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Does your girlfriend need her birth-control refilled?? TOO BAD!!!!

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human5892 said:
I completely disagree with this. Giving a woman birth control has nothing to do with health risks, and can actually prevent health risks, and health should be the only criteria on which the dispensing of medicine/treatment/surgery/etc. is based, because that's all it's intended to be used for.



Totally agree. Also lets take this slippery slope if a person has HIV does the Pharmacist have the right to deny that customer access to the drugs that they need? Or what if the Pharmacist is morally opposