Support NeoGAF

[Kaiserstark]

Sure this is will reveal sooner or later, but many things coming in hot and could change in 2 months.

Horizon did not even implement PSSR, and many games have the same PS5 internal resolution below 1080p where up scaling does not look good even with DLSS .

With what I stated above, I don't see any reason why they need to get this out to DF at the moment unless they intend to ship Horizon without PSSR and keep the sub 1080p internal res with PSSR which a step down from DLSS.

All it needs to do is look better than whatever mode it's replacing.

And there is nothing sony can do about what or how devs choose to do these things.

If a dev decides to leave everything as is and just swap out FSR2 for PSSR, and end up with an image that looks better/more stable but still underwhelming compared to what sony first-party devs are doing... there is nothing sony can do about that.

Honestly i'm really curious to know why a game like Alan Wake 2 has the exact same resolution on performance mode on PS5 and the PRO. Did they just swap FSR2 for PSSR and call it a day ?

If there are no other graphical improvements or maybe there is, it's strange that the internal resolution hasn't received a boost or they've just started working on the patch.

 

[Gaiff]

Here is blind test. Extremly hard to tell who is who

FSR looked fine during the cutscenes in HFW...then when you look at the butterflies when the game starts and then the water reflections, it's very apparent it's the one on the right. The left looks better.

Edit: Swapped them out in Wukong. FSR looks bad with the fur. A lot of dithering and it's all fizzled. FSR is left and right looks better.

 

[Bojji]

Here is blind test. Extremly hard to tell who is who

I doubt anyone would complain if every console game used FSR Q (1440p -> 4K), it's good enough when it has this amount of pixels to work with. Problem is console games can be well below 1080p or even 900p...

DLSS starts to really shine compared to FSR when you drop the resolution, DLSS P (1080p -> 4K) still looks great while FSR P looks like shit.

 

[Gaiff]

Still shot. Yeah, it's obvious which one is FSR by just looking at the hair lol.

 

[ChiefDada]

Here is blind test. Extremly hard to tell who is who

Lol idk which is which, but @ 6:54 there's extreme ghosting on whatever sort of particle that is for the GPU on the right in TLOU Pt.1

 

[Bojji]

Still shot. Yeah, it's obvious which one is FSR by just looking at the hair lol.

Spotting the difference is easy when you know where to look at.

 

[mayham2199]

yup. the European price quite literally is now at a point where you basically don't save any money compared to PC anymore.

some people will say "BuT tHE Pc DoEsn'T hAVe a DiSC drIVe, sO thiS isn'T FaIR!"

to which I say that a disc drive is not even remotely an essential part of a PC, but it absolutely is an essential part for many console players that have a library of disc games at home. meanwhile my PC library is all on Steam, GoG... and technically Epic (with their hundreds of free game giveaways over the years)

Yes but with that argument about physical at that point those people will never go pc because of their physical ps5 games. So they’ll pay for the disc drive instead of just losing all their games.

On top of all this those people can just get a normal ps5 and then the disc drive. So anyone pricing this out from the view point of their physical games is most likely just staying in the ecosystem. Why pay slightly higher or the same price and then lose all your games?

 

[Mobilemofo]

I love when car references/metaphors become part of videogame console/PC discussions.

This is like the 4th one I've heard today.

It goes like this: you both have exactly the same car; A ford escort. One of you then go and purchases a K'N filter, recaro seats (rip), and you have swapped the engine to a 1.4 instead of the standard 1.2

That's the upgrade in a nutshell.

 

[ChiefDada]

Still shot. Yeah, it's obvious which one is FSR by just looking at the hair lol.

Spotting the difference is easy when you know where to look at.

They both have their faults. I would be annoyed by both problems.

 

[Gaiff]

They both have their faults. I would be annoyed by both problems.

Didn’t look at TLOU yet, but FSR is without a doubt worse in the others. That’s 1440p upscaled to 4K though, so it still looks passable there. It’s when you go down that it becomes a big problem. If PSSR is better, then we’re good.

 

[ap_puff]

They both have their faults. I would be annoyed by both problems.

that's some serious ghosting, reminds me of DLSS in the mid-2.x versions. If they keep improving it and working on it it looks promising though.

 

[Vick]

Here is blind test. Extremly hard to tell who is who

DLSS advantage is so obvious on Wukong even starting from an hi-res source. More pleasing looking picture on Horizon as well. Minor, but there is a difference.

Lol idk which is which, but @ 6:54 there's extreme ghosting on whatever sort of particle that is for the GPU on the right in TLOU Pt.1

Good catch. That's pretty noticeable indeed, wonder how the hell whatever solution that is, likely DLSS, would handle the many sections in the game absolutely loaded with particles like that across the entire screen.

There's also some very noticeable ghosting elsewhere as well.

Zathalus , before it get lost in the DLSS/FSR talk I really need an answer here please :

I expect they obviously mention the extremely noticeable improvements over Fidelity in the final output, surely?

Spoiler

Including examples of less aliasing/artifacts on top of this kind of improved final looking assets?

I mean.. there's just no fucking way in hell they don't, right?

It is. Imagine bragging over your 8K GT7 at CNET when the game runs at lower res than base PS5 just to add half-assed RT reflections.. lol

Ignoring DF, knowing full well the bitter manchilds they are even aside of their fundings, is about to bite Sony in the ass.


I wouldn't count too much on that, even been just updated in September it would be moronic to use old footage. A week to cut and edit the footage for the reveal sounds relatively feasible.

 

[hinch7]

Here is blind test. Extremly hard to tell who is who

Not really, even with crappy compression you can see the obvious ghosting with FSR. Considering this is one of the best cases scenario's for FSR they have some ways to go. The lower you go the worse it gets. At 4K quality its certainly passable and its close enough that it shouldn't matter for most.

DLSS will be
Horizon - Left (ghosting on small moving objects/particles on right), TLOU - Left (ghosting on right), Wukong - Right (check out the trees, in cinematic and fine details still not quite as clear, GoT - Left (particles are a dead give away) DLSS just handles motion so much better and is better at detail retreival. Especially fine detail on tranparencies.

 

[Vick]

TLOU - DLSS Left (ghosting on right)

FSR on TLOU should be absolutely prohibited then. What the hell, most particles are nowhere to be seen and that big, most noticeable one turn into a feeble comet.

What would even happen in the many scenes like this?

Being 1440p native PS5 Performance even spinning the camera around like a maniac nothing happens, but I'm extremely curious to see how FSR would handle this.
In stationary form even.

 

[Bojji]

FSR on TLOU should be absolutely prohibited then. What the hell, most particles are nowhere to be seen and that big, most noticeable one turn into a feeble comet.

What would even happen in the many scenes like this?

Being 1440p native PS5 Performance even spinning the camera around like a maniac nothing happens, but I'm extremely curious to see how FSR would handle this.
In stationary form even.

Timestamped:

 

[Vick]

Timestamped:

Looks perfect.

What's going on in the DLSS/FSR comparison?

 

[ChiefDada]

Zathalus , before it get lost in the DLSS/FSR talk I really need an answer here please :

Alex mentioned in passing that it was "better in some aspects" than fidelity mode but they couldn't be bothered to give examples. Tbh it was very weird how they pick and chose to focus on certain aspects of comparisons.

For example, in Hogwarts, not once did they comment on the dramatic and most obvious RT boost between fidelity mode and PS5 Pro, particularly with ground reflections:

Nor the obvious effective increase of output resolution (table drape insignia, gridlines of stained glass, etc.)

Instead they wanted to dedicate the entire time talking about specular noise on the utensils. Weirdos.

 

[Vick]

Alex mentioned in passing that it was "better in some aspects" than fidelity mode but they couldn't be bothered to give examples. Tbh it was very weird how they pick and chose to focus on certain aspects of comparisons.

For example, in Hogwarts, not once did they comment on the dramatic and most obvious RT boost between fidelity mode and PS5 Pro, particularly with ground reflections:

Nor the obvious effective increase of output resolution (table drape insignia, gridlines of stained glass, etc.)

Instead they wanted to dedicate the entire time talking about specular noise on the utensils. Weirdos.

 

[Zathalus]

I expect they obviously mention the extremely noticeable improvements over Fidelity in the final output, surely?

Spoiler

Including examples of less aliasing/artifacts on top of this kind of improved final looking assets?

I mean.. there's just no fucking way in hell they don't, right?

It is. Imagine bragging over your 8K GT7 at CNET when the game runs at lower res than base PS5 just to add half-assed RT reflections.. lol

Ignoring DF, knowing full well the bitter manchilds they are even aside of their fundings, is about to bite Sony in the ass.


I wouldn't count too much on that, even been just updated in September it would be moronic to use old footage. A week to cut and edit the footage for the reveal sounds relatively feasible.

Yes they do mention that PSSR manages to beat native in several areas, but it looses in others (ghosting on grass). Hence the comment comparable image quality, some things better and some things worse. Much like DLSS really.

 

[Zathalus]

There is ghosting using DLAA, but it's subtle. I didn't spot it at first, but when I leaned closer and zoomed in, I could definitely see the trails. Not sure if you can see it there...probably not.

Edit: Yeah, never mind lmao. You can't see it. I'd have to post a 4K video, but I don't have a YouTube channel. Those little gifs won't do. Also worth noting is that there is no ghosting when using TAA. I would add that the ghosting is more apparent with DLAA than with DLSS Quality, but DLAA still has much better image quality overall.

DLSS Quality:



DLAA:



Disabling motion blur and DOF using DLSS quality certainly makes it far less noticeable. I think the issue is that the balloons have strings below them and DLSS is struggling to reconstruct them. DLAA has more pixel information to work with, so it's more noticeable there.

 

[Topher]

Some notes from the new DF special, just went over the first 3 games so far.

- First up is TLOU, PSSR seems to have some problems with ghosting. Especially on fine detail like grass.
- TLOU Part 2, 1440p upscaled to 4K with PSSR.
- Close enough or better in some ways vs native 4K.

- Ratchet and Clank is 1440p-1800p, right around Ratchet and Clank Quality mode. Upscaled to 4K with PSSR.
- Settings are from the reduced settings performance RT mode and not quality mode of PS5. Compared to PC has reduced LOD, no background DoF, and less crowd density.
- Compared to PC upscalers at 4K quality. Way better vs FSR 3.1 in general, less ghosting and fizzle, however distant trees have more shimmering. Compared to DLSS there is more shimmering on distant trees and objects in motion are handled better with DLSS.
- Conclusion, better than FSR 3.1 in a lot of ways, not quite as good as DLSS.
- Not equal to 4K in this game, puzzled as to why as other games are better.
- No mention of additional RT effects like the PC version has.

- Alan Wake 2, only have very limited footage.
- Appears to have two modes, 30fps vs 60fps.
- 60fps mode is 864p, 30fps mode is 1260p.
- No signs of FSR2, almost certainly PSSR, but very little footage. FSR2 was terrible in this game, PSSR would be welcome.
- 30fps has RT reflections, 60fps does not.

Twitter is passing around your notes my man

 

[Zathalus]

Twitter is passing around your notes my man

Wow, plagiarism. BRB contacting my lawyer.

 

[TheRedRiders]

uh oh...

 

[ChiefDada]

 

[Romulus]

This isn't how that works. GPU determines framerate ("performance" ) just as much as CPU (probably even more for a lot of games). Keeping the GPU the same as base PS5 and ramping up CPU would likely just mean your CPU idles while it waits for the GPU to finish with the frame.

The difference in this situation is cpu is a huge bottleneck. I've upgraded my cpu on PC and doubled my performance without changing anything else. In one game in particular it almost 3x the frames.

The other point to this is utilizing cpu cores in pc games isn't optimized as much as they are on console.

 

[VictorVectors]

You cant simply change the CPU mid generation, Never happened before. You don't want to make devs life a living hell developing essentially for 2 different devices!

If you are going to change it then make PS6 also the CPU in PS5 is good enough, when adding the I/O block thats equal to 11 Zen 2 cores in power.

Nonsense.

They boosted the CPU for PS4 PRO. Had a “base” setting that emulated the exact timings of the base system CPU automatically.

 

[SweetTooth]

Nonsense.

They boosted the CPU for PS4 PRO. Had a “base” setting that emulated the exact timings of the base system CPU automatically.

