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[Zvonimir Boban]

What I'm seeing in this thread is "Democrats can't move right to try to pick up white moderates!" And I'm like... how do you get the white vote without moving right?

I wish we lived in a society where a real left-wing party could get elected. A party dedicated to police reform, equality across racial, gender and class lines, supply-side economics, single payer, the works.

But I don't think that such a party can get elected. And I'd rather have a watered-down Democrat party that can actually win seats than an ideologically correct Democrat party that can't.

When the Dems win -> Republicans move further right as a response

Obama won -> They lost their shit and almost went off the fucking graph and got a racist moron endorsed by nazis and the KKK elected as president.

Republicans win -> Dems should move to the right as a response?

Sounds like a solid plan that will have no repercussions for minorities.

 

[Ponn]

Ah, rereading it I get what you mean now. Yeah, it's like I said, there's a large group of populist Dems who are trying to make everything about them despite not even showing up and voting consistently

Yup, totally agree.

It's not an issue of not supporting them, it's an issue of doing it in a way that doesn't wake the sleeping latent racism/white supremacy. It's rough.

This is literally taking what they are saying and completely ignoring it. Who are you to tell them they don't have an issue when they are literally saying they do? Why are Dems so dead set on ignoring the very large base, for a group that is flaky as hell and doesn't even believe in the liberal platform? There is no latent racism, it's been there, it shows up every single time the undecided and moderates go to vote. How many losses do the Dems need to finally realize they don't give a shit about the dem platform and never will? They are not the foundation you build the party around.

 

[CrocMother]

When the Dems win -> Republicans move further right as a response

Obama won -> They lost their shit and almost went off the fucking graph and got a racist moron endorsed by nazis and the KKK elected as president.

Republicans win -> Dems should move to the right as a response?

Sounds like a solid plan that will have no repercussions for minorities.

It's a lot more complicated than a sliding scale of left->right.

The Bush Neo-Cons aren't like Trump. Trump is protectionist and anti-globalist. These haven't been trademarks of the Republican Party until after Obama.

Everyone is trying to figure out what happened, what is happening, to America. We're a very confused country.

 

[kirblar]

This is literally taking what they are saying and completely ignoring it. Who are you to tell them they don't have an issue when they are literally saying they do? Why are Dems so dead set on ignoring the very large base, for a group that is flaky as hell and doesn't even believe in the liberal platform? There is no latent racism, it's been there, it shows up every single time the undecided and moderates go to vote. How many losses do the Dems need to finally realize they don't give a shit about the dem platform and never will? They are not the foundation you build the party around.

Because in these white as hell midwestern/rust belt states, the Dems don't have an alternative.

source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/06/30/diversity-in-americas-counties-in-5-maps/

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would argue that many people felt he same way. There was a whole lot of "Fall in line!" Being tossed around. And I'm sorry, but Hillary did a horrible job of earning votes, especially from the Bernie base.

Thread is about black women and you immediately default to complaining about the poor maligned Bernie base... classic.

 

[Cyframe]

What I don't really understand is how courting voters on both social and economic justice pits different interests groups against one another.

There is a small donor group of individuals that leverage the media to play up this divide. After all, the progressive wing of the democratic party is more socially and economically progressive than their left-leaning centrist counterparts by definition. This conflating the vast majority of Bernie supporters with "moderates" is utter tripe. It is literally the opposite of true for registered democrats supporting Sanders by and large.

There is a contingency of independents and other moderates that support Sanders, but they are a tiny group relative to his progressive supporters. This is easily evidenced by the fact that a larger percentage of Bernie supporters voted Clinton during this recent general election than did Clinton supporters in past general elections voting for Obama.

Reaganomics, (well it started before that but let's start with that) and the creation of the welfare queen stereotype. You have white people who believe that Black people using EBT is what's breaking our economy and driving the US into debt.

Obamacare, and effort to make healthcare more affordable was met with such revulsion that you had people voting for Trump while using Obamacare that saved their lives. There is a severe issue of racism that prevents people from choosing the best path forward because Black people will also use those services. There are still birthers who believe that Obama wasn't born here, our current President included.

Gay marriage, that one woman who refused to do her job and was made a martyr. I really could go on, but there's a huge demo that would rather cut themselves and jump into shark-infested water than to share a community pool with minorities. Dems need to stop courting that demographic and work on bolstering voting rights and protecting them so Black women and other minorities can vote.

 

[jtb]

When the Dems win -> Republicans move further right as a response

Obama won -> They lost their shit and almost went off the fucking graph and got a racist moron endorsed by nazis and the KKK elected as president.

Republicans win -> Dems should move to the right as a response?

Sounds like a solid plan that will have no repercussions for minorities.

Not untrue, though parties naturally drift further from the center after wave elections. After all, where did Democrats pick up Senate and House seats in 2008's big wave? From moderate Republicans, of course. Similarly, all the Blue Dogs and Southern Dems lost their seats over the Obama years because they were the most vulnerable to begin with. So it's part of the problem inherent within our party structure.

 

[ahoyhoy]

And a two party type system ensures democrats have no fear of losing a good enough proportion of the..

 

[Shaanyboi]

A rousing defense of democracy.

A rousing celebration of the shit two-party system America has cemented into itself with few signs of ever evolving.

 

[Kelsdesu]

A rousing celebration of the shit two-party system America has cemented into itself with few signs of ever evolving.

Which is why many have stated that a non vote for one is a vote for the other.

 

[The Technomancer]

What I don't really understand is how courting voters on both social and economic justice pits different interests groups against one another.

There is a small donor group of individuals that leverage the media to play up this divide. After all, the progressive wing of the democratic party is more socially and economically progressive than their left-leaning centrist counterparts by definition. This conflating the vast majority of Bernie supporters with "moderates" is utter tripe. It is literally the opposite of true for registered democrats supporting Sanders by and large.

There is a contingency of independents and other moderates that support Sanders, but they are a tiny group relative to his progressive supporters. This is easily evidenced by the fact that a larger percentage of Bernie supporters voted Clinton during this recent general election than did Clinton supporters in past general elections voting for Obama.

There's a large swathe of white America that fervently believes any material gains minorities make are at their own expense. These people see economic and racial issues as being opposed, and while they don't represent a majority of the country they're enough of it that they have significant political power, even among the left.
Kirblar posted this great piece earlier: https://agenda-blog.com/2017/07/03/...beralism-and-the-white-working-class/#more-42

Its not just that white people started voting for republicans post-civil-rights, its that even among the white people who still voted for democrats the primary process started selecting more centrist, less progressive candidates. A lot of white America lost interest in economically progressive rhetoric when it became tied to civil rights and gains for minorities

 

[Angelus Errare]

Is the country really that conservative? Right now, Bernie is the most popular active politician and he's constantly described as being socialist. I have diehard conservative friends who said that they would have voted for Bernie.

We're easily the most conservative first world country in the world. We don't even have maternity leave as a standard...the only other countries that we share that honor with are Liberia, Papua New Guinea, and Suriname as an example.

Racism even now is the core component of America's conservatism.

Or alternative, read up on America's initial reaction to social welfare programs when black people were allowed to partake in them wholesale, then see America's reaction when the government restricted some professions from receiving said welfare...those professions just so coincidentally happened to be dominated by black workers.

 

[Cybit]

Isn't this bit really important to highlight before making any generalized claims?

Shhh...let everyone get their outrage and punditry in before they realize that this poll is complete and utter fucking bullshit. If the election was any indication, we're all really bad at understanding how polls work and what they mean (What's up Trash Nate!). I don't think folks get this is a poll that is already going to produce a predicted answer, regardless of the actual feelings of the group involved.

