I agree. It really is the peak of his character. And despite what people may think of the drawn out departure good bye sequence, I think that also fits the character really well. He had become way too attached, too human. Regeneration was no consolation for him, in his mind he might as well have died right there and it would've been all the same to him.
Doctor Who Series 8 |OT| We've fucking time-travelled, yes?
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acheron_xl
Member
It's so un-Doctor-y to me. That scene grates a bit. Though the Vanity Doctor would be the one to throw a temper tantrum about that shit.
For my money, the single most powerfully acted scene in the show's history is Catherine Tate in Turn Left just before she's sent back in time. Her terror is so palpable. It's a stunning scene. Not even Rose could kill it.
Exterminieren
Banned
The most powerful scene in New Who is Eleven by Amelia's bed in The Big Bang. No flash, no screaming or weeping, just an old man full of satisfied regrets. Smith is astonishingly good in that.
Yeah, that's one of the major scenes people have in mind when they praise Smith as being an old man in a young body. You could really feel all the years he spend in the Tardis in that scene. Love it. They tried giving him similar speeches after that. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. But that Big Bang scene really was Smith at his best. It's one of those scenes where it's fun imagining other Doctors doing it.
SigmasonicX
Member
One thing to know about the long goodbye is that it was a goodbye for practically everyone involved with the series. None of the characters that the Doctor says goodbye to ever appear in the series again; the lead director is different; the producers are different; etc.
Wait, according to the schedule on http://guide.doctorwhonews.net/ the premiere airs on the 17th on BBC America, five days before the BBC 1 premiere. That can't be right, can it?
It's not right, the commercials on BBC America say it's going to air on the 23rd.
Jest Chillin
Member
This is probably confusion BBCA having scheduled their week long Doctor Who Takeover event leading up to the premiere.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Yeah....and I guess hated is a strong word. I didn't hate it, per se. It was simply that the longer it went on, the more oomph was taken out of his great "death" scene with Wilfred. In concept and such I liked him saying goodbye.
By the way, is there any particular reason that so many on the creative team left at this point? I'm hyper-sensitive to spoilers sometimes, and am afraid to google.
It's definitely exciting to see a really cool fan-work becoming the inspiration for the actual show. I can't imagine how thrilled that guy must be about all this.
Regarding BBC Wales Graphics, I really just meant their skills in general. They've done some nice work on the regular VFX every now and then, but this seems like another big step up.
APZonerunner
Member
Yeah, definitely this. Catherine's performance there is the finest Doctor Who has EVER seen, IMO, even the old show.
If we're talking Vanity Doctor, I think Tenannt's scene in the cafe is actually better than his raging against the dying of the light scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rn77V1tG38 Such a magnificent performance. Cribbins, too. Moffat did accidentally add something to that scene, though - in a sense, it can now in hindsight be viewed as the Doctor raging about going into his last life, too.
Mainly, though, I like to think it's about how RTD structured his series as well as the overall vanity of Tennant's Doctor, which was instilled by having Rose and Martha both worship him. Tennant's Doctor is, without doubt, the shortest-living in terms of actual days/years. Smith is actually the longest now, which is interesting.
Every other one lives for a couple hundred years, or at least a human-ish lifespan, a few decades. The tenth Doctor lives for five years, the series makes it plain... the justification is there. I think that really gives reason to why he rages, to be honest. Of course Smith regenerates triumphantly; he's lived for hundreds of years, longer than any other life, AND he's just dodged absolute death, so of course he's happy... whereas I like to think Tennant's Doctor really feels his time comes too soon.
Or to put it another way, d'you imagine that when in Day of the Doctor he learns that Eleven is 400 years older, he thinks that he'd only make up six months of those years? Eccleston quite possibly/probably has a similarly short life span (though we'll never truly know), but the difference there is that Eccleston's Doctor has a death wish from the word go. He wants to sacrifice and die, he thinks he deserves it. Tennant's Doctor has things to live for. Or... he does, but then every time he finds them, they're ripped from him.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Wasn't there gonna be a Doctor Who general |OT| for all things not Series 8?
I agree with all of this.
I agree with all of this.
Still working on that. The links you provided me in the Pre-Series 8 threads are helpful, but I don't quite know how to put it all together.
APZonerunner
Member
Do we really want to split ourselves like that? We're not exactly a massive community/huge post count as it is, I always think it's nuts to split it further.. and we do get LTTP threads from time to time anyway, I can see three of them from the last six months alone in my subscriptions (I pretty much auto-subscribe to WhoGAF threads).
