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[scy]

People always say they sacrifice <insert exaggeration here> amount of stats to get CDR. Well I must have broken the game or something because I'm currently sitting at 51% CDR with 80 +Fire, 899k damage, 1.66 AS and 10m toughness on my wizard.

I must be a wizard in real life!

yer a wizard

Also for people aiming for a wand of Woh...45% CDR is going to leave you with a casting gap in your chain explosions, you want at least 52% CDR to cast EB constantly with no delay.

I'm going to feel bad when people finish their Marauder's, Jade Harvester's, Archon / Woh, etc. gear goals and find out that rolling off their CDR and other useful stats was a bad idea and they'll have to find those pieces with the ideal stats again.

 

[GalacticSushiman]

I worked a bit on my lightning wiz these days, to get to this.

What do you guys think? I know I could benefit from a RRoG, and also by adding a part to Tal Rasha. I am looking desperately for mage fists from Kadala, but no luck yet. I also know my pants and pauldron are 'meh'

Anything else I should look at? Thx Guys!

 

[Angelus Errare]

People always say they sacrifice <insert exaggeration here> amount of stats to get CDR. Well I must have broken the game or something because I'm currently sitting at 51% CDR with 80 +Fire, 899k damage, 1.66 AS and 10m toughness on my wizard.

I must be a wizard in real life!

Also for people aiming for a wand of Woh...45% CDR is going to leave you with a casting gap in your chain explosions, you want at least 52% CDR to cast EB constantly with no delay.

Opps I lied. I have 916k damage.

Sorry for lying.

 

[ElyrionX]

Because 10% of 50 seconds is 5s. It's still a gain of 10% CDR with respect to the step before it. There's never a point on the curve where adding more CDR will return less CDR than you gained, barring if you're only checking with respect to the base. If it was straight additive stacking, it would be more akin to exponential scaling since each %CDR would be better than the last; multiplicative keeps it linear.

But, in that case, you'd say the same thing about Armor/All Resist having Diminishing Returns, I suppose.



The thing is that you're sacrificing mostly is Attack Speed and then excess CC/CHD at most. Getting to the point that you get to use Archon almost at all times is a far bigger deal than a net gain of 5-7% damage on your sheet elsewhere.

Basically, I'm saying there's no reason to skip it on Weapon/Source (Mirrorball even comes with it!), Rings, and Gloves. This applies at large to most end-game CDR builds. Sure, balance your stats still but you'll find you reach 50% CC / 400% CHD ranges even with these in place.

We are talking about absolute numbers here. Not relative. For every additional CDR affix you obtain on your gear, you get a lower amount of time shaved off your Archon CD. That is a fact and is the very definition of diminishing returns. You are not incorrect to state that a 10% reduction at any level is, in fact, a 10% reduction of your existing CD but that is a warped perspective since all we are concerned about here is to reduce the base CD of Archon to as low as possible while balancing it against our gear requirements.

It's not just damage stats you are giving up. Those slots all can roll defensive stats too and mitigation matters so much in T5/6.

 

[scy]

We are talking about absolute numbers here. Not relative. For every additional CDR affix you obtain on your gear, you get a lower amount of time shaved off your Archon CD. That is a fact and is the very definition of diminishing returns. You are not incorrect to state that a 10% reduction at any level is, in fact, a 10% reduction of your existing CD but that is a warped perspective since all we are concerned about here is to reduce the base CD of Archon to as low as possible while balancing it against our gear requirements.

So is Armor and All Resist also suffering from diminishing returns? Because the same logic applies.

It's not just damage stats you are giving up. Those slots all can roll defensive stats too and mitigation matters so much in T5/6.

They can roll defensive stats. This is correct. They, however, aren't used for those stats to begin with so this line of thought makes no sense: You didn't itemize those stats in those locations anyway.

Also, since I do T5/T6 with Wizards who geared CDR (and my own Wizard is geared for CDR) and we all do fine, I think I need to question again: What exactly are you giving up?

 

[ElyrionX]

People always say they sacrifice <insert exaggeration here> amount of stats to get CDR. Well I must have broken the game or something because I'm currently sitting at 51% CDR with 80 +Fire, 899k damage, 1.66 AS and 10m toughness on my wizard.

I must be a wizard in real life!

Also for people aiming for a wand of Woh...45% CDR is going to leave you with a casting gap in your chain explosions, you want at least 52% CDR to cast EB constantly with no delay.

I have 46% CDR, 66+ arcane, 1412k damage, 1.67 AS and 11m toughness. Wow, I broke the game too so I must be a wizard in real life as well!

If you want to be a smartass about things, do try harder.

Also, there are people on the official forums who posted about being able to get 60% CDR. How about you try that and see what kind of stats you can then post to brag to everyone else in this thread?

 

[ElyrionX]

So is Armor and All Resist also suffering from diminishing returns? Because the same logic applies.

And how is this relevant to the discussion of diminishing returns on Archon cooldown?

They can roll defensive stats. This is correct. They, however, aren't used for those stats to begin with so this line of thought makes no sense: You didn't itemize those stats in those locations anyway.

Also, since I do T5/T6 with Wizards who geared CDR (and my own Wizard is geared for CDR) and we all do fine, I think I need to question again: What exactly are you giving up?

I did gear for CDR. I just didn't gear for it as aggressively as I could have. My TF rolled 600+ vit on it and I kept it there in favour of rolling the damage (admittedly before I messed around with CDR builds). I also rolled for CDR on my source. I don't have any of it on my rings and ammy. I just didn't think that step up from 46% to 55% was worth the kind of stats I'd have to sacrifice in those slots for the very reasons I stated in my previous post (ie. the in-game application of Archon requires a certain amount of player judgment and not something you use whenever off CD).

 

[scy]

And how is this relevant to the discussion of diminishing returns on Archon cooldown?

Because they work the same and I remember discussions on the Armor/AR side of things with you saying that it's not diminishing returns. CDR% is the same: Each point is worth less overall but stays linear with respect to itself. Yes, the absolute difference reflects less total gain (which I noted originally, anyway) but this does not make CDR% a stat suffering from diminishing returns. It's still linear in effect; if it stacked additively, it would scale exponentially with respect to itself.

For diminishing returns to be true, there needs to be a point where 10% CDR returns less than 10% CDR with respect to itself (e.g., 50% -> 52.5%, a 5% step up from adding an extra 10% affix).

I did gear for CDR. I just didn't gear for it as aggressively as I could have. My TF rolled 600+ vit on it and I kept it there in favour of rolling the damage (admittedly before I messed around with CDR builds). I also rolled for CDR on my source. I don't have any of it on my rings and ammy. I just didn't think that step up from 46% to 55% was worth the kind of stats I'd have to sacrifice in those slots for the very reasons I stated in my previous post (ie. the in-game application of Archon requires a certain amount of player judgment and not something you use whenever off CD).

And increasing the uptime is still the greatest gain in damage. It also increases the effective Crowd Control uptime with Black Hole (and Frost Nova, for those who use both) when Archon is down.

It's more a case that the increase in Archon and other cooldown uptime is a greater net gain than other stats in their slots.

 

[Artanisix]

its gettin tense up in here

 

[Ricerocket]

I've steamrolled T5 with ElyrionX (and could have done T6 no problem).

 

[Angelus Errare]

I've steamrolled T5 with Degnatron

/shrug.

I have 46% CDR, 66+ arcane, 1412k damage, 1.67 AS and 11m toughness. Wow, I broke the game too so I must be a wizard in real life as well!

If you want to be a smartass about things, do try harder.

Also, there are people on the official forums who posted about being able to get 60% CDR. How about you try that and see what kind of stats you can then post to brag to everyone else in this thread?

lol

If your entire goal is to get number one on Diabloprogress then congrats bro you're winning. Those people with 60% CDR aren't concerned with being number one on a site but rather being able to do T5-T6 in a timely manner. If you watch these people doing T6 in sub 10 minutes they're stacking CDR for a very real reason. And at most many of them are sacrificing AS because you really don't need much (If I could drop some of the AS I have now I would in a heartbeat). The archon build is effectively the Wand of Woh build.

And I would totally try to get 60% CDR if I could get items I want to drop, and I would definitely tell people what my stats were. I'm not concerned with being number one on Diabloprogress.

 

[kirblar]

I'm going to feel bad when people finish their Marauder's, Jade Harvester's, Archon / Woh, etc. gear goals and find out that rolling off their CDR and other useful stats was a bad idea and they'll have to find those pieces with the ideal stats again.

I'm sitting at ~33% for Perma-Sac buff on my WD. If/when I get Tall Man's finger, will have to gear for it to keep Flame Voodoo Army up as much as possible. (Since it turns off the sac buff but makes up for it on the Doggy.) Realized that had to be explicitly why they made the new MegaDoggy as good as it is.

 

[ElyrionX]

Because they work the same and I remember discussions on the Armor/AR side of things with you saying that it's not diminishing returns. CDR% is the same: Each point is worth less overall but stays linear with respect to itself. Yes, the absolute difference reflects less total gain (which I noted originally, anyway) but this does not make CDR% a stat suffering from diminishing returns. It's still linear in effect; if it stacked additively, it would scale exponentially with respect to itself.

For diminishing returns to be true, there needs to be a point where 10% CDR returns less than 10% CDR with respect to itself (e.g., 50% -> 52.5%, a 5% step up from adding an extra 10% affix).



And increasing the uptime is still the greatest gain in damage. It also increases the effective Crowd Control uptime with Black Hole (and Frost Nova, for those who use both) when Archon is down.

It's more a case that the increase in Archon and other cooldown uptime is a greater net gain than other stats in their slots.

To be frank, I don't remember ever saying that Armour/AR do not suffer from diminihsing returns. Even if I did, I was just saying it based off of someone else's statement/opinion. I never really looked at it and thought about it myself.

AFAIK, diminishing returns on mitigation stats kick in when you consider the mitigation stats in totality since total mitigation is a product of all the mitigation stats. This is the reason why I was initially skeptical about the damage reduction secondary affixes.

Anyway. we are clearly not going anywhere in this discussion so it would be pretty much pointless to carry on. I'm not going to change your mind on this and what would be the point even if I do? I see your point and in the process, have gained another perspective which is something I always value.

It's late here and I need to work tomorrow so good night and have fun rifting.

 

[Ricerocket]

I've steamrolled T5 with Degnatron

/shrug.

Yeah I know, just funny you guys brought it up with the "i do T5/T6" even though T5 is a joke.

 

[ElyrionX]

I've steamrolled T5 with Degnatron

/shrug.



lol

If your entire goal is to get number one on Diabloprogress then congrats bro you're winning. Those people with 60% CDR aren't concerned with being number one on a site but rather being able to do T5-T6 in a timely manner. If you watch these people doing T6 in sub 10 minutes they're stacking CDR for a very real reason. And at most many of them are sacrificing AS because you really don't need much (If I could drop some of the AS I have now I would in a heartbeat). The archon build is effectively the Wand of Woh build.

And I would totally try to get 60% CDR if I could get items I want to drop, and I would definitely tell people what my stats were. I'm not concerned with being number one on Diabloprogress.

I'm not disagreeing that CDR is of paramount importance to the Woh build since that relies on your character being able to cast Woh as much as possible. In fact, I'd say stacking 60% for a Woh build probably makes sense. But the discussion was centered on Archon, not Woh.

And no, the Archon build is not the Woh build except for the fact that they both rely on stacking CDR. AS benefits Archon because it affects how fast you can use your Arcane Strike and Disintegration Wave hits harder the higher your AS is.

It's like the people who thought using Archon in their Woh build was a good idea just because they were already stacking CDR. But the two builds are so fundamentally different that it's quite pointless to do that.

 

[ElyrionX]

its gettin tense up in here

I know right? It's almost like the Dota 2 thread. We even had Thacker in here!

 

[scy]

Yeah I know, just funny you guys brought it up with the "i do T5/T6" even though T5 is a joke.

Except he brought it up originally by saying the extra mitigation stats were important in T5/T6?

 

[tn2007]

Yay I finally got a calamity! Rolls aren't great, but I'll take it, Now I just need a fire SoJ.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I'm not disagreeing that CDR is of paramount importance to the Woh build since that relies on your character being able to cast Woh as much as possible. In fact, I'd say stacking 60% for a Woh build probably makes sense. But the discussion was centered on Archon, not Woh.

And no, the Archon build is not the Woh build except for the fact that they both rely on stacking CDR. AS benefits Archon because it affects how fast you can use your Arcane Strike and Disintegration Wave hits harder the higher your AS is.

It's like the people who thought using Archon in their Woh build was a good idea just because they were already stacking CDR. But the two builds are so fundamentally different that it's quite pointless to do that.

