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[infiniteloop]

Can't believe they're going to dare desecrate Open All Hours

there's a new open all hours.. and David Jason is Arkwright?

 

[EdgeTurn]

This is how it always happened, yes. History wasn't altered.

I think that the War Doctor did originally deploy the Moment and destroy Gallifrey. If he hadn't, he would not remember doing it - he would just remember the new events with Tennant and Smith. Since that out of sync timeline remained in his memory and created so much grief and guilt for him, it must be the original version of events. Then he had centuries to consider an optional plan that he enacted as Smith, given the opportunity. The Moment had to pull Tennant and Smith from a future timeline where he did in fact press the button, and I believe she says so herself. But now a la Impossible Astronaut, there were able to create a new event that still somewhat jibed with the history of the original timeline (Gallifrey and Dalek fleet gone).

 

[infiniteloop]

I haven't seen the 50th yet, but does it answer this?
Name of the Doctor spoiler:

Spoiler

How does Clara and the Doctor get from where they were at the end of the episode to where they are at the beginning of the 50th?

No, because Moffat.

 

[APZonerunner]

there's a new open all hours.. and David Jason is Arkwright?

He's still playing Granville, who has now taken over the business after Arkwright died.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think that the War Doctor did originally deploy the Moment and destroy Gallifrey. If he hadn't, he would not remember doing it - he would just remember the new events with Tennant and Smith. Since that out of sync timeline remained in his memory and created so much grief and guilt for him, it must be the original version of events. Then he had centuries to consider an optional plan that he enacted as Smith, given the opportunity. The Moment had to pull Tennant and Smith from a future timeline where he did in fact press the button, and I believe she says so herself. But now a la Impossible Astronaut, there were able to create a new event that still somewhat jibed with the history of the original timeline (Gallifrey and Dalek fleet gone).

You know what? You're right. Shit.

redacting my previous post.

edit: reverting my redacting

 

[infiniteloop]

He's still playing Granville, who has now taken over the business after Arkwright died.

ah, ok.

---

How many U.S. viewers tuned in for “Day of the Doctor”?
Enough to break BBC America’s all-time ratings record. A total of 2.4 million viewers watched the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special’s first telecast at 2:50 p.m. ET on Saturday. That total rose to 3.6 million once including the show’s encore. Plus BBC America hosted simulcast screenings in 11 cities. On Twitter, Doctor Who overall generated a total of 1.8 million tweets, beating every show on cable for the week.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/11/25/doctor-who-ratings-day/

I think their previous record was 1.55 million.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I think that the War Doctor did originally deploy the Moment and destroy Gallifrey. If he hadn't, he would not remember doing it - he would just remember the new events with Tennant and Smith. Since that out of sync timeline remained in his memory and created so much grief and guilt for him, it must be the original version of events. Then he had centuries to consider an optional plan that he enacted as Smith, given the opportunity. The Moment had to pull Tennant and Smith from a future timeline where he did in fact press the button, and I believe she says so herself. But now a la Impossible Astronaut, there were able to create a new event that still somewhat jibed with the history of the original timeline (Gallifrey and Dalek fleet gone).

Nope. The only part that the War Doctor completely forgets is from the moment that 10 and 11 enter the barn. He vaguely remembers the whole Zygon escapade all the way up until his hand is over that button (by itself). This is shown because 11 remembers "this is where I enter" when he sees the wormhole initially in the gallery at the beginning. 11 and 10 also joke about how poorly 11 remembers everything and 11 blames it on 10 not paying enough attention during his go around.

Also, The Moment tells the War Doctor that she's showing him who he becomes after one night when he counts all the children he's killed.

Actual Dialogue:

Spoiler

The Moment: "How many children on Gallifrey right now?"
The War Doctor: "I don't know."
The Moment: "One day you will count them. One terrible night. Do you want see what that will turn you into? Come on. Aren't you curious?"
*Wormhole Opens*

11 talks about having planned for years because he has. Because he's always been under the impression that he destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks together. The Doctor never having used The Moment to destroy Gallifrey makes the most sense also when you consider how many Daleks escaped. If The Moment is as powerful as they claim it should have left no survivors at all.

