leading in to Rebirth but it's more just set up for Titans that just happened to be related to rebirth.

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

So there was never a Teen Titans in the New 52? I didn't realize the whole team existence was a victim of the reboot.

There was reference to an original team of Teen Titans in early issues of Red Hood and the Outlaws and I believe the Teen Titans said they might be "the shortest lasting incarnation of the Teen Titans" once, then they edited it out of the trades (as well as Tim Drake's references to being Robin before Red Robin)

 

[Squire]

Oh man, DnA Legion hopes rising...

Don't get too excited, they no longer work together.

And Legion better be Hickman.

 

[TheFlow]

If Saturn girl is in the present then I wouldn't be surprised if brainiac comes to get her

 

[LordRaptor]

And Legion better be Hickman.

Hickman can have LOSH, DnA - or I would be equally happy with Abnett & Giffen - can have L.E.G.I.O.N

 

[GeeTeeCee]

Both of my local comic book stores were sold out of Rebirth. I've been trying - and mostly failing - to avoid spoilers so far, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out...

 

[shiftplusone]

since love is now allowed can babs get her dick back

phrasing

 

[LFG]

totally new to comics. picked this up yesterday.. few quesitions to those who have been following longer...

Spoiler

is watchmen in the same universe or did dr manhattan manifest in this universe.. or is he manipulating things outside the universe from another or what?

also, who is

Spoiler

jackson..the kid who's gay..i think??

one more, lol

Spoiler

three jokers? do they know of each other?

 

[gamz]

Both of my local comic book stores were sold out of Rebirth. I've been trying - and mostly failing - to avoid spoilers so far, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out...

I only have one comic store in my area and I was wondering why I saw so many cars in the parking lot last night. That place is never busy. I guess this is why.

 

[Poodlestrike]

totally new to comics. picked this up yesterday.. few quesitions to those who have been following longer...

Spoiler

is watchmen in the same universe or did dr manhattan manifest in this universe.. or is he manipulating things outside the universe from another or what?

also, who is

Spoiler

jackson..the kid who's gay..i think??

one more, lol

Spoiler

three jokers? do they know of each other?

In order:

Nobody knows for sure

That's Pre-New52 Aqualad (based loosely on the one from Young Justice)

Nobody knows.

 

[CloudyTuba]

In regards to the

Spoiler

button....you can see it fly out of the Speedforce when Wally appears in the Batcave, if I'm not mistaken. You see something hit the wall with a *ding*

Thanks. That answers that question.
You can see the relevant panels here.

Spoiler

The embedding (TNK!) and the retrieval.

Spoiler

"Reality from across existence spills out."

 

[LFG]

In order:

Nobody knows for sure

That's Pre-New52 Aqualad (based loosely on the one from Young Justice)

Nobody knows.

Thanks for the answers

 

[Khaz]

Haven't read DC in a while, and I had a lot of trouble understanding the Flashes story, with all the time travel and alternate universe stuff... I didn't enjoy it.

 

[Lashley]

Dan Abnett has signed an exclusive deal with DC

 

[Doctor Bat]

I'm looking forward to picking up

Batman Rebirth #1
Superman Rebirth #1
Justice League Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Superman #1
Justice League #1

But does anyone know which series are going to be most integral this year following on from DC Rebirth #1?

I'm interested in the Superman reveal in DCR#1 but can't tell whether it'll be most integral to Action or Superman, for example.

 

[TheFlow]

Is Roy Harper supposed to be a hot head and angsty. Watching young justice for the first time and he acts just like the live action arsenal

 

[Poodlestrike]

I'm looking forward to picking up

Batman Rebirth #1
Superman Rebirth #1
Justice League Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Superman #1
Justice League #1

But does anyone know which series are going to be most integral this year following on from DC Rebirth #1?

I'm interested in the Superman reveal in DCR#1 but can't tell whether it'll be most integral to Action or Superman, for example.

Not really any way to know until you pick up the books, tbh. Titans seems like it's gonna be pretty important going off the solicits, but that could be a headfake. Who knows?

 

[Elaugaufein]

I'm looking forward to picking up

Batman Rebirth #1
Superman Rebirth #1
Justice League Rebirth #1
Batman #1
Superman #1
Justice League #1

But does anyone know which series are going to be most integral this year following on from DC Rebirth #1?

I'm interested in the Superman reveal in DCR#1 but can't tell whether it'll be most integral to Action or Superman, for example.

Things significant to the metaplot will probably either be miniseries or labelled crossover issues (or often both).

I'd guess Superman will follow this thread since it's the one getting a Rebirth lead in issue.

Its pretty unlikely you'll miss any big events if you're reading Batman, Superman and Justice League DC tends to try to sell their current metaplot everywhere vaguely relevant and those are some of their biggest sellers.

Is Roy Harper supposed to be a hot head and angsty. Watching young justice for the first time and he acts just like the live action arsenal

Hot headed ? Almost always. Angsty ? Depends on where you are in his timeline, DC likes indicating trauma on him.

 

[Maple-Tech]

Is Hickman actually confirmed for DC, or is it just wishful thinking?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Is Hickman actually confirmed for DC, or is it just wishful thinking?

Hickman has said so on his Twitter but people think it may have been a joke. Doesn't appear to be a statement from DC or any book announced with him yet but we haven't seen all the Rebirth titles yet (theres almost definitely a JSA and LoSH book and more books are getting cancelled than new ones announced so there's probably more coming yet). So no definite answer.

 

[C-Drive]

Hickman on LOSH is all I want.

 

[TheFlow]

Things significant to the metaplot will probably either be miniseries or labelled crossover issues (or often both).

I'd guess Superman will follow this thread since it's the one getting a Rebirth lead in issue.

Its pretty unlikely you'll miss any big events if you're reading Batman, Superman and Justice League DC tends to try to sell their current metaplot everywhere vaguely relevant and those are some of their biggest sellers.



Hot headed ? Almost always. Angsty ? Depends on where you are in his timeline, DC likes indicating trauma on him.

Ah gotcha

 

[Effect]

I hope the writing on Green Arrow is good. I'll be adding that to the list to check out now that I'm official done with the show. Still not sure on Birds of Prey. I feel like if i read that I might as well add Batgirl to the list and the list is already pretty long as it is. Plan on checking out pretty much all the Rebirth #1s. From there is the issue.

Has anyone broken down how much it would cost each month to get all the titles with the reduced price and with some titles shipping monthly?

 

[LordOfLore]

Have Marvel said anything about Abnett's books with them?

 

[Squire]

Anyone else going to read Green Lanterns? I know Humphries is typically pretty bad, but I liked his Secret Wars tie-in a lot. GL could be very similar with the character dynamic set-up.

 

[Sandfox]

Have Marvel said anything about Abnett's books with them?

Both of his books sold terribly so he's probably done.

 

[tim1138]

Anyone else going to read Green Lanterns? I know Humphries is typically pretty bad, but I liked his Secret Wars tie-in a lot. GL could be very similar with the character dynamic set-up.

I am. I refuse to believe that it can be worse than the garbage Robert Venditti has been writing in the main book for the past three years.