It was probably a really bad idea for Clinton to run in 2008 as the WWC candidate, then try to use the Obama coalition in 2016 without actually being Obama. Both parties always have a balancing act of trying to keep everyone in their coalition happy and engaged by pushing policy that is important to them. The Dems, having a broader coalition, will struggle with this more. Add in the modern hyper-catering and hyper-specificity that exists in systems, and holding coalitions becomes much harder. Hell, the GOP barely exists as a functional governing party because they couldn't balance their coalition correctly. (but they do win a fuckton of elections)

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

This sounds like an awful idea. I don't see how this could possibly be better than getting the party to align better with minorities, specifically black women

Its wishful thinking. I would want a Black helmed Left party with any sincere allies and leftists getting on board. There are too many reasons why that won't happen anytime soon. The Democrats better stop taking this loyal base for granted. There are still too many institutional abuses going on in some Democrat localities.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I mean plenty of black posters from around the country are speaking on how women they know feel the same but no, condescension is the smart play

 

[Calcaneus]

Why can't black women voice their concerns with the party's direction without people trying to dismiss them or scare them into silence by bringing up Republicans? Why is that always the first democrat response to criticism?

The most reliable base is saying the party is losing them, Democrats really have no choice but to listen.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Why can't black women voice their concerns with the party's direction without people trying to dismiss them or scare them into silence by bringing up Republicans? Why is that always the first democrat response to criticism?

The most reliable base is saying the party is losing them, Democrats really have no choice but to listen.

The same reason people think "Black Lives Matter" means "Other Lives Don't Matter"

 

[Ekai]

They sit out the election most likely. They don't need to fall in line when no one is doing a damn thing for them.

Trump was only half wrong with his "What do you have to lose?" BS. He was right that democrats ain't doing shit for the black community. He was wrong in that he is actively making things worse.

Honestly you can apply that to a lot of minorities. Yes, one side is better than the actively antagonistic alternative. But the better side does barely anything for us.

 

[Gattsu25]

Well, as Trump (and the New Deal coalition) proved: just be racist.

To the disdain of all the "we need to move away from identity politics" people: you can't out-racist the republicans. Those voters are locked in on the right.

 

[Shauni]

Its wishful thinking. I would want a Black helmed Left party with any sincere allies and leftists getting on board. There are too many reasons why that won't happen anytime soon. The Democrats better stop taking this loyal base for granted. There are still too many institutional abuses going on in some Democrat localities.

Then totally split the vote on the left and give the country to the GOP probably with enough power to totally rewrite the Constitution. Nice dream that quickly becomes a nightmare when you put any realistic thought into it.

 

[Shauni]

"You're either with us or against us!"



See?

I mean, it's a harsh reality, but it's a reality none the less. Maybe there will come a time when the nation shifts to a minority-majority population there will be a way for a viable third party to arise, but as it stands now there are two options. It's hard to swallow I know, and it sucks. I wish the system was better, too, but there's no path there for the immediate future

 

[Messofanego]

Dems are weaksauce. They already lost white women to Trump. Too much bad history with Clinton. Bernie went up his own butt. Got to find someone younger and more in touch with the real world.

 

[Shauni]

Dems are weaksauce. They already lost white women to Trump. Too much bad history with Clinton. Bernie went up his own butt. Got to find someone younger and more in touch with the real world.

"Lost?" They never had the majority of white women

 

[royalan]

"Lost?" They never had the majority of white women

And maybe you should focus on that instead of chastising black women who have put in the work.

 

[MHWilliams]

I think you are reading a few things wrong. The Bernie "contingent" they are looking for are not the young urban socialist dems. They are the rural populist whites that Hillary under-performed with, and there is a very very real possibility that those voters were pushed to Trump because of Hillary's positions on BLM, criminal justice reform and police brutality.

I think more troubling is what can Dems do when large planks of their progressive messages when it comes to minority rights (inclusive of immigrant rights, muslim rights, etc) is simply unpopular with a large chunk of the old "Obama coalition". I hope I'm wrong on this, and I want Dems to stay on the right side of history, but it is possible that the mid-west is going to be more challenging to win much sooner than we anticipated.