 

[APZonerunner]

I think that the War Doctor did originally deploy the Moment and destroy Gallifrey. If he hadn't, he would not remember doing it - he would just remember the new events with Tennant and Smith. Since that out of sync timeline remained in his memory and created so much grief and guilt for him, it must be the original version of events. Then he had centuries to consider an optional plan that he enacted as Smith, given the opportunity. The Moment had to pull Tennant and Smith from a future timeline where he did in fact press the button, and I believe she says so herself. But now a la Impossible Astronaut, there were able to create a new event that still somewhat jibed with the history of the original timeline (Gallifrey and Dalek fleet gone).

I think you can interpret it either way really. All the dialogue we get from 9/10 about the war is sufficiently vague that if the 9th Doctor comes into existence and his last memory is standing with the moment having decided to use it, he'd fill in the blanks naturally, even if the actual act wasn't there as a memory. The Moment is a volatile weapon, after all, not remembering might be perfectly normal. Point is -- even now, he thinks he did it. He goes off, grief-stricken, and is the man he is when we saw him. He thinks he committed double genocide.

Comparing it to The Impossible Astronaut is a funny one, because Moffat did an outline in Doctor Who Magazine where he goes over that timeline, and there is NEVER a timeline where the Doctor on the lakeside isn't the Tesselecta. It's just the first time we see that event we see it from Amy & Rory's perspective and the second time we see it from the Doctor's. The fact that River breaks it in the middle is largely irrelevant -- after Amy, River & Rory head to the diner in TIA, the Tesselecta will crawl its way to shore. It always did. It always will. They don't change history - or, at least, the Doctor doesn't. River does - and in doing so breaks time. He actually resets it to be what we saw in TIA. We just finally get all the pieces of the puzzle to make it make sense. There's double the proof of this now, as well, as it starts to regenerate and 11 can't any more.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

11 talks about having planned for years because he has. Because he's always been under the impression that he destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks together. The Doctor never having used The Moment to destroy Gallifrey makes the most sense also when you consider how many Daleks escaped. If The Moment is as powerful as they claim it should have left no survivors at all.

Unless I'm forgetting something, the only Daleks that survived the Time War were the lone one from Dalek and the Emperor. Aside from that you just have the Daleks in the void ship (who weren't even in the universe at the time) and those from Journey's End after Caan had broken through the time lock.

 

[CorvoSol]

This is how it always happened, yes. History wasn't altered.

Isn't the entire point that History was altered? I mean, The Moment tells him that he's always just assumed that this moment was a fixed point, but it isn't.

 

[Fiktion]

Nope. The only part that the War Doctor completely forgets is from the moment that 10 and 11 enter the barn. He vaguely remembers the whole Zygon escapade all the way up until his hand is over that button (by itself). This is shown because 11 remembers "this is where I enter" when he sees the wormhole initially in the gallery at the beginning. 11 and 10 also joke about how poorly 11 remembers everything and 11 blames it on 10 not paying enough attention during his go around.

No, no, you're thinking linearly. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey stuff.

EdgeTurn is right.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Unless I'm forgetting something, the only Daleks that survived the Time War were the lone one from Dalek and the Emperor. Aside from that you just have the Daleks in the void ship (who weren't even in the universe at the time) and those from Journey's End after Caan had broken through the time lock.

There's the one from Dalek, The Emperor, the ones in the Void Ship and the ones from Asylum right? Or are the ones from Asylum some off shoot of the Void Ship?

No, no, you're thinking linearly. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey stuff.

EdgeTurn is right.

Good use of quotes but I've watched the movie 3 times in full and the scene with The Moment a fourth time just now. The dialogue is very specific at points and it's easy to miss the specifics of it on the first couple viewings.

 

[APZonerunner]

Isn't the entire point that History was altered? I mean, The Moment tells him that he's always just assumed that this moment was a fixed point, but it isn't.