While The End of Time is up for discussion a bit, I will say that the really stupid damn cliffhanger in that episode "I'm everybody... and everybody in the world is me!" with John Simm laughing and pointing at himself and snapping his fingers, and the awful Master Race pun... it's just still utterly magnificent to me. Doctor Who at it's most gloriously stupid. I don't really want proper sci-fi from Doctor Who, not most of the time. I adore that cliffhanger, even without the Time Lords bit. I also remember it really fondly as despite the fact that they did public filming with extras in creepy realistic John Simm grinning masks, that didn't leak. The Time Lord stuff did, but that cliffhanger was a complete surprise.
Probably blasphemy to many.
While The End of Time is up for discussion a bit, I will say that the really stupid damn cliffhanger in that episode "I'm everybody... and everybody in the world is me!" with John Simm laughing and pointing at himself and snapping his fingers, and the awful Master Race pun... it's just still utterly magnificent to me. Doctor Who at it's most gloriously stupid. I don't really want proper sci-fi from Doctor Who, not most of the time. I adore that cliffhanger, even without the Time Lords bit. I also remember it really fondly as despite the fact that they did public filming with extras in creepy realistic John Simm grinning masks, that didn't leak. The Time Lord stuff did, but that cliffhanger was a complete surprise.
Probably blasphemy to many.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Jeez. Way to make a person feel unwanted
ClivePwned
Member
The nub is, the non-season 8 thread won't get as much use as this thread, but these threads prove there are huge numbers of people who watch Doctor Who on netflix, which probably won't have season 8 for a while (though Amazon Prime in the US seems to get Who sooner). So guys just catching up to the show aren't really going to be able to talk much about whether or Rose, Martha, Clara, Amy or Donna was worse, how utterly shit End of Time was (see what I did there) or whether Bernard Cribbins is playing someone genetically linked to Tom from Daleks: Invasion Earth 2150 AD.
So yeah a second thread wouldn't hurt. And more places to talk Who is always a good thing. Maybe we need an agreement not to talk about season 8 in the other thread and keep it relatively spoiler free. It didn't always work for GoT.
anywho
Here's Leela stroking the TARDIS console. Possibly NSFW
So yeah a second thread wouldn't hurt. And more places to talk Who is always a good thing. Maybe we need an agreement not to talk about season 8 in the other thread and keep it relatively spoiler free. It didn't always work for GoT.
anywho
Here's Leela stroking the TARDIS console. Possibly NSFW
I thought Tennant's scene in the cafe was a little too...obvious? Maybe that's not the right word, but how he acts in that scene seems like how I'd expect him to say those things and react to the entire prospect of regeneration.
What makes the four knocks scene so much more stunning, for me at least, is how absolutely frank he is about it. All the selfish little things he must be thinking over what he has to die over, that he has to say because it IS unfair, and as angry as he is about it he's even more angry that he's angry at all. He wants to be the hero, but he hates having to play the hero in this situation, but hates even more that he hates being the hero here. I can see why it might rub some people the wrong way, but for me it's the most pure moment of honesty I've seen out of the Doctor -- and it was completely unexpected as such.
I think Matt in Time of the Doctor would be my runner-up. Particularly the scene of 2,000-year-old Eleven forgetting who he's speaking to, needing Clara's help in pulling apart whatever that fortune thing was...just all very sad and pulled off beautifully. For as messy as the script is, I think it's Matt's strongest performance.
What makes the four knocks scene so much more stunning, for me at least, is how absolutely frank he is about it. All the selfish little things he must be thinking over what he has to die over, that he has to say because it IS unfair, and as angry as he is about it he's even more angry that he's angry at all. He wants to be the hero, but he hates having to play the hero in this situation, but hates even more that he hates being the hero here. I can see why it might rub some people the wrong way, but for me it's the most pure moment of honesty I've seen out of the Doctor -- and it was completely unexpected as such.
I think Matt in Time of the Doctor would be my runner-up. Particularly the scene of 2,000-year-old Eleven forgetting who he's speaking to, needing Clara's help in pulling apart whatever that fortune thing was...just all very sad and pulled off beautifully. For as messy as the script is, I think it's Matt's strongest performance.
APZonerunner
Member
I just feel like the last two times we've split this way (one for the script leaks, one when S7 hadn't finished transmission but info about the 50th was steadily coming out even officially via the BBC and people were concerned about spoilers) we've ended up with a short burst of double-activity then the non-current/major thread dropping like a stone to never be heard from again after about a fortnight, with the discussion all leaking back to the main, most often bumped thread once it sinks far enough.
