Eolz
Member
Sorry I put you in with the other quote, but do you honestly believe that if devs/pubs can get away with checkerboard 4K, they will care about optimizing proper 4K support?
DF: 4K gaming: what can PC learn from PlayStation Pro?
- Thread starter Caayn
- Start date
Sorry I put you in with the other quote, but do you honestly believe that if devs/pubs can get away with checkerboard 4K, they will care about optimizing proper 4K support?
Btw I'll mention that if a PC enthusiast like Richard says good CBR is difficult to distinguish from native then you can take his word for it.
In stills CBR would be almost completely identical to native resolution even when inspected up close, only moving things like cloth and vehicles would reveal that it's CBR and even then it can be mitigated to a good degree with a good CBR implementation. All of this is only during up close inspection, while actually playing at a distance it should look indistinguishable from native. There's a reason this technique exists and is popular, it wouldn't be if it wasn't good at doing what it's suppose to do to improve IQ.
In stills CBR would be almost completely identical to native resolution even when inspected up close, only moving things like cloth and vehicles would reveal that it's CBR and even then it can be mitigated to a good degree with a good CBR implementation. All of this is only during up close inspection, while actually playing at a distance it should look indistinguishable from native. There's a reason this technique exists and is popular, it wouldn't be if it wasn't good at doing what it's suppose to do to improve IQ.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Oh, I have no doubt 4K screen will be the future,I just think its more likely a person will upgrade his GPU before 4k screen than the other way round.
Can't foresee Dell or anyone selling a pre-build PC that can't handle 4K with a 4K monitor.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I really think they need to push checkerboard rendering to all GPUs. Nvidia and AMD need to bake it into the hardware. The final image is damn crisp, especially with decently high resolutions, and the performance savings is worth it.
It would be amazing in VR to keep the performance requirements.
It's not like resolutions are going to stop at 4k.
It would be amazing in VR to keep the performance requirements.
It's not like resolutions are going to stop at 4k.
I can say that, in my case, the TV is not taken into account in the Steam hardware survey - only my 1440p monitor. How accurate is the survey in this regard?
I think it makes sense to implement such features now while the 4K push is happening. Vendors are pushing for higher resolutions even if the general public hasn't caught up.
Selfishly, I do want these features since I fall into that rate category of playing on a 4K display with a graphics card not really capable of native 4K in most new games.
Idk it'll be nice to have the option in every game but I don't feel like its really important. Personally I've noticed something not clear about the temporal filtering settings in Rainbow Six Siege and Watch Dogs 2 and was only happy with those settings turned off. Maybe it's because I sit close to my TV but I personally don't wish for more of that.
Turin Turambar
Member
Arbitrary resolutions are not the same as dynamic resolutions.
Snobbery in a PC tech thread? Madness
Mr. Phellps
Member
It depends entirely on the dev team. We've always had devs that simply port their console games to PC, and devs that go the extra mile in optimizing their games for PC, adding all sorts of graphical settings and features. This isn't different.
Also, who's to say checkerboarding would be an easy way out? It's very common that devs just throw a bunch of high-end settings into the game, never really optimizing it. Minimum specs too high? Lol, upgrade your rig. Because that's the thing with PCs, your software might run better on future hardware (see Crysis).
Checkerboarding would simply be a good option for those who can't run native 4k, and having more options is always good.
Ehhh, do better.
You seem more worried about the potential of developer laziness/comfort because of these added options as opposed to a better experience for the majority of the players on a variety of systems/GPUs. As a gamer, I don't give a fuck about developer optimization focus when all I need to do is have the final product speak for itself.
nephilimdj
Member
Rise of the Tomb Raider is proof a game can be a benchmark in proper 4k and checkboard 4k
I mean while I think articles like this are important for getting the word out, Nvidia and AMD are hardly unaware of the coming 4k storm. Right now, Nvidia wants to push 1080ti sales so theyre probably not going to do it atm. When their next xx50ti goes on sale and 4k adoption is ~40% or so I can see them pushing it out so they can stick a 4k ready sticker on the box and marketing material. AMD obviously has a more vested interest in uh, such rendering techniques considering their current abandonment of the high end, but again 4k adoption is so miniscule atm that they probably deem it not worth supporting yet.
Checkerboard style rendering will most likely come to pc. Just give it a bit of time.
shotgunbob04
Member
I didn't buy my 1060 to play at 30fps lmao
We'll have real 4K and 60fps on PC in the next 3 years. I'd rather play at 1080p 60 Ultra settings or 1440p 60 with some settings dropped than to play my PC with checkerboard rendering.
We'll have real 4K and 60fps on PC in the next 3 years. I'd rather play at 1080p 60 Ultra settings or 1440p 60 with some settings dropped than to play my PC with checkerboard rendering.