The moment doesn't comment on fixed points as the War Doctor wouldn't know it is one (he's yet to do it, after all) and she doesn't speak to the others. The only thing approaching that is 10 saying "This is a fixed point, we shouldn't even be here," and 11 responding "Something is obviously letting us through," to which she says "Oh, you clever boys." because they've figured out there's something greater - her - at work.

The Moment has a conscience, and this entire series of events is set into motion because of the conscience of that weapon. Why would it have one now and not before? The impetus to saving Gallifrey is the Moment itself, not any of the Doctors, and the Moment was always present at that moment, in every timeline -- so why would it change? This is a loop.

 

[Blader]

I haven't seen the 50th yet, but does it answer this?
Name of the Doctor spoiler:

Spoiler

How does Clara and the Doctor get from where they were at the end of the episode to where they are at the beginning of the 50th?

They just leave? I never really thought of it being as a mystery as to how the Doctor and Clara get out; they just do. He knows his way down there, no reason he wouldn't know how to get back.

Then time passes, and Clara gets a job while the Doctor flits around doing whatever.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

There's the one from Dalek, The Emperor, the ones in the Void Ship and the ones from Asylum right? Or are the ones from Asylum some off shoot of the Void Ship?

I had kind of blocked Asylum out of my memory. But I guess I generally assumed that after Journey's End and Caan breaking the time lock that there's no reason those Daleks couldn't have returned and spread out across the universe. At that point, there's an actual explanation given for how they came back. (But honestly, I don't really remember most of the details from Asylum, maybe there's something that contradicts that)

The void ship wasn't actually in the universe at the time, so there was never any real issue with them surviving. They escape into the void before the end of the war.

 

[maharg]

I think you can interpret it either way really. All the dialogue we get from 9/10 about the war is sufficiently vague that if the 9th Doctor comes into existence and his last memory is standing with the moment having decided to use it, he'd fill in the blanks naturally, even if the actual act wasn't there as a memory. The Moment is a volatile weapon, after all, not remembering might be perfectly normal. Point is -- even now, he thinks he did it. He goes off, grief-stricken, and is the man he is when we saw him. He thinks he committed double genocide.

Comparing it to The Impossible Astronaut is a funny one, because Moffat did an outline in Doctor Who Magazine where he goes over that timeline, and there is NEVER a timeline where the Doctor on the lakeside isn't the Tesselecta. It's just the first time we see that event we see it from Amy & Rory's perspective and the second time we see it from the Doctor's. The fact that River breaks it in the middle is largely irrelevant -- after Amy, River & Rory head to the diner in TIA, the Tesselecta will crawl its way to shore. It always did. It always will. They don't change history - or, at least, the Doctor doesn't. River does - and in doing so breaks time. He actually resets it to be what we saw in TIA. We just finally get all the pieces of the puzzle to make it make sense.

I don't think it's funny at all, it's the exact same trick. There's no need for a timeline where the Doctor [died|destroyed all the time lords and daleks in fire] because to the universe, and even to his own past self, that's exactly what happened. The fixed moment in time is fulfilled and also a deception. This holds true for both.

And this is why, even as a fan of Moffat and as someone who thinks he gets a bad rap on a few fronts, I'm really hoping he steps down soon. He's treading the same ground more and more and what was once brilliant is now getting derivative (even if it is still hella fun, as it was here). For his next trick, he should bow out while he's on top.

 

[CorvoSol]

The moment doesn't comment on fixed points as the War Doctor wouldn't know it is one (he's yet to do it, after all) and she doesn't speak to the others. The only thing approaching that is 10 saying "This is a fixed point, we shouldn't even be here," and 11 responding "Something is obviously letting us through," to which she says "Oh, you clever boys." because they've figured out there's something greater - her - at work.

The Moment has a conscience, and this entire series of events is set into motion because of the conscience of that weapon. Why would it have one now and not before? The impetus to saving Gallifrey is the Moment itself, not any of the Doctors, and the Moment was always present at that moment, in every timeline -- so why would it change? This is a loop.

No I'm almost certain The Moment does say something along those lines. Maybe not "It's a Fixed Point" but she definitely tells The War Doctor something like that. It comes after the War Doctor asks them why they're afraid to grow up, I think.

 

[APZonerunner]

No, no, you're thinking linearly. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey stuff.

EdgeTurn is right.

The Blink quote is appropriate, but works against the point you & EdgeTurn are making. In Blink the Doctor works from notes that Sally wrote in the future, learning what DVDs she owned to place the extras on, what to say and when, etcetera, in order to warn her in the past. It's time travel determinism in a sense - by being in the past, the Doctor ensures what is happening to Sally does happen, but the Doctor wouldn't be able to do it unless Sally did what she was supposed to in the future. It's a circle, it's ouroboros. The past is never changed in Blink; it's an entirely deterministic story.

The same is true here; the Ninth Doctor doesn't remember the truth behind the Time War, just that he retrieved The Moment and was preparing to use it - and then the next thing he knows he's regenerated and the war is over. What else is he to think? He did it. The guilt he tortures himself with for the next 400 years is the very thing that, when the truth is revealed and he encounters his past self, provides him with the solution.

For things to actually change there would have to be a change at a level before the Doctors enter the scene, as the action that changes things is the decision of The Moment to open the portals into the Doctor's future for him to see. We see nothing in the episode to suggest this doesn't always happen, and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't. The whole point of The Moment is a weapon with a conscience; it would be no good if its conscience wasn't consistent. It always showed him this, and always led to this. The price he pays is memory loss, which leads to survivor's guilt.

I don't think it's funny at all, it's the exact same trick. There's no need for a timeline where the Doctor [died|destroyed all the time lords and daleks in fire] because to the universe, and even to his own past self, that's exactly what happened. The fixed moment in time is fulfilled and also a deception. This holds true for both.

And this is why, even as a fan of Moffat and as someone who thinks he gets a bad rap on a few fronts, I'm really hoping he steps down soon. He's treading the same ground more and more and what was once brilliant is now getting derivative (even if it is still hella fun, as it was here). For his next trick, he should bow out while he's on top.

Agreed entirely on Moffat, yeah. He's been doing it for years now, though. When I say it's funny, my point is using The Impossible Astronaut as an example for why history did change in Day of the Doctor is to misunderstand the nature of that story, because that story isn't about the Doctor changing history, it's about him doing a Houdini act. We just see it in a funny order, and in the middle River accidentally ruins his plans with a plan of her own. He was never going to die there. Exactly the same thing just happened to Gallifrey.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I had kind of blocked Asylum out of my memory. But I guess I generally assumed that after Journey's End and Caan breaking the time lock that there's no reason those Daleks couldn't have returned and spread out across the universe. At that point, there's an actual explanation given for how they came back. (But honestly, I don't really remember most of the details from Asylum, maybe there's something that contradicts that)

The void ship wasn't actually in the universe at the time, so there was never any real issue with them surviving. They escape into the void before the end of the war.

Looking into various wiki's.. it looks like it's assumed that Dalak Caan and the entire force that was created after he broke the timelock was destroyed (though there is no official confirmation that I've found). The Daleks from Asylum have varied characteristics but their origin isn't explained. They just trap the Doctor, Amy, and Rory and ask for help with the Asylum planet.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Nope. The only part that the War Doctor completely forgets is from the moment that 10 and 11 enter the barn. He vaguely remembers the whole Zygon escapade all the way up until his hand is over that button (by itself). This is shown because 11 remembers "this is where I enter" when he sees the wormhole initially in the gallery at the beginning. 11 and 10 also joke about how poorly 11 remembers everything and 11 blames it on 10 not paying enough attention during his go around.

Also, The Moment tells the War Doctor that she's showing him who he becomes after one night when he counts all the children he's killed.

Actual Dialogue:

Spoiler

The Moment: "How many children on Gallifrey right now?"
The War Doctor: "I don't know."
The Moment: "One day you will count them. One terrible night. Do you want see what that will turn you into? Come on. Aren't you curious?"
*Wormhole Opens*

11 talks about having planned for years because he has. Because he's always been under the impression that he destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks together. The Doctor never having used The Moment to destroy Gallifrey makes the most sense also when you consider how many Daleks escaped. If The Moment is as powerful as they claim it should have left no survivors at all.

Okay...alright, now I'm with APZonerunner in that I can see how it's easily read both ways.

But now I'm inclined to go with my initial read, which lines up with Jest's explanation. Maybe the day or two since having seen it is fogging up my memory a little. I'm oldish now.

 

[APZonerunner]

No I'm almost certain The Moment does say something along those lines. Maybe not "It's a Fixed Point" but she definitely tells The War Doctor something like that. It comes after the War Doctor asks them why they're afraid to grow up, I think.

Just opened it up on iPlayer; in this scene she says -- "It's history for them. All decided. They think this future is real. They don't know it's still up to you. Go on, ask them -- ask them what you need to know."

Point still stands; this is nothing more than the manipulating hand of The Moment's conscience doing what it opened the windows in time to do - to manipulate him to another decision other than the one in mind when he stole her. She's encouraging him to change his thinking, but it really doesn't make an argument for if the guilt they feel is genuine or not. At this point, they still think they killed everyone. But they didn't. But if the War Doctor doesn't see them in this state, he wouldn't hesitate for the moment necessary for the others to show up and save him. It's like Blink, I think. It's circular.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Oh man, what a payout. As someone who just got into the show a few months back and marathoned series 1-7 seeing Day of the Doctor in theaters in 3D was phenomenal. The 3D was great, the story fit together better than I expected, and I loved it overall. So many feels.

 

[Ashodin]

The Blink quote is appropriate, but works against the point you & EdgeTurn are making. In Blink the Doctor works from notes that Sally wrote in the future, learning what DVDs she owned to place the extras on, what to say and when, etcetera, in order to warn her in the past. It's time travel determinism in a sense - by being in the past, the Doctor ensures what is happening to Sally does happen, but the Doctor wouldn't be able to do it unless Sally did what she was supposed to in the future. It's a circle, it's ouroboros. The past is never changed in Blink; it's an entirely deterministic story.

The same is true here; the Ninth Doctor doesn't remember the truth behind the Time War, just that he retrieved The Moment and was preparing to use it - and then the next thing he knows he's regenerated and the war is over. What else is he to think? He did it. The guilt he tortures himself with for the next 400 years is the very thing that, when the truth is revealed and he encounters his past self, provides him with the solution.

For things to actually change there would have to be a change at a level before the Doctors enter the scene, as the action that changes things is the decision of The Moment to open the portals into the Doctor's future for him to see. We see nothing in the episode to suggest this doesn't always happen, and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't. The whole point of The Moment is a weapon with a conscience; it would be no good if its conscience wasn't consistent. It always showed him this, and always led to this. The price he pays is memory loss, which leads to survivor's guilt.

I love this. I was thinking about it the other day, and I came to the same conclusion. Everything has already happened up until now the way you saw it in DoTD, we just never saw the actual truth. The Doctor believes he did it, has the guilt of doing it, and the Moment makes him believe he will have done it. This gets the Doctor to listen to his conscience (three times!) to do what is right.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Just opened it up on iPlayer; in this scene she says -- "It's history for them. All decided. They think this future is real. They don't know it's still up to you. Go on, ask them -- ask them what you need to know."

Point still stands; this is nothing more than the manipulating hand of The Moment's conscience doing what it opened the windows in time to do - to manipulate him to another decision other than the one in mind when he stole her. She's encouraging him to change his thinking, but it really doesn't make an argument for if the guilt they feel is genuine or not. At this point, they still think they killed everyone. But they didn't. But if the War Doctor doesn't see them in this state, he wouldn't hesitate for the moment necessary for the others to show up and save him. It's like Blink, I think. It's circular.