Fundamentally different? not really. If it were paramount to Archon then you'd be stacking much more AS than you currently have (Yes AS is more important but the amount your suggesting isn't really true). 1.67? Yea that's how much most WoW build end up having to include my own. The amount I have is a direct carry over from my WoW build and I haven't decided to chase anymore. In fact I actively roll off my AS when possible. Just like WoW almost everyone will roll choose CDR over AS for Archon.

They're ridiculously interchangeable as far as builds go, to suggest they builds are fundamentally different is really&#8230;just bull to be frank. Anyone can look at the top WoW users and the top Archon users (fire specifically) and you're not going to see major differences outside of the weapon used for obvious reasons, well that and rolling EB if you want that extra damage. You're not going to see a bunch of 2.13 AS+ Archon builds, because at the very end of it...no one cares about their AS over CDR because most people use Archon in packs thus they're going for explosions and not disintegrate.

That and I'm currently using WoW in conjuction with Archon.

 

[ChoklitReign]

This game is turning into a SimCity-level technical disaster. In the past 3 days I have had the worst connection ever. Just in the last hour I've died 3 FUCKING TIMES solely due to lag. It ain't my ISP's fault because connections were never a problem when I bought the game, it's only become a serious concern very recently. Not to mention this is the first time I've seen it crash at the frequency of a Bethesda game. This game has become unplayable.

 

[Angelus Errare]

This game is turning into a SimCity-level technical disaster. In the past 3 days I have had the worst connection ever. Just in the last hour I've died 3 FUCKING TIMES solely due to lag. It ain't my ISP's fault because connections were never a problem when I bought the game, it's only become a serious concern very recently. Not to mention this is the first time I've seen it crash at the frequency of a Bethesda game. This game has become unplayable.

Conspiracy theory time.

Blizzard increased drop rate = more people coming back = horrible ping = less loots dropping because!

Jokes aside, I haven't really had any problems network wise, my issues are simply framerate drops out the ass.

 

[scy]

Jokes aside, I haven't really had any problems network wise, my issues are simply framerate drops out the ass.

0 FPS Bridge

 

[jblank83]

Thanks so much to all who responded. What's proc rate? I see people mentioning the term but I have no idea what proc means.

"Proc" is a common term in RPGs. http://www.wowwiki.com/Proc. It refers to the special effect that is processed when the weapon hits an enemy. Thunderfury's proc is the lightning blast that hits up to 5 enemies and slows their movement and attack by 30%.

Rate is how often that the proc occurs. Thunderfury has a high proc rate, 60%, and a very powerful effect. Thus it outperforms other weapons that have higher raw DPS numbers.

This game is turning into a SimCity-level technical disaster. In the past 3 days I have had the worst connection ever. Just in the last hour I've died 3 FUCKING TIMES solely due to lag. It ain't my ISP's fault because connections were never a problem when I bought the game, it's only become a serious concern very recently. Not to mention this is the first time I've seen it crash at the frequency of a Bethesda game. This game has become unplayable.

I've had zero problems. You can run a traceroute to determine where drops are occurring:
https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/performing-a-traceroute

 

[Angelus Errare]

0 FPS Bridge

Feels like it sometimes.

A few meteors going off? Half your framerate!

Diablo 3 more demanding than Crysis 3 confirmed. My poor 770GTX.

 

[cdyhybrid]

All my problems today have been Comcast. Fuck you Comcast.

 

[Dahbomb]

Lag has been better for me since the new patch. I also get less freezes in game. The game is still unoptimized as fuck (with framerate drops commonly even on good hardware) though.

 

[kirblar]

This game is turning into a SimCity-level technical disaster. In the past 3 days I have had the worst connection ever. Just in the last hour I've died 3 FUCKING TIMES solely due to lag. It ain't my ISP's fault because connections were never a problem when I bought the game, it's only become a serious concern very recently. Not to mention this is the first time I've seen it crash at the frequency of a Bethesda game. This game has become unplayable.

They did something to massively screw up framerates, and it makes the game horrific in multiplayer now.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Anyone need a Blackguard? Just join my game and one will probably drop within 5 minutes -_-

 

[Dahbomb]

I wonder when the 2.1 PTR will go live.

It seems like Tiered Rifts will be timed at 15 minutes. This means DPS is essential as always. I kinda wanted some Rifts to be "survival" oriented where you just complete the Rifts without dying once.

I pretty much expect that the "difficulty" of Tiered Rifts is just going to come from monsters having trillions of health (because billion is honestly not enough any more). So you are unable to finish a Rift in 15 minutes because it takes so long to bring down monsters.