These posts sum up a major part of the problem.

To point to a specific concept, the "moderate" who feels BLM blocking a road is a real problem? They're missing the point of protest, but their vote still matters.

The assumption is that going hard on more progressive issues will cause a groundswell in folks who don't normally vote, like young people. I certainly think Democrats should try it at least once.

But I'm generally on the mindset that more folks think they're nice upstanding moderate people, who nonetheless oppose prison and police reform, among other topics. And those folks don't stop existing. And I'm reasonably others know this as well, because you have to go to work with them.

 

[Valhelm]

Good. Every voting bloc should do this, in fact.

Ideally the Democrats will be forced to push past this false divide between social and economic justice and go HAM on everything.

It's the only way they can survive

 

[Shauni]

And maybe you should focus on that instead of chastising black women who have put in the work.

I'm not chastising anyone, I 100% agree that black voters need to be a primary focus for the party, which I said earlier, so save kneejeeking for someone else. There's no 'working on it's anyway. The majority of white voters are never returning to the Democratic party no matter what

 

[D i Z]

Then the GOP will most definitely take over and everyone will be in trouble.

The problem here is that if the Dems keep bleeding voters, then the GOP will take over (there is no other alternative), and when the GOP takes over, everyone suffers.

Everyone. Black, brown, LGBTQ+, middle class, working class, red states, blue states.

The choice we have is to vote blue or to sit out let red win. It's like, head's I win, tails you lose. We just can't create a three headed dice right now because it'd be weighted and land on the GOP every roll.

Here's the thing. For us, red has always won.
Even during Emancipation, red (as we know it now) won. Even when we had Obama, red still won.
They suffocated everything, or shut it down when they lost. It doesn't matter until it matters for everyone else.
This isn't about us, or the voting block that the dems won't recognize.
This is about white identity. But we'll go ahead with tarnishing our Black women for shit that white people did.
And until they figure that out, we're always subject to this push & pull, never ending never moving fear mongering and anti intellectual, anti international hole diving nonsense.

In the meantime, we have children to raise and protect and educate (because they aren't going to fund our schools anymore). So wagons need to be circled and real allies need real support.
There isn't any time on our clocks left for this. We know all of the signs of it all going sideways again and again and again.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Why can't black women voice their concerns with the party's direction without people trying to dismiss them or scare them into silence by bringing up Republicans? Why is that always the first democrat response to criticism?

The most reliable base is saying the party is losing them, Democrats really have no choice but to listen.

2 reasons:

1) They're black

2) They're women

(It's absolutely shortsighted, because as whites shrink as a percentage, so too do the votes idiot centrists are trying to round up from people who don't support what the Democratic party does. It's a long-term losing battle, but then no one ever said racism and sexism was rational or strategic.)

 

[Guess Who]

Then the GOP will most definitely take over and everyone will be in trouble.

The problem here is that if the Dems keep bleeding voters, then the GOP will take over (there is no other alternative), and when the GOP takes over, everyone suffers.

Everyone. Black, brown, LGBTQ+, middle class, working class, red states, blue states.

The choice we have is to vote blue or to sit out let red win. It's like, head's I win, tails you lose. We just can't create a three headed dice right now because it'd be weighted and land on the GOP every roll.

The GOP has taken over. It's already happened. We're living it. If the Democratic Party wants that to change, they need to figure out a platform that actually attracts and inspires voters back to them, not one whose defining quality is "we might suck in a hundred ways, but at least we aren't the GOP." If the Dem leadership wants unity - and they need it badly - they are going to have to earn it, not just expect everyone to crawl to them to save them from the GOP.

 

[Elandyll]

The Dems just need to be able to multi task, as the progressive party.

Is it really too much to ask to have platforms for lower and middle economic classes, education, retirement & healthcare for all, minorities (racial, religious & lgbt), unions, women's rights, environment, etc?

Literally, the common thread is to lift everybody regardless of age, race, gender or socio-economic status to a better place in life wih as little struggle as possible through government action and arbitration, while being as pro business as possible in that environment (this is still America, obviously).

Again literally, the Dem's slogan could just be inspired right off the Declaration of independance: For the People. All the people.

 

[Shauni]

The GOP has taken over. It's already happened. We're living it. If the Democratic Party wants that to change, they need to figure out a platform that actually attracts and inspires voters back to them, not one whose defining quality is "we might suck in a hundred ways, but at least we aren't the GOP." If the Dem leadership wants unity - and they need it badly - they are going to have to earn it, not just expect everyone to crawl to them to save them from the GOP.

Lol, the GOP hasn't truly taken over yet. This is nothing compared to what would happen if they truly take over.

 

[Keri]

I hope this works and gets the attention of the party.

 

[D i Z]

I hope this works and gets the attention of the party.

Bottom line, it's a better push than anybody else has had at this point. Everyone should be supporting them, not trying to undercut them because nobody else is doing shit for change, and we all know it.

 

[Guess Who]

Lol, the GOP hasn't truly taken over yet. This is nothing compared to what would happen if they truly take over.

The GOP have the executive branch, both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court, and most state legislatures, all while continuing to enact voter suppression laws and gerrymander their states as the Dem leadership fails to do almost anything of value to show they can stop it.

 

[Chumly]

The Dems just need to be able to multi task, as the progressive party.

Is it really too much to ask to have platforms for lower and middle economic classes, education, retirement & healthcare for all, minorities (racial, religious & lgbt), unions, women's rights, environment, etc?

Literally, the common thread is to lift everybody regardless of age, race, gender or socio-economic status to a better place in life wih as little struggle as possible through government action and arbitration, while being as pro business as possible in that environment (this is still America, obviously).

Again literally, the Dem's slogan could just be inspired right off the Declaration of independance: For the People. All the people.

Let's be honest. It's hard to focus on a hundred important issues. Your always going to have people bitching that their issues aren't being focused on. It's literally impossible to give enough airtime to all of those issues to make people happy.


Dems have a problem that democrats are far more likely to become apathetic if they don't feel their issues are focused on. Republicans plug the noses and fall in line. I think some kind of "for all people" campaign is good but we need to convince people that plugging their noses is also good sometime.

 

[Secret Fawful]

I get it. But we also have a broken 2 party system. Want more Trump, ladies?

I'm constantly amazed when people try this little threat. Everyone is going to get fucked if that happens, but at least black women will have enough self-respect to not vote against their own interests. The better question is if Dems want more Trump.

 

[NastyBook]

I get it. But we also have a broken 2 party system. Want more Trump, ladies?

You clearly don't. This is what Dems fucking GET for taking their base for granted so many years without reciprocating in any significant way.

Killer Mike already said it, we're so close to the bottom we know what the dirt looks, smells, and tastes like. So us not voting really changes what for blacks, exactly? So either they need to figure how to do right by black women (and black folks in general), or they can start learning to hold their own fucking nuts.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Military surplus sales from the federal government are back on. I mean, it's not like the situation was sunshine and roses under the Obama admin, but there was a slow steady chipping away and it seemed like a Clinton admin would continue the work towards criminal justice reform being a front and center issue.

It's just really unsettling how little attention these issues are even getting any longer. Trump has done LOTS of fucked up shit in his first 9 months, but these issues seem to be getting the least amount of press, and I think it's because lots of Dems are afraid of how BLM is polling, which is some spineless bullshit. I think lots of Ds may think (without saying) that Hillary pushing so hard with the Mother's of the Movement and BLM support may have helped push white voters towards Trump's race bating, and so they are just not going to highlight these issues and talk about economic anxiety more.

Police spending is a catch-22 for me. On the one hand the time tested way of reducing crime is just putting more cops on the street, period. But on the other hand, police departments are incentivized by basic human instinct to invest money not in more units but in better equipment. If you want to demilitarize police you have to cut spending, but then police will just focus more of their money on adding more armament to the fewer cops they have because they're already acclimated to a certain level of security.

