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[mclem]

It still looks like both to me. He did kill them, but now he didn't. That's what time travel does.

Here's the thing that I think's key: the entire plotline is instigated from Hurt's time. A future Doctor isn't influencing him by coming back - he (or rather, The Moment) is actively seeking one out. It's reasonable to assume that The Moment would always do that, because at that stage in the storyline, there's no influence from a different time.

In your imagining of a situation where the War Doctor *did* kill the timelords, what do you imagine the Moment did in that situation? It's still the same Moment with the same conscience. Why didn't it prevent him there?

 

[mclem]

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the special made it clear that if a Doctor meets his future self, he forgets about it.

Which is a *delightfully* simple way of papering over some mild unpleasantness...

...and now I'm thinking: If he meets him a second time, do those memories come back?

...and now I'm thinking: Doesn't that sound like the Silence?

 

[Lynd7]

Also another thing. Matts Tardis exterior windows were different when they landed at the Moment's location. It had fully white light coming out of them and no longer had the slightly shaded look happening.

 

[catabarez]

What about the timelock the Time Lords had to deal with when they used the Master?

 

[V_Arnold]

What about the timelock the Time Lords had to deal with when they used the Master?

The Moment lifted it for the Doctor and for the Doctor only. The lock was still in place.

 

[JoeM86]

Just opened it up on iPlayer; in this scene she says -- "It's history for them. All decided. They think this future is real. They don't know it's still up to you. Go on, ask them -- ask them what you need to know."

Point still stands; this is nothing more than the manipulating hand of The Moment's conscience doing what it opened the windows in time to do - to manipulate him to another decision other than the one in mind when he stole her. She's encouraging him to change his thinking, but it really doesn't make an argument for if the guilt they feel is genuine or not. At this point, they still think they killed everyone. But they didn't. But if the War Doctor doesn't see them in this state, he wouldn't hesitate for the moment necessary for the others to show up and save him. It's like Blink, I think. It's circular.

Bingo. You have it in one.

Everything happened as it always had. Nothing about this changed time. Gallifrey went, the Daleks (mostly) were destroyed. The Doctor, and the universe, thought Gallifrey burned, but it turns out much later that it didn't.

Nothing was rewritten. This was how it always happened, how it was always going to happen.

Pre-destination paradox.

 

[Tizoc]

Hmmm....

Ya know I rather like the grey rubber suit Cybermen look.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

OG Cybermen are best Cybermen. They look kinda silly now but they still best express the body horror of the Mondasians desperate bid for survival more than any other design. They're supposed to be people with these medical apparatuses strapped to themselves, not brains in clanky robot bodies.

 

[Zeppu]

Just opened it up on iPlayer; in this scene she says -- "It's history for them. All decided. They think this future is real. They don't know it's still up to you. Go on, ask them -- ask them what you need to know."

Point still stands; this is nothing more than the manipulating hand of The Moment's conscience doing what it opened the windows in time to do - to manipulate him to another decision other than the one in mind when he stole her. She's encouraging him to change his thinking, but it really doesn't make an argument for if the guilt they feel is genuine or not. At this point, they still think they killed everyone. But they didn't. But if the War Doctor doesn't see them in this state, he wouldn't hesitate for the moment necessary for the others to show up and save him. It's like Blink, I think. It's circular.

Agreed.

The Moment has incredible powers, probably more so than the TARDIS. She opens the holes to the future with a single specific intent. She wants to give hope to the War Doctor. She teases him by calling him Doctor knowing well that he already feels like what he's doing is failing to keep his promise. She knows that the other Doctors will show up while he's hesitating (and allows them in though the Time Lock). She chooses a period of time where Clara, the girl who has seen the Doctor throughout his life, is present.

This is how it always happened. Gallifrey was never destroyed. The Moment is still unused. The Moment never managed to convince the War Doctor to not do it by herself, so she got the War Doctor to inadvertently convince Eleven instead who went back in time to share the burden and eventually stop him. Once Eleven realised he could do a do-over he chose to not destroy Gallifrey.

 

[Tizoc]

@Bunnies- Yup I agree, as funky as they looked, the body horror expression is what makes it stand out.

Oh I like this design too. Will try to find the story they appeared in.

 

[PaulloDEC]

@Bunnies- Yup I agree, as funky as they looked, the body horror expression is what makes it stand out.

Oh I like this design too. Will try to find the story they appeared in.

Those guys are from The Flood, the last Eight Doctor comic strip if memory serves.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I remember the other comic you posted a panel from too. Called The Good Solider, with Ace and the Seventh Doctor. Remember really liking that one.

 

[BaBaRaRa]

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread already (search revealed nothing), but is there a link between the unused Moment, the Galaxy Eater, and the missing galaxy in that Gaiman Cybermen episode?

 

[Vinci]

Agreed.

The Moment has incredible powers, probably more so than the TARDIS. She opens the holes to the future with a single specific intent. She wants to give hope to the War Doctor. She teases him by calling him Doctor knowing well that he already feels like what he's doing is failing to keep his promise. She knows that the other Doctors will show up while he's hesitating (and allows them in though the Time Lock). She chooses a period of time where Clara, the girl who has seen the Doctor throughout his life, is present.

This is how it always happened. Gallifrey was never destroyed. The Moment is still unused. The Moment never managed to convince the War Doctor to not do it by herself, so she got the War Doctor to inadvertently convince Eleven instead who went back in time to share the burden and eventually stop him. Once Eleven realised he could do a do-over he chose to not destroy Gallifrey.

This is how I understood the story as well. We just had an incomplete understanding of history previously.

 

[kaching]

So presumably The Moment is in the hands of the Doctor still, somewhere stashed away on the Tardis?

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread already (search revealed nothing), but is there a link between the unused Moment, the Galaxy Eater, and the missing galaxy in that Gaiman Cybermen episode?

The moment IS the Galaxy Eater?

 

[Mariolee]

So presumably The Moment is in the hands of the Doctor still, somewhere stashed away on the Tardis?

This is what I'm wondering. Did it just disappear? Is it stuck on Gallifrey?

 

[BaBaRaRa]

The moment IS the Galaxy Eater?

I thought that's what they called the Moment; you're making me doubt myself now

 

[Quick]

The Moment is the Galaxy Eater.

 

[Smellycat]

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the special made it clear that if a Doctor meets his future self, he forgets about it.

What about when the Doctor meets his future

Spoiler

dead self

? Because that is what happened in last season's finale.

I guess the doctor only saw

Spoiler

his grave

so that might not count. However, he did forget that he meet the War Doctor on that planet, right?

 

[mclem]

This is what I'm wondering. Did it just disappear? Is it stuck on Gallifrey?

I'm assuming the Doctor doesn't feel he can trust Time Lords with it, but given it's apparently sentient, it'd possibly be against his principles to destroy it. Not that 11 has had direct interactions with the sentient part, of course, but he should be aware it is.

 

[Quick]

It's probably deep inside the TARDIS until the story requires the use of it again.

 

[Mariolee]

What about when the Doctor meets his future

Spoiler

dead self

? Because that is what happened in last season's finale.

I guess the doctor only saw

Spoiler

his grave

so that might not count. However, he did forget that he meet the War Doctor on that planet, right?

But that wasn't the actual War Doctor. Just a representative from his time stream. Like a home video.

 

[infiniteloop]

Went to see it last night at my local cinema, suburban area, north east US.
Screen was sold out (3D), i noticed that they put on another screen at the same time and another 10pm showing, probably did the same with 2D. It's a fairly small place, but it was packed.

Crowd was mostly younger, mid-teens to mid-twenties, groups of friends, some families also with younger kids and a couple old farts like me. I heard one older couple say to a group of kids, "when I was your age, this was unthinkable!" haha

Lots of people in costume and lots of t-shirts and things. The Strax and 3D openings got a big laugh. Tennant obviously got a big cheer, but not as big as Billie.

A lot of the early 10/11 interaction went down well, loudest laugh of the night was for the "timey wimey/i don't know where he picks that stuff up from" line (although I enjoy the bit about Americans rewriting history in their films).

Capladi got a huge cheer and there was audible gasps when Tom Baker said his first line off screen, and got almost a standing ovation when he appeared.

I thought the 3D was well done, I don't usually care for 3D movies; the effects were subtle but gave some depth to the screen.

All in all, a great experience.

 

[RetroMG]

So was the war actually timelocked? I seem to recall it being said that Rassilon and friends were basically reliving the last day of the Time War over and over. How does that jive with what just happened in the 50th?

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

So, as someone finally catching up on the show, when will series 8 start? Early next year? I'm hoping I can find somewhere to watch the Xmas special at home too, any date and time set for it yet on BBC America?

 

[Mariolee]

Went to see it last night at my local cinema, suburban area, north east US.
Screen was sold out (3D), i noticed that they put on another screen at the same time and another 10pm showing, probably did the same with 2D. It's a fairly small place, but it was packed.

Crowd was mostly younger, mid-teens to mid-twenties, groups of friends, some families also with younger kids and a couple old farts like me. I heard one older couple say to a group of kids, "when I was your age, this was unthinkable!" haha

Lots of people in costume and lots of t-shirts and things. The Strax and 3D openings got a big laugh. Tennant obviously got a big cheer, but not as big as Billie.

A lot of the early 10/11 interaction went down well, loudest laugh of the night was for the "timey wimey/i don't know where he picks that stuff up from" line (although I enjoy the bit about Americans rewriting history in their films).

Capladi got a huge cheer and there was audible gasps when Tom Baker said his first line off screen, and got almost a standing ovation when he appeared.

I thought the 3D was well done, I don't usually care for 3D movies; the effects were subtle but gave some depth to the screen.

All in all, a great experience.

Did you get the almost 25 minutes of straight trivia before the actual movie started? As in, the ticket said the movie would start at 7:31, but it didn't actually start til like 8.

Or was that just my theater?

 

[a Master Ninja]

Saw the 50th at a movie theater last night. I wouldn't consider myself a big Doctor Who fan, but thanks to my girlfriend I've managed to watch the Matt Smith episodes and a handful of David Tennant ones too.

Anyway, I found the experience fascinating. All four showings sold out. The majority of people there were either wearing Doctor Who merchandise, which didn't surprise me, but plenty had full-on costumes. It was also a predominately female audience. As you can imagine it was a very lively audience, laughing at all the back and forth between Smith and Tennant. What got the biggest reaction was the appearance of Peter Capaldi's face. The crowd erupted! I never expected so many Whovians in the midwest.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread already (search revealed nothing), but is there a link between the unused Moment, the Galaxy Eater, and the missing galaxy in that Gaiman Cybermen episode?

Nah. The Moment could destroy uber powerful daleks & time lords as well as time lock stuff, and it's hinted that it was created by Omega.

I suspect the bountiful human empire's ordanance was a bit more drab(or a drab as a galaxy bomb can be I guess), as they only had to take out cybermen

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

So, as someone finally catching up on the show, when will series 8 start? Early next year? I'm hoping I can find somewhere to watch the Xmas special at home too, any date and time set for it yet on BBC America?

Doesn't star filming until January, best bet is around September at the earliest.

 

[Mariolee]

This is going to blow your mind.

Spoiler

It's just a random fez.

...that they decided to keep in a top secret museum among the most dangerous art in the world?

 

[RedShift]

So presumably The Moment is in the hands of the Doctor still, somewhere stashed away on the Tardis?

It doesn't seem something to worry about. Seeing as the Moment has godlike powers even greater than the real Bad Wolf (Can anything else in the series get past time locks?) that make sure it is never used.

I mean, not only did it stop WarDoc from using it, it went to ridiculous lengths to both redeem him by giving him the chance to do it and him refusing, and give him all the information he needed (via 10 and 11) to succeed without using it.

I would guess it would be impossible for anyone to actually use the Moment without it making some convoluted plot to prevent them.

 

[hamchan]

Wait I just realized, how come the Doctors had the same sonic screwdriver when the Eleventh should have given his to River by now?

 

[equippedwithtowel]

It doesn't seem something to worry about. Seeing as the Moment has godlike powers even greater than the real Bad Wolf (Can anything else in the series get past time locks?) that make sure it is never used.

Apparently Dalek Caan, but I'm choosing not to read into that.

 

[Sotha Sil]

Wait I just realized, how come the Doctors had the same sonic screwdriver when the Eleventh should have given his to River by now?

Do we know for a fact that DotD happens after Silence in the Library? I get a bit lost in the timey-wimey

edit: got what you meant; I guess Blader's explanation makes the most sense

 

[Blader]

Wait I just realized, how come the Doctors had the same sonic screwdriver when the Eleventh should have given his to River by now?

They all run on the same software, though. So even if something physically happens to the screwdriver - like Ten's blowing up in The Eleventh Hour - a new one would use the same software and still be running those calculations in the background.

 

[Hot Coldman]

...that they decided to keep in a top secret museum among the most dangerous art in the world?

Think about who the curator is.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Wait I just realized, how come the Doctors had the same sonic screwdriver when the Eleventh should have given his to River by now?