4k is not the end-all of resolution either. Plenty of games have awful IQ at 4k. Even if someone has 4k capable GPU they can still benefit from running games at checkerboard 5k, 8k, etc.
If this is true than I hope PS5 would target "fake 4K" instead of a real one, it would be a shame to burn so much resources for something that is really not that noticeable, we have enough technical advancement to do other than more pixels that you can hardly notice.
Problem is that we all know Sony and MS won't do that, they need that "true 4K" line next to the console's name, no matter how meaningless it is :/
family_guy
Member
We have these things called TVs.
Yeah, Im all for doing renderpasses in different resolution, checkerboarding etc. Gamers cant tell anyway, and saves shitloads of performance. I mean sure, if purstists want to have less technically advanced games/or bruteforce with multiple highend cards on account of "PURE 4k PIXELS" then go ahead.
What most people dont realise is that almost no modern games render everyrthing at a native resolution. Its not as simple as that.
What most people dont realise is that almost no modern games render everyrthing at a native resolution. Its not as simple as that.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I think Sony is trying to bake checkerboard rendering into the PS4 pro, to let it really punch above it's weight.
Now if Microsoft is intelligent, they'll do the same with the Scorpio, and use the extra headroom for frame rate or additional effects. Native 4k rendering would be a huge mistake, and would give very little discernable edge over the PS4 pro.
franklyshankly
Member
I would love checkerboarding andnres scaling to become an option in all pc games personally.
It just goes to show how out of sync Microsoft marketing is with Microsoft engineering. The idea they'd promote this "true 4K" idea was so incredibly stupid to begin with that now we have this camp of people who have bought into the marketing and think anything that's not actual 4K is complete trash. And now that they're trying to back off from that it's too late. Ugh.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
lol
I think you could also see these new rendering techniques in next gen as well.
"True 4K" PR is great until your native 4K game gets outshined graphically by the competitor's checkerboard rendered game with much better bells & whistles.
Then we'll see how far that "true 4K" PR will carry weight.
Edit:
By far the dumbest move they could make was tout it as a native 4K machine with the highest quality pixels ahahah. Got this feeling it'll bite them in the ass in a major way once the dust settles in a couple of years.
Isn't this more on the developer side of things than the tech side of things? Do our modern cards and such not support checkerboard rendering and such? On which side does the "problem" lie?
Also, this has always been the real factor IMO...
We are WAY too hung up on the "ULTRA MAX EVERYTHING" shit.
Additionally, I'm not too convinced that PC gaming on TVs is as common as some make it out to be in this thread. It happens obviously, but common? I need some receipts.
That said, I'm never against more options.
Also, this has always been the real factor IMO...
We are WAY too hung up on the "ULTRA MAX EVERYTHING" shit.
Additionally, I'm not too convinced that PC gaming on TVs is as common as some make it out to be in this thread. It happens obviously, but common? I need some receipts.
That said, I'm never against more options.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I actually glomped onto the "fake camp" when Guerilla games worked some Voodoo into the multi player for Killzone Shadows fall. I thought it was a brilliant move to increase the framerate, but it received some pretty heavy criticism when it was finally discovered lol.
Sony's been pretty technical with resource efficiency lately.
Edit: I game on TV with my PC.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
As I'm currently still playing Horizon on the Pro on my 4K TV, I can definitely say that checkerboarding gives fantastic results. The IQ is excellent and if we didn't already know it was 2160c, it would be very hard to tell that it wasn't native 4k.
I'd like to see more of this on PC games, because as my GTX 1070 gets older, I can squeeze some extra out of it then, before having to finally upgrade and on a less selfish level, people with lower end PC's will be able to get more from their games without upgrading.
I'd like to see more of this on PC games, because as my GTX 1070 gets older, I can squeeze some extra out of it then, before having to finally upgrade and on a less selfish level, people with lower end PC's will be able to get more from their games without upgrading.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
That doesn't really change the point imo.
lukeskymac
Member
How? It's cheaper to get a 4K screen than a GPU capable of 4K gaming, and **GASP!** 4K is useful for things other than gaming.
Checkerboard can be implemented in different ways. 4Pro has HW that makes life easier. PC APIs also have limitations currently that make it less than optimal even compared to the 2013 consoles. Either way, it nominally requires developer support with ingrained knowledge of the game's rendering pipeline so things don't break given the number of render passes & buffers involved in modern engines.
My thought exactly, though by then you will see the PS5 pop up that will likely be able to do so too. That said, we can already have full 4K with most games, it's only a matter of money you want to invest...
Yautja_Warrior
Member
People don't need a 4k screen though, they can still benefit with downsampling, resulting in better IQ even on 1080p screens.
Its not true 4k thus it is fake at least technically.
But obviously if the rig cant do native 4k then checkerboard is better then not 4kish
ISee
Member
And it's probably never coming. Otherwise many people would skip an entire upgrade cycle.