 

[Shauni]

The GOP have the executive branch, both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court, and most state legislatures, all while continuing to enact voter suppression laws and gerrymander their states as the Dem leadership fails to do almost anything of value to show they can stop it.

They are plagued with in-fighting and lack the power to amend and rewrite the Constitution. They still have to worry about elections and voters as well as following the judical branch.

 

[D i Z]

Killer Mike

Argument lost. That shit is automatic.

 

[kirblar]

The GOP have the executive branch, both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court, and most state legislatures, all while continuing to enact voter suppression laws and gerrymander their states as the Dem leadership fails to do almost anything of value to show they can stop it.

Been there, Done that in 2000/02/04.

This isn't as bad in a lot of ways because of the incompetence and is worse in others.

 

[D i Z]

Been there, Done that in 2000/02/04.

This isn't as bad in a lot of ways because of the incompetence and is worse in others.

With Nazi Alt-right bullshit in the gov't and all over the place and on the rise, the good old days of attempted lynching and racial murders on the rise being back again... I respectfully ask according to who?

 

[thefro]

The Dems just need to be able to multi task, as the progressive party.

Is it really too much to ask to have platforms for lower and middle economic classes, education, retirement & healthcare for all, minorities (racial, religious & lgbt), unions, women's rights, environment, etc?

Literally, the common thread is to lift everybody regardless of age, race, gender or socio-economic status to a better place in life wih as little struggle as possible through government action and arbitration, while being as pro business as possible in that environment (this is still America, obviously).

Again literally, the Dem's slogan could just be inspired right off the Declaration of independance: For the People. All the people.

That's not going to break through with how shitty the media is and all Trump's distractions until there's Presidential candidates running in the Dem primary.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

eight years?

 

[mo60]

With Nazi Alt-right bullshit in the gov't and all over the place and on the rise, the good old days of attempted lynching and racial murders on the rise being back again... I respectfully ask according to who?

This republican administration is definitely worse than the republican administration under Bush but this republican administration is pretty incompetent compared to the republican administration in the Bush days.

 

[D i Z]

This republican administration is definitely worse than the republican administration under Bush but this republican administration is pretty incompetent compared to the republican administration in the Bush days.

Can we get a quote from the victims so far?

 

[besada]

The Democratic party needs to pay more attention to its minority members, who form a large part of the base. Democratic minority members need to accept that they can't win without white voters, too, which means sometimes focusing on areas that aren't significant for minority voters.

It doesn't have to be an either or. It cant be an either or. The numbers alone dictate that the Democratic party has to keep white voters, who may care about race issues but not prioritize them, in the party.

Everyone in the party needs to take a step back, look at what they're doing, and ask if it's going to lead to re-election for Democratic candidates. And that includes remembering that Democrats can't win without black and hispanic voters, too.

We either work together in coalition, or we all lose.

 

[kirblar]

With Nazi Alt-right bullshit in the gov't and all over the place and on the rise, the good old days of attempted lynching and racial murders on the rise being back again... I respectfully ask according to who?

Iraq is a really, really hard humanitarian disaster to top.

 

[Makonero]

The Democratic party needs to pay more attention to its minority members, who form a large part of the base. Democratic minority members need to accept that they can't win without white voters, too, which means sometimes focusing on areas that aren't significant for minority voters.

It doesn't have to be an either or. It cant be an either or. The numbers alone dictate that the Democratic party has to keep white voters, who may care about race issues but not prioritize them, in the party.

Everyone in the party needs to take a step back, look at what they're doing, and ask if it's going to lead to re-election for Democratic candidates. And that includes remembering that Democrats can't win without black and hispanic voters, too.

We either work together in coalition, or we all lose.

That pretty much sums it up. Democrats have to find a way to thread this particular needle and soon. The easiest way is with a charismatic candidate like Obama who can unify the base and reach out to those outside of it. The question is: who will that be?