I personally never quite feel like Matt ever hits the highs he did in Series 5 again afterwards, but even then, the astonishing thing about him is that there are just these earth shattering moments from him. There's a few in Name of the Doctor, and then in Time of the Doctor everything from him in the last fifteen minutes or so is just utterly incredible.
One of the most impressive things for me about Matt was his range. He could be funny, sad, intimidating, young, or ancient - and it was all, by and large, perfectly believable. And man, could he convey age. The scene you're taking about, the one in the Pandorica before lift-off... He really felt like some old, gentle grandfather.
It was always astonishing to me how different real-life Matt is to his portrayal of the Doctor. In interviews he's just a slighty awkward 20-something bloke, someone who isn't quite at home in a talkshow setting. Don't get me wrong, he's funny and friendly, but you'd never expect the confident and talented performances he could give on Who if you just saw him in those interviews. Compare that to all the previous Doctors, whose real-life personas seem much closer to what they showed on the show. Tom Baker, for instance, is always Tom Baker, whether he's running around on Skaro or sitting on Have I Got News For You talking about how much he hates religion.
I'm really curious to see if Matt Smith gets the chance to show his talents again in the near future. There's a very talented actor hidden in there, given the right material.
On Capaldi: My girlfriend just insisted we'd watch 1 random minute of the leaked work print of the first episode. She's just seen a couple of episodes - some that she watched with some friends who're really into it and a couple that I've shown her, including the 50th special and the christmas special. We weren't dating before then, but she's going to follow the show with me, and even she's crazy hyped about it (although, granted, mostly because I told her it's by the same people who did Sherlock). I wanted to remain relatively unspoiled, but teenage-me would kick myself if I ever stopped a future girlfriend in her geeky desires.
My impressions of the random minute (well, scene):
Just by chance we hit on what I expect will be one of the better scenes of the episode: the one where the Doctor is going through the garbage and realizes - with the help of a friendly hobo - that he's Scottish. Absolutely great performance by Capaldi, and hilarious as well. It's probably the Victorian setting, but it gave me a Discworld vibe. Can't wait to see more, but I can wait for the finished version. He's definitely still in crazed post-regeneration mode in that scene, but I got a strong Tom Baker vibe from his performance. Slightly philosophical in the way he speaks, and a bit detached from those around him, while at the same time strangely close to a random stranger he just met (the way he interacted with the hobo reminded me of Tom Baker's interactions with random, nameless guards, or the butler in City of Death). Obviously a bit of a bullshit analysis as I've just seen one scene of an unfinished episode without context, but hey, I can't help myself when it comes to Who.
For those who don't want to see the spoiler: what I saw was very, very promising.
It's also the perfect culmination of the conflict at the heart of Tennant's Doctor, someone torn between his hubris and his compassion. On the one hand, he loved the idea of himself as the hero and the wandering god, and took genuine pleasure from helping others, yet hated how it isolated him and turned him into a killer, giving him a huge streak of insecurity about whether he was actually as good and kind as he wanted to be. After learning the prophecy of his death, he reacts in the way an egotist would, refusing to believe that he has to play by the rules even if it means destroying the pattern of history to save himself. Yet in his final moments, forced to choose between himself and the old man (who gives him the perfect excuse not to save him by saying he's already lived a long life), ultimately it's his compassion which wins out and he finally proves to be a good man by sacrificing the one thing he thought meant more to him than anything else - himself. Whatever else is wrong with the episode - and there's plenty - it's a beautiful piece of writing by RTD, both as a narrative twist and a final bow for an extremely well defined character. Tennant's performance is outstanding too, and I say that as someone often critical of his performances in later years.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
He could be most of those things, but I never particularly thought he was good at playing anger. His big dramatic "I am the Doctor and now I'm pissed off" speeches always fell flat for me, which is why I was disappointed that they kept trying to give them to him. He worked so much better when he was the awkward but omnicompetent guy trying desperately to make his earth friends think that he's cool. Smith's most interesting spin on the Doctor was playing him as insecure and really needing Amy more than she needed him, and the times that that conflict was pushed to the relative forefront were usually the times that I was most interested. But whenever he was being "badass" I just kind of mentally tuned out.
It was a pretty effective contrast to Tennnant, since Tennant's more "human" Doctor was therefore much more able to feel like he was just hanging out with good friends almost as equals (Martha and Donna mostly)
Wilf is the best, full stop. The only reason he doesn't top all the best companion lists is because some people don't count him as a companion. At least, that's how I justify so many people being WRONG.