Boosted the clocks of the same CPU! Something they might actually did for PS5Pro

They didn't change the entire architecture of the CPU or move to different CPU

 

[Gaiff]

uh oh...

I dunno about this. Microsoft should ask for a refund because Sony did themselves in with that price tag, presentation, and lack of a disc drive. That little showcase was horrendous and whoever at marketing greenlit it should be fired.

 

[SmokedMeat]

You can't play physical games in the $1600+ PC I mentioned either.

The console, like the PC, has the option of getting it with a disc drive. As was the case with the base PS5 both slim and original. They always had the PS5 cheaper option without disc drive and a more expensive option with it.

This complain of "it has no disc drive" is just a bullshit complain about a non-issue because you are trying to find an excuse to complain about it.


Again, complete bullshit.

PS5 Pro gives you hardware that a PC gives you for more than the double of its price. But you complain about the pricing of the console and not the PC. It's nonsensical.

Regarding the plus, you don't need it for single player games or F2P games. You only need it for the MP mode of paid games with MP. And it has a great value for its price, just because the games it gives you (only counting the ones you like), or just with the extra discounts it gives you. The money you "save" with each one of these two things separatedly each year more than covers its price.

And the game prices are basically the same than in PC. And not all -at all- are priced at $70, they have ways to get them cheaper at launch, and over time they get discounted and can get them dirt cheap. Plus if you get them in physical unlike the PC ones you can sell them in 2nd hand if you want.

Where do I even begin here?

You’re doing your best to downplay the exclusion of a physical drive in a console, when physical games have been the one big advantage to consoles since their inception.
Bu bu bu PC don’t fly because PC has been a digital platform for years. It’s a digital platform not owned by a single entity with competitive pricing. You obviously don’t understand PC or how it works. What’s $70 for you on day one on console is sold at discounts on PC.

Paying for online a great value? Yeah, you’re just in full acceptance/defense mode.

As for PC pricing yes, we do complain. But a PC is as expensive as we want/need it to be. You don’t need to spend big money to enjoy the benefits of PC gaming. That’s for everyone on the platform, regardless of build.

 

[yurinka]

Where do I even begin here?

You’re doing your best to downplay the exclusion of a physical drive in a console, when physical games have been the one big advantage to consoles since their inception.
Bu bu bu PC don’t fly because PC has been a digital platform for years. It’s a digital platform not owned by a single entity with competitive pricing. You obviously don’t understand PC or how it works. What’s $70 for you on day one on console is sold at discounts on PC.

Paying for online a great value? Yeah, you’re just in full acceptance/defense mode.

As for PC pricing yes, we do complain. But a PC is as expensive as we want/need it to be. You don’t need to spend big money to enjoy the benefits of PC gaming. That’s for everyone on the platform, regardless of build.

If you complain that PS5 Pro has no disc drive (which has, you can buy it) you should also complain of PC not having disc drive too.

If you complain about PS5 Pro being too expensive, you should also complain for PC being too expensive because to reach similar performance requires you to pay more than the double of the price of PS5 Pro.

 

[Bojji]

If you complain that PS5 Pro has no disc drive (which has, you can buy it) you should also complain of PC not having disc drive too.

WTF? You can buy multiple disc drives for PC but they would be useless for games.

People that have tons of physical games for PS4/PS5 are in fucked up position, disc drives are expensive and sold out in some places. PS5 Pro is useless for them, it lacks critical component.

 

[jm89]

uh oh...

Some people will laugh at this.

But never underestimate the scumbaggery of MS.

This a company just last year that bribed to get congressman and senators to join the fight for the abk acquisition. Tried to get top UK government officials to put pressure on the CMA.

 

[Gaiff]

If you complain about PS5 Pro being too expensive, you should also complain for PC being too expensive because to reach similar performance requires you to pay more than the double of the price of PS5 Pro.

Not even close to double, let alone more.

 

[ChiefDada]

Thank fucking God. THIS is the right way to compare HFW fidelity mode vs Pro: With the readily available native 4k30 mode on base PS5.

Not using a PC GPU 4k DLAA applied like Alex or 4k CB mode like Oliver(shame their idiocy seems to have rubbed on him)

 

[Senua]

Thank fucking God. THIS is the right way to compare HFW fidelity mode vs Pro: With the readily available native 4k30 mode on base PS5.

Not using a PC GPU 4k DLAA applied like Alex or 4k CB mode like Oliver(shame their idiocy seems to have rubbed on him)

Yep, always compare it with something worse than something better, that way the Pro doesn't ever look bad!

 

[sachos]

Interesting drop in resolutions for GT7 and Alan Wake 2. I was expecting around DLSS Quality drop for GT7 but it looks more like Balanced no? And Alan Wake 2 is worse than Performance.

 

[ChiefDada]

Yep, always compare it with something worse than something better, that way the Pro doesn't ever look bad!

Try to take a break from the I-hate-console schtick for a moment to think logically; if PS5 Pro primary goal is to provide fidelity mode visuals at 60fps, the most sensible method of testing is comparing base PS5 fidelity mode with the new PS5 Pro 60fps mode. That is what NXG is doing here. Testing Horizon against a PC GPU with AI upsampling applied is especially stupid when Cerny already stated it is the larger GPU that is responsible for the uplift with no PSSR involved. It's simply bad methodology producing apple/orange useless comparison.

And it's not about trying to make the PS5 Pro look good; NX even says the base PS5 mode still edges Pro from a IQ standpoint.



So stop projecting your bias onto others. Believe it or not, some people want to have empirical insight from sound testing and comparisons.

 

[Gaiff]

Try to take a break from the I-hate-console schtick for a moment to think logically; if PS5 Pro primary goal is to provide fidelity mode visuals at 60fps, the most sensible method of testing is comparing base PS5 fidelity mode with the new PS5 Pro 60fps mode. That is what NXG is doing here. Testing Horizon against a PC GPU with AI upsampling applied is especially stupid when Cerny already stated it is the larger GPU that is responsible for the uplift with no PSSR involved. It's simply bad methodology producing apple/orange useless comparison.

And it's not about trying to make the PS5 Pro look good; NX even says the base PS5 mode still edges Pro from a IQ standpoint.



So stop projecting your bias onto others. Believe it or not, some people want to have empirical insight from sound testing and comparisons.

I take an issue with your stance there, chief. You made a thread to imply that PSSR was better than DLAA/DLSS. DF then tested PSSR against DLAA/DLSS and now you have a problem with that? Their objective was to compare DLSS with PSSR as far as I'm aware. NXGamer is comparing PS5 vs PS5 Pro. Did DF compare PSSR to the regular PS5 as well in their preview video?

 

[Senua]

I take an issue with your stance there, chief. You made a thread to imply that PSSR was better than DLAA/DLSS. DF then tested PSSR against DLAA/DLSS and now you have a problem with that? Their objective was to compare DLSS with PSSR as far as I'm aware. NXGamer is comparing PS5 vs PS5 Pro. Did DF compare PSSR to the regular PS5 as well in their preview video?

Bingo. If it was better than DLSS, he'd be glad of the comparison, but because it's not...well we see how he feels now.

It's all rather transparent

 

[ChiefDada]

I take an issue with your stance there, chief. You made a thread to imply that PSSR was better than DLAA/DLSS. DF then tested PSSR against DLAA/DLSS and now you have a problem with that? Their objective was to compare DLSS with PSSR as far as I'm aware. NXGamer is comparing PS5 vs PS5 Pro. Did DF compare PSSR to the regular PS5 as well in their preview video?

I only take issue with Horizon comparison. DF understood, as I did, that Horizon wasn't utilizing PSSR. Pure GPU uplift. So comparing PS5 Pro GPU to a PC that is running 4K DLAA DRS for the sake of determining proximity to native 4k resolution is bizarre to me. DLAA muddies the water and they should use the proprietary TAA in such a case; native resolution and AA treatment are independent of each other. That was Alex comparison. Oliver subsequently compared the 4k CB/balanced mode to the Pro. The Pro looked better, but I'm equally annoyed because the base PS5 fidelity mode is available to compare.

DF compared TLOU2 fidelity mode to PS5 Pro performance mode. That would've been the correct approach to make with Horizon as well. Imo the primary goal is to test how well PS5 Pro accomplishes it's purpose for existing, which is getting existing fidelity modes to run at 60fps.

 

[ChiefDada]

Bingo. If it was better than DLSS, he'd be glad of the comparison, but because it's not...well we see how he feels now.

It's all rather transparent

If WHAT was better than DLSS? Horizon doesn't use AI upscaling.

 

[Gaiff]

I only take issue with Horizon comparison. DF understood, as I did, that Horizon wasn't utilizing PSSR. Pure GPU uplift. So comparing PS5 Pro GPU to a PC that is running 4K DLAA DRS for the sake of determining proximity to native 4k resolution is bizarre to me. DLAA muddies the water and they should use the proprietary TAA in such a case; native resolution and AA treatment are independent of each other. That was Alex comparison. Oliver subsequently compared the 4k CB/balanced mode to the Pro. The Pro looked better, but I'm equally annoyed because the base PS5 fidelity mode is available to compare.

What does it do better on the Pro exactly? It's not using PSSR, so is it just running at 60fps instead of 30 in the 4K/Quality Mode?

DF compared TLOU2 fidelity mode to PS5 Pro performance mode. That would've been the correct approach to make with Horizon as well. Imo the primary goal is to test how well PS5 Pro accomplishes it's purpose for existing, which is getting existing fidelity modes to run at 60fps.

So they didn't compare the Pro version of HFW to the PS5 one? That's strange.

 

[ChiefDada]

What does it do better on the Pro exactly? It's not using PSSR, so is it just running at 60fps instead of 30 in the 4K/Quality Mode?

Basically yes, or at least attempting to. Per Cerny, it is using the larger GPU to achieve better resolve at 60fps, in addition to better lighting, shadows and other vfx. I won't fault DF for not identifying any vfx improvements as that is squarely Sony's fault for many reasons. But Alex is ridiculous imo for calling the shadows "different" when PC is showing obvious shadow aliasing on the character's neck and forehead while the Pro version does not.

So they didn't compare the Pro version of HFW to the PS5 one? That's strange.

Oliver compared to the base PS5 performance mode and noted Pro version IQ noticeably better, then offers a guess that the Pro version is using 4k CB without bothering to confirm/analyze base PS5 resolution/native 4k or balanced/4kCB modes.

 

[ChiefDada]

Twitter is passing around your notes my man

uh oh...

Radical_3d

 

[Radical_3d]

Radical_3d

Ok, if John blocks me on Twitter for this I’m going to be very upset with that PSTroll.

 

[XXL]

.

 

[XXL]

Twitter is passing around your notes my man

uh oh...

Radical_3d

NeoGAF

 

[Radical_3d]

NeoGAF

GAF -> Internet -> GAF, as was said in the old days.

 

[HRK69]

That PC is a waste of time.

You will be spending time in the settings menu for new games vs plug and playing with the PS5 pro at upscale 4K/60 fps.

IMO depending on what you plan to play low to mid tier PCs are a waste of time if you want to get the best experience. If all you care about is 60 fps but you don’t mind playing at like 1080p on med settings then this does not apply to you and a low-mid tier PC might be a good fit.

The PC bros really down play convenience and to me that’s the beauty of a high end PC. If you don’t want to have to optimize new games (playing around with settings) to get a great experience low -med tier PCs isn’t going to be a good experience and no one wants to talk about that which is why I think the PS5 pro is actually a good deal.

This is also why “pc bros” keep debating pc vs ps5 pro because this ps5 pro will out perform a lot of their PCs at a lower price. Just look at the most common GPU used on steam lol.

This post made me chuckle.

'Dont bother with PC gaming unless you have the best hardware'

 

[yurinka]

Not even close to double, let alone more.

It's more than double of the PS5 Pro if you get a GPU of that performance with AI (so, minimum 4070, no AMD card in the market is equivalent), equivalent memory and SSD, plus controller, OS etc.

Over $1600 / 1600€ without counting keyboard, mouse and monitor.

If WHAT was better than DLSS? Horizon doesn't use AI upscaling.

Apparently Horizon gets native 4K in PS5 Pro (at 30fps), which provides better IQ than DLSS 4K in PC (at 60fps).