Also LOL @ this:

 

[kirblar]

They said that they want Survivability to matter- they probably have a 3 Deaths and you're out rule in place.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

The huge thread on the official forums asking for a nerf to WD pets gives me the sad feels.

 

[CitizenVectron]

So I just found a Fate of the Fell, and I've been loving the 2 extra Heaven's Fury beams. It rolled with a socket as well, so I am golden. My only question is, what should I reroll? Right now it's doing fire damage, but does that really matter if I am lightning based? My bracers give extra lighting %, but as far as I am aware that only affects skills, not base weapon damage. Here's my weapon:

Any advice?

 

[scy]

The damage is low so I would fix that. If you want to go permanent Akarat's Champion, you'll want CDR but you can compensate with a CDR set like Crimson instead. Just getting the damage up will probably be for the best.

Also, yes, the Damage type doesn't matter.

 

[Dahbomb]

The huge thread on the official forums asking for a nerf to WD pets gives me the sad feels.

Diablo forums gonna Diablo forum.

 

[Solid Amit]

The huge thread on the official forums asking for a nerf to WD pets gives me the sad feels.

Lucky me just started uaing Jade Harvester

 

[CitizenVectron]

The damage is low so I would fix that. If you want to go permanent Akarat's Champion, you'll want CDR but you can compensate with a CDR set like Crimson instead. Just getting the damage up will probably be for the best.

Also, yes, the Damage type doesn't matter.

So you're saying reroll vit into some sort of damage increase? Is + attack speed or + damage % generally better?

 

[inter]

Ladies and gentleman, am I correct in thinking that I should equip the Thunderfury between these 2 options?

 

[Laconic]

I got this with my T2 caliber Lit Barb.

'Dat 15% chance.

 

[scy]

So you're saying reroll vit into some sort of damage increase? Is + attack speed or + damage % generally better?

No, my bad. I mean roll the actual damage range to a decent number. Both IAS% and Damage% would be less damage than getting a 1700+ top-end damage roll.

 

[SneakyStephan]

The huge thread on the official forums asking for a nerf to WD pets gives me the sad feels.

I stay clear of that cesspool

blizzard community is awful and the official forums attract the worst of the worst

 

[eek5]

Diablo forums gonna Diablo forum.

bunch of bitter monks probably

 

[garath]

Finally got my 4th marauders piece. The shoulders. Exactly what I was looking for. But not from kadala. Over 1500 shards for the last couple days with not a single legendary. Dammit Kadala.

Still no RRoG either. Was a fun weekend but only the maurader piece to show for it

Edit: the zoo of animals is hilarious.

 

[tn2007]

Got two unity rings now, but gonna save for a different class. My RoRG and T&T is too important to give up.

 

[RDreamer]

Man, every day I've had time to play during this bonus thing has been fucking awful. Laggy as hell. Basically unplayable. I was dying left and right while mashing on my pot button standing on top of a health globe (or so I thought).

 

[Deleted member 325805]

Finally got my set boots from Kadala, I've been pounding RiF pretty hard and it took around 13k shards to get them. Now I just need the gloves and I can get my 6 piece bonus with the ring (I have a crappy one).

 

[bcl0328]

damn that was a good rift. T4 in 10 minutes flat. got 6 legendaries. noticing a lot more set items drop now. just need more tal rasha and not vyrs.

 

[racketpunch]

Got two unity rings now, but gonna save for a different class. My RoRG and T&T is too important to give up.

If you have the follower token that allows them to never die then put the rings on right away. You can solo farm t5-t6 instantly based on your current gear.

 

[TTOOLL]

bunch of bitter monks probably

but monks do suck hehe. After getting a Crusader to 70 I just gave up on playing my monk.

 

[CRA5H]

Holy crap. Didn't mean to start a huge debate regarding archon/CDR from my question last night. Really good to hear different perspectives so in the end, more knowledge can only be more beneficial.

Anyways, picked up a 2mm Mirror ball today with pretty deadly rolls. Now I'm really kicking myself for giving my cindercoat, which I found on my lightning wiz, to my fire monk. I had to roll int to Dex with no sockets...
Hindsight's a bitch but you live and you learn. Still having a lot of fun with my lightning wiz tho.

 

[IceMarker]

My weekend cannot come soon enough, only 4 days left of good drop rate!