It's definitely circular and The Moment is definitely manipulating the War Doctor the entire time. Nearly everytime he decides to do it, she brings up another point or stalls until someone else can enter. Interestingly enough though, the last crucial interruption isn't from The Moment at all.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Also the 3D set up by Smith and Tennant before the episode starts was hilarious.

Anyone have the link to the Xmas preview? It didn't show in theaters.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Also the 3D set up by Smith and Tennant before the episode starts was hilarious.

Anyone have the link to the Xmas preview? It didn't show in theaters.

Just got back from the Ames showing. I think I may have saw you lol

 

[twobear]

I wish he was wearing the tweed jacket for his final episode, it's always been the definitive costume for 11 in my mind.

Yep. The new costume is nowhere near as good

 

[jufonuk]

Doctor Themed Meeting rooms in NBH:
No War Doctor (yet), excuse the pic quality, using my phone.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

They just leave? I never really thought of it being as a mystery as to how the Doctor and Clara get out; they just do. He knows his way down there, no reason he wouldn't know how to get back.

Then time passes, and Clara gets a job while the Doctor flits around doing whatever.

Seriously. I mean the only reason they stop at the end of Name is because they come across the image of the War Doctor. There's nothing to suggest they couldn'tve just kept strolling out afterwards.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Just got back from the Ames showing. I think I may have saw you lol

Ha, really? I was rocking a 8 bit style Doctor shirt and carrying a 3DS.

 

[CorvoSol]

Just opened it up on iPlayer; in this scene she says -- "It's history for them. All decided. They think this future is real. They don't know it's still up to you. Go on, ask them -- ask them what you need to know."

Point still stands; this is nothing more than the manipulating hand of The Moment's conscience doing what it opened the windows in time to do - to manipulate him to another decision other than the one in mind when he stole her. She's encouraging him to change his thinking, but it really doesn't make an argument for if the guilt they feel is genuine or not. At this point, they still think they killed everyone. But they didn't. But if the War Doctor doesn't see them in this state, he wouldn't hesitate for the moment necessary for the others to show up and save him. It's like Blink, I think. It's circular.

It still looks like both to me. He did kill them, but now he didn't. That's what time travel does.

 

[ultron87]

Just got back from seeing it at the theater. I really liked it.

I'm glad they just used the Time War as the beginning and end while having the middle be the more conventional story with the Zygons. The War is a very cool idea and all, but it doesn't quite live up to the imagination when they are just showing it as Daleks shooting blue lasers at Time Lord space marines who fire red lasers. It really didn't match up with descriptions of the whole universe burning. So focusing the entire episode there would've been a mistake. They honestly probably showed too much of it.

The 3D was worth it just for the Smith/Tenant 3d pre show thing.

I'm really gonna miss Matt Smith. This is my first Doctor transition as a live viewer!

 

[Lynd7]

Just got back from seeing it at the theater. I really liked it.

I'm glad they just used the Time War as the beginning and end while having the middle be the more conventional story with the Zygons. The War is a very cool idea and all, but it doesn't quite live up to the imagination when they are just showing it as Daleks shooting blue lasers at Time Lord space marines who fire red lasers. It really didn't match up with descriptions of the whole universe burning. So focusing the entire episode there would've been a mistake. They honestly probably showed too much of it.

The 3D was worth it just for the Smith/Tenant 3d pre show thing.

I'm really gonna miss Matt Smith. This is my first Doctor transition as a live viewer!

Well, it was only the very last day of the Time War, it had been going on for a very long time already.

 

[Savitar]

Yeah all the crazy stuff had already happened, seemed like the Daleks were left with nothing but to go all out against their enemies themselves and the Time Lords having exhausted every forbidden massive weapon except for the Moment itself which the Doctor stole at the end.

So there was some massive massive stuff we can only imagine....which in the end may be better since our imaginations likely can come up with things the show would be unable to do due to budget constraints.

 

[munchie64]

Looking into various wiki's.. it looks like it's assumed that Dalak Caan and the entire force that was created after he broke the timelock was destroyed (though there is no official confirmation that I've found). The Daleks from Asylum have varied characteristics but their origin isn't explained. They just trap the Doctor, Amy, and Rory and ask for help with the Asylum planet.

You guys seem to be forgetting the New Dalek Paradigm from Victory of the Daleks.

They came from Davros newly created Dalek army from Journey's End, jumping to WWII to escape the Meta-Crisis Doctor destroying them all. BUT because they were created from Davros the Dalek creation thingy (can't remember the name of it) didn't recognise them as Dalek's so they couldn't create more, so they came up with that complicated plot with the robot doctor and all that shit.
All Dalek's appearing after that are almost certainly offshoots of what was created in that episode. Including Asylum.

It still looks like both to me. He did kill them, but now he didn't. That's what time travel does.

But why did he kill them the first time around. What was different between the first time and this time?

 

[Fiktion]

But why did he kill them the first time around. What was different between the first time and this time?

The timeline the past seasons took place in, and the timeline The Moment showed the War Doctor was "the future he needed to see." It was the future where he did destroy everything. The 10th and 11th knew they were changing history, and remember time can be rewritten. That's been a big part of the series and that's exactly what happened here. The other interpretation implies inflexible predestination, which goes against everything the episode (and the series) is about. The whole point was the Doctor refusing to accept that even his darkest day could not be changed. If you decide that his darkest day was never actually dark, that ruins the whole point!

 

[terrdactycalsrock]

Yep. The new costume is nowhere near as good

I echo this sentiment. I once read that Matt Smith wanted to portray the doctor as a scholar, a bumbling scholar. I never realized it but the tweed jacket really sold that idea

 

[Mariolee]

Just saw it in theaters. Pretty much everything outside of the movie itself was pretty bad. They had 20 minutes just of trivia which was awful, not enough seats, and all the food was overpriced. Other than that the fans were great and it was really fun.

 

[Mariolee]

Also, how did the Fez get into the museum? Is it the same fez before, cycling over and over again? Wouldn't it get worn down?

I know, Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey.

 

[Jest Chillin]

You guys seem to be forgetting the New Dalek Paradigm from Victory of the Daleks.

They came from Davros newly created Dalek army from Journey's End, jumping to WWII to escape the Meta-Crisis Doctor destroying them all. BUT because they were created from Davros the Dalek creation thingy (can't remember the name of it) didn't recognise them as Dalek's so they couldn't create more, so they came up with that complicated plot with the robot doctor and all that shit.
All Dalek's appearing after that are almost certainly offshoots of what was created in that episode. Including Asylum.

Ahh ok. The ones that jumped to WW2 is the part I was forgetting. Good catch.

The timeline the past seasons took place in, and the timeline The Moment showed the War Doctor was "the future he needed to see." It was the future where he did destroy everything. The 10th and 11th knew they were changing history, and remember time can be rewritten. That's been a big part of the series and that's exactly what happened here. The other interpretation implies inflexible predestination, which goes against everything the episode (and the series) is about. The whole point was the Doctor refusing to accept that his darkest day could not be changed. If you decide that his darkest day was never actually dark, that ruins the whole point!

I really don't see how your theory here works. The Moment always has a conscience. This is beyond the control of any of the Doctors. Which means The Moment would always show the War Doctor 10 and 11 as we know them (the one who regrets and the one who forgets). Which again always leads them to the conclusion we've reached.

Yes, history can be changed unless that history is a fixed point. Everytime we've seen a fixed point and The Doctor tries to change it, it fails. This means that just like at Lake Silencio, the fate of Gallifrey can never be changed. To change it would bring about the destruction of reality (as what was stated to be the fate in The Impossible Astronaut had the Doctor and River not touched and fixed the timeline).

 

[munchie64]

The timeline the past seasons took place in, and the timeline The Moment showed the War Doctor was "the future he needed to see." It was the future where he did destroy everything. The 10th and 11th knew they were changing history, and remember time can be rewritten. That's been a big part of the series and that's exactly what happened here. The other interpretation implies inflexible predestination, which goes against everything the episode (and the series) is about. The whole point was the Doctor refusing to accept that even his darkest day could not be changed. If you decide that his darkest day was never actually dark, that ruins the whole point!

I meant more from a narrative stand point then a out of show one. Yes you could argue that it takes away from the aftermath but I don't believe it does personally, so I guess that's one reason why I think the way I do about it. Anyway what I'm arguing is:

Why was the first time he went into the barn, opened up the moment and started fiddling around with it different then the time we saw? The moment still had a conscious, the moment still would have reality warping powers, and it still would've appeared as Rose. Why would he decide to do it if the moment would still have been trying stop him?

 

[Smellycat]

Nope. The only part that the War Doctor completely forgets is from the moment that 10 and 11 enter the barn. He vaguely remembers the whole Zygon escapade all the way up until his hand is over that button (by itself). This is shown because 11 remembers "this is where I enter" when he sees the wormhole initially in the gallery at the beginning. 11 and 10 also joke about how poorly 11 remembers everything and 11 blames it on 10 not paying enough attention during his go around.

Also, The Moment tells the War Doctor that she's showing him who he becomes after one night when he counts all the children he's killed.

Actual Dialogue:

Spoiler

The Moment: "How many children on Gallifrey right now?"
The War Doctor: "I don't know."
The Moment: "One day you will count them. One terrible night. Do you want see what that will turn you into? Come on. Aren't you curious?"
*Wormhole Opens*

11 talks about having planned for years because he has. Because he's always been under the impression that he destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks together. The Doctor never having used The Moment to destroy Gallifrey makes the most sense also when you consider how many Daleks escaped. If The Moment is as powerful as they claim it should have left no survivors at all.

This is how I view it too. I was trying to explain it to someone else, and as other users have pointed out, a key fact is that the moment has always had a conscience.


Edit:

I just thought of something. If this theory is correct and history was never rewritten then how can we explain all 13 doctors coming together to save the planet?

If they saved the planet then wouldn't all doctors remember being part of the War, even if they came before the War Doctor? Or did they lose memory of the event just like the War Doctor?

 

[munchie64]

I just thought of something. If this theory is correct and history was never rewritten then how can we explain all 13 doctors coming together to save the planet?

If they saved the planet then wouldn't all doctors remember being part of the War, even if they came before the War Doctor? Or did they lose memory of the event just like the War Doctor?

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the special made it clear that if a Doctor meets his future self, he forgets about it.

 

[fireside]

Oh Matt, those trousers are hideous.

Eleven's outfit has gotten progressively worse since series 5, so it's only fitting that his final appearance ends with the biggest sartorial disaster.

 

[PaulloDEC]

Eleven's outfit has gotten progressively worse since series 5, so it's only fitting that his final appearance ends with the biggest sartorial disaster.

I thought the leap from shabby tweed to classy tweed was quite nice, but I've never liked the S7 outfit much. Bit too "generic Doctor" for my tastes.

 

[M.Bluth]

this one:

Isn't that just his outfit from last year's xmas special? The colors are off making his trousers look brighter than they were on film last year.

 

[Savitar]

Also, how did the Fez get into the museum? Is it the same fez before, cycling over and over again? Wouldn't it get worn down?

I know, Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey.

This is going to blow your mind.

Spoiler

It's just a random fez.

 

[Lynd7]

Just got back from a cinema showing, seeing it again made it even better. The plot definitely flows and works well.

 

[mclem]

Also the 3D set up by Smith and Tennant before the episode starts was hilarious.

Yeah, I'm hoping the Strax intro and that shows up *somewhere*. DVD extra?

 

[Exterminieren]

How's this for a headline?
‘Doctor Who’ Claims Victory Over ‘The Hunger Games: Catching Fire’