It's never said that it's the Eleventh that gives River the sonic, or when he gives River the sonic.

 

[mclem]

...that they decided to keep in a top secret museum among the most dangerous art in the world?

A museum curated by...?

 

[kaching]

It doesn't seem something to worry about.

Not worried, just thought it was an interesting afterthought since it's not addressed in the story and that's probably deliberate so they can lug it out again and go "Surprise!" in some future episode.

 

[infiniteloop]

Did you get the almost 25 minutes of straight trivia before the actual movie started? As in, the ticket said the movie would start at 7:31, but it didn't actually start til like 8.

Or was that just my theater?

Nope mine too. I crushed that trivia.

It was also a predominately female audience..

Yeah, same. Majority young and female.
Lots of Sherlock fans also, obvious overlap in fans. Someone's car number plate was SHRLKD or something lol

 

[mclem]

Yeah, same. Majority young and female.
Lots of Sherlock fans also, obvious overlap in fans. Someone's car number plate was SHRLKD or something lol

Is there any other SF fandom with such a heavy female contingent? I can't really think of one.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'm betting across everyone's screenings/viewing parties/theatrical exhibitions, the one thing in common was that the single biggest crowd pop was for Capaldi, yes?

Is there any other SF fandom with such a heavy female contingent? I can't really think of one.

It's done now, but at the time, I believe Battlestar Galactica had, at one point, more female viewers than male.

 

[mclem]

I'm betting across everyone's screenings/viewing parties/theatrical exhibitions, the one thing in common was that the single biggest crowd pop was for Capaldi, yes?

There was one for the first appearance of Tennant in the preamble (lots of girlish screams, there!), one for Capaldi, and one for Baker. I'm not sure which was biggest, but Capaldi was certainly up there.


Also: Spontaneous applause at the end. In the UK, at least, that's unconventional.

 

[CorvoSol]

Here's the thing that I think's key: the entire plotline is instigated from Hurt's time. A future Doctor isn't influencing him by coming back - he (or rather, The Moment) is actively seeking one out. It's reasonable to assume that The Moment would always do that, because at that stage in the storyline, there's no influence from a different time.

In your imagining of a situation where the War Doctor *did* kill the timelords, what do you imagine the Moment did in that situation? It's still the same Moment with the same conscience. Why didn't it prevent him there?

Because it failed to do so. The Moment couldn't force the War Doctor to make his choice, and the War Doctor chose to kill. Now he didn't. It's not hard to see it happening both ways.

Hell, in The Name of the Doctor, War tells Eleven that he did something in the name of sanity and peace. And this is inside the Doctor's time stream, where Clara is able to interact with the actual different incarnations of the Doctor. So the War Doctor, who should know he didn't do anything if he never did anything claims to have done something.

So it happens both ways. First he does kill, then he doesn't. And the elegance of the second is that it fits perfectly as if he never had.

 

[infiniteloop]

During the Making of thing at the end, there was applause for Colin Baker... control yourselves people...

 

[Quick]

During the Making of thing at the end, there was applause for Colin Baker... control yourselves people...

omg totally my favourite Doctor!

 

[CzarTim]

It doesn't seem something to worry about. Seeing as the Moment has godlike powers even greater than the real Bad Wolf (Can anything else in the series get past time locks?) that make sure it is never used.

I mean, not only did it stop WarDoc from using it, it went to ridiculous lengths to both redeem him by giving him the chance to do it and him refusing, and give him all the information he needed (via 10 and 11) to succeed without using it.

I would guess it would be impossible for anyone to actually use the Moment without it making some convoluted plot to prevent them.

In my mind, this is exactly what the Moment is. It doesn't prevent people from using it, it shows them how to get what they want and then punishes them of it.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I'm betting across everyone's screenings/viewing parties/theatrical exhibitions, the one thing in common was that the single biggest crowd pop was for Capaldi, yes?

Yeah my girlfriend gasped at Capaldi but didn't really know who Baker was...

 

[VistraNorrez]

I'm betting across everyone's screenings/viewing parties/theatrical exhibitions, the one thing in common was that the single biggest crowd pop was for Capaldi, yes?

Capaldi got a big pop, but Tennant was by the far the biggest (and he recieved at least 3). I think Billie Piper's name in the credits got a bigger pop than Capaldi, actually. The crowd was very prone to applause and cheers. Even Colin Baker in the making of after the movie received a good deal of applause and cheering.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Tennant didn't really get a response at my screening, but that's probably because people were expecting him.