Although Eleven does appear with Sarah-Jane again, of course. Just not in Doctor Who.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Come on Moffat, bring Jack Harness back.
There was an intent, I believe, to make a clean break. RTD had his people, and I think many of them wanted to move on at the same time he did (He was going, Julie Gardner was going, and those were by some margin the biggest two people behind the show). So they constructed a fairly final conclusion and left Moffat a pretty clean slate to work with.
It does make the transition to Moffat's era almost feel like a different show. Still very much Who, but with a very different feel.
Jeez. Way to make a person feel unwanted
At the rate you're going, you'll have caught up by the time we get there, or be very close anyway.
acheron_xl
Member
I think Matt was really good at intense, smoldery anger. Like in The Doctor's Wife or A Good Man Goes To War. I don't know that I bought his overblown, shouty anger as much.
paradox121
Member
Agreed. Even if I didn't totally buy Matt being shouty angry I at least appreciated that he had a range of anger. I loved when he would just seethe.
The Colonel Runaway thing is probably one of my favourite scenes of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUZ50cAk_Lk
I love that he just slightly slips and becomes manipulative in a negative fashion.
And a scene that gets mostly forgotten because its in a fairly bland episode is his meeting with Rosanna in Vampires in Venice:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:DOCTOR_WHO_CLIP_16
The way he delivers 'Take your hands off me...Carlo' is so damn good. He has that slightly petulant attitude as if he really is superior, without being all Time Lord Victorious.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
Since there's no Doctor Who general thread up yet, I'll just post this here.
I'm trying to get caught up on the show before S8 starts. I fell off after The Angels Take Manhattan and didn't come back until the 50th. I suppose I just got really tired of Matt's Doctor. Honestly I never planned on watching 7-B but I figure I should at least have Clara's backstory so I'm prepared for S8. I'm watching The Snowmen now because I know that's necessary, but what else is absolutely essential viewing just in case I decide I don't want to watch all of 7-B? I'm sure The Name of the Doctor is, but is anything else?
I'm trying to get caught up on the show before S8 starts. I fell off after The Angels Take Manhattan and didn't come back until the 50th. I suppose I just got really tired of Matt's Doctor. Honestly I never planned on watching 7-B but I figure I should at least have Clara's backstory so I'm prepared for S8. I'm watching The Snowmen now because I know that's necessary, but what else is absolutely essential viewing just in case I decide I don't want to watch all of 7-B? I'm sure The Name of the Doctor is, but is anything else?
Anyone watching the Seoul Q&A at the moment? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mePjUAdgNDY) I'm not sure what the MC is doing but I hope it stops soon.
Yep, watching it, Capaldi and Coleman have been on for a few minutes. I love the awkwardness of both actors having the MC on one side and the translator behind them. I don't know who thought that would be a good idea.
... And they barely get to speak!
The whole thing seems totally bizarre. I can't tell whether Capaldi is leaning more towards
or
Z
ZombieFred
Unconfirmed Member
What are the chances of ever seeing The Master back in the show? I know Moffat has hated the whole Timelords in the past so I don't know where he stands with him, but I think The Master would make a great return to rival the new Doctor, in my opinion.
Only a matter of time. They've always brought him back in the past, and they'll always bring him back in the future.
Also, why did they hire a translator when the MC is obviously very comfortable with English and could just ask the questions in English right after saying them in Korean?
This whole event is so bizarre.
[EDIT] PWAHAHAHAHA, and now they bring in the male idols! So weird.
This whole event is so bizarre.
[EDIT] PWAHAHAHAHA, and now they bring in the male idols! So weird.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Moffat in the last couple of days basically indicated it won't happen on his watch. He think's the masters story is played out and wants to focus on newer villains.
Link
I'd want a more cerebral master if he were to go up against Capaldi. Charles Dance's name has been thrown around but I do genuinely think he'd be the best man for the job.
Exterminieren
Banned
This Q&A sounds even more awkward than the one in Cardiff. Is such a thing even possible?
What happened in Cardiff?
I didn't see the one in Cardiff, but this was definitely one of the strangest Doctor Who related things I've ever seen.
Dr Zhivago
Member
I didn't like that, he came across as unlikeable. Plus it seemed pretty obvious the invitations had come from his future self. Who else would it be?