I have a 4K TV, I only have a Radeon R9 290x with little prospect for upgrading for a little while. A little bit of PS4 Pro style cheating won't get any complaints from me.
Christberg
Member
Yeah, more options are never a bad thing. Even with a 1080ti there are some games you can't hit native 4K60 on, and having some upscaling options would be mighty nice. We're still years from 4K being boutique stuff gaming hardware wise.
CrAzY FiNgErS
Member
Yes, but the card venders could make it easier on every dev to have it baked into every GPU.
I do agree that many PC gamers get hung up on the Ultra Max craze. Thankfully, I am not one of them.
I built my itx PC in 2013 with a 4770k ,GTX 780 and with 16 gigs of RAM. I have been rocking this PC under my entertainment center on my 1080p Panny Plasma since then. Just last year I sold off my GTX 780 and got a GTX 1060 while adding a Crucial SSD.
PC gaming is so much fun on the TV for me. I don't feel like I am making a compromise playing that way. I would actually be pretty bummed if I was forced to game on a desktop/monitor setup.
I really love this article though and appreciate the info on how to get close to 4K settings on a mid-range setup. Hopefully with the advent of Pro and Scorpio it will cause the GPU venders and game devs to implement some of these options in the near future to take advantage of newer 4K TV sets.
I was thinking about upgrading to a 4k set in the next year or so before another GPU upgrade so some of these techniques would prove useful to me.
Yes, which gets me. I literally thought the point of gaming on PC is to have options. Vastly more options in control methods, software choices and performance levels than you could ever have on any dedicated console.
If they're not overly cumbersome to implement on PC versions, there's really no downside to adding checkerboard and dynamic res options. They make games workable on a greater variety of hardware setups and allow people to fine-tune their settings to an even greater degree, and in that sense they're not against the "spirit" of PC gaming at all. If anything I'd say the essence of the platform is about having choices, which includes tailoring your experience to whatever hardware you have.
It would be nice to see something like checkerboarding implemented in more titles. Not too useful for me ATM since I have a high refresh 1080p monitor, and I love it. But I'll upgrade this gear eventually.
Some PC games do have dynamic resolution. I played the Dishonored 2 demo at a locked 60 using it (outside of a couple odd moments where everything dropped into the teens for a few seconds then went back to 60, but I could never duplicate the effect in the same area). I'm more than glad to take some resolution drops during gameplay to keep 60. Dishonored 2 really shouldn't have needed it, but it is what it is. The demo was a joy to play through at a proper framerate. Look forward to finishing the game soon.
Some PC games do have dynamic resolution. I played the Dishonored 2 demo at a locked 60 using it (outside of a couple odd moments where everything dropped into the teens for a few seconds then went back to 60, but I could never duplicate the effect in the same area). I'm more than glad to take some resolution drops during gameplay to keep 60. Dishonored 2 really shouldn't have needed it, but it is what it is. The demo was a joy to play through at a proper framerate. Look forward to finishing the game soon.
FunkyDealer
Banned
This is really disappointing to hear from DF:
As I'm sure somebody must already have mentioned, enabling GPU scaling allows whatever resolution you want. I run games at 1080p, 12XXp, 1440p, 1620p, 1800p and 2160p. All depending on the game and target framerate.
It's super easy to set up on AMD cards at least, and I recon it's the same for Nvidia.
As I'm sure somebody must already have mentioned, enabling GPU scaling allows whatever resolution you want. I run games at 1080p, 12XXp, 1440p, 1620p, 1800p and 2160p. All depending on the game and target framerate.
It's super easy to set up on AMD cards at least, and I recon it's the same for Nvidia.
Having the resolution scaled internally by the game engine, whether by checkerboarding or some other method, will generally produce better quality results than doing it on your GPU or display. It also allows makes UI elements look better if you render them at the display's native resolution independently of what the game is running at.
Probably. Which is madness if so...
I vaguely remember reading Cerny say whatever they asked AMD to do for the PS4 and/or Pro, AMD was gonna look into implementing it in their future cards. Or something like that.
Some ppl have to remember low and mid range exist as options.
Thank you.
Also with HDMI 2.1 standard coming up and VRR, you'll see the benefits of having difference rendering solutions/techniques like this even more. Where every single extra frame per second plays a bigger significance to the overall greater user experience. It'll be fantastic having the option of utilizing these solutions on VRR OLEDs in late 2018-9. *fingers crossed*
This is much of why I want reconstruction techniques like checkerboard and temporal injection to become widely used in the console space, even into next gen. It's a 30-40% gain in GPU performance for a very small IQ reduction. That could be used to push fidelity or framerate quite a bit. VRR could also make more devs OK with targeting 60fps even if they can't hold a lock because small variations will be much less noticeable.
On PC it would allow more users to get closer to a 4k output while still maintaining the high framerates they've grown accustomed to at 1080p/1440p