Davies said pretty much the same
Have to agree with Moff on this one. The old villains are getting pretty played out, particularly the Daleks (although apparently there's a licensing issue with the estate of Terry Nation where they have to be keep being used or else the BBC loses them) and the Cybermen, who weren't particularly interesting when they first returned and have only had diminishing returns ever since. Unless there's some really interesting story which can only be done with an old monster (e.g. the Eccleston episode, Dalek), my preference would be for the show to continue building up new ones. The Ood and the Weeping Angels (which have lost much of their impact thanks to their rules being broken over and over again, but still) are the big success stories, perhaps The Silence too if they'd done anything, it'd be great to see more originals become recurring, in particular if they can be made to feel powerful enough to sustain season arcs like the Daleks and Master can.
After the End of Time, it doesn't make much sense for the Master to be an enemy of the Doctor. Not the way he's always been.
So, unless they're willing to spend time exploring how those events affected him, personally, I wouldn't care for him returning.
StealthGoblin
Banned
I'd quite like a new monster to be created that the Doctor can never really fully 'win' against. Yes the Daleks keep coming back etc, but I'm thinking of a new foe more along the lines where due to their actual unchanging nature, they are a match for him.
I envisage a story set in the future where these creatures have developed a deep understanding of ripples through time. They can, in a sense, feel the flapping of a butterflies wings and can extrapolate that so that they know what will happen in the future.
Therefore the Doctor would have to take several trips to the future, the past and varying instances of that present in order to stop something awful happening. In a way they'd be using the Doctor's ability to change the past and affect the future against him.
The enemies would have built an empire from the information, yet they'd be morally grey. In the Doctors eyes they are vicious, uncaring and cold to extreme levels but to themselves, they are logical, efficient and learned.
I envisage a story set in the future where these creatures have developed a deep understanding of ripples through time. They can, in a sense, feel the flapping of a butterflies wings and can extrapolate that so that they know what will happen in the future.
Therefore the Doctor would have to take several trips to the future, the past and varying instances of that present in order to stop something awful happening. In a way they'd be using the Doctor's ability to change the past and affect the future against him.
The enemies would have built an empire from the information, yet they'd be morally grey. In the Doctors eyes they are vicious, uncaring and cold to extreme levels but to themselves, they are logical, efficient and learned.
Depends how complete the story you need is. You probably ought to include The Bells of St John. Other than that, I don't think anything is crucial. I'd consider adding in Journey to the Centre of the Tardis because it includes a small element that's referred to later on.
That said, while I don't think it's particularly necessary, I'd also include Hide simply because I think it's perhaps the best episode of that run.
I agree that some monsters are overused - particularly the Cybermen and the Daleks. They have to use the Daleks at least once every season to keep the rights sadly, but still. They crop up far more often than in the classics series (apart from perhaps the Daleks during the Hartnell era), and they lose a lot of their effectiveness.
As for other classic monsters returning - most of the 'main' enemies have already done so. I expect to see more of the Ice Warriors and the Zygons in the near future - they've already rebuild those costumes last year and they're both popular classic enemies. The remaining enemies that haven't returned yet are relatively obscure, with most of them not appearing in more than one story. Not that that's a bad thing, but there aren't a lot of obvious choices left. It does make it more exciting when one does show up for me. The ones that I'm sort of expecting are the Sea Devils, the Yeti (although they've already done the Great Intelligence, but Neil Gaiman expressed interest in using them), and perhaps the Rani or Omega. Anything else would be pretty much a shot in the dark.
I like what they did in the 50th anniversary 8th Doctor short - bringing an obscure planet and group of people back, rather than a monster. They don't do that a lot, but it provides a nice link between new and old, and solidifies the Who-universe a bit. Doing it too much would just lead to the Star Wars-effect though, where everything seems to happen on a handful of planets. Still, it's something that I'd like to see them explore a bit more in the future.
As for other classic monsters returning - most of the 'main' enemies have already done so. I expect to see more of the Ice Warriors and the Zygons in the near future - they've already rebuild those costumes last year and they're both popular classic enemies. The remaining enemies that haven't returned yet are relatively obscure, with most of them not appearing in more than one story. Not that that's a bad thing, but there aren't a lot of obvious choices left. It does make it more exciting when one does show up for me. The ones that I'm sort of expecting are the Sea Devils, the Yeti (although they've already done the Great Intelligence, but Neil Gaiman expressed interest in using them), and perhaps the Rani or Omega. Anything else would be pretty much a shot in the dark.
I like what they did in the 50th anniversary 8th Doctor short - bringing an obscure planet and group of people back, rather than a monster. They don't do that a lot, but it provides a nice link between new and old, and solidifies the Who-universe a bit. Doing it too much would just lead to the Star Wars-effect though, where everything seems to happen on a handful of planets. Still, it's something that I'd like to see them explore a bit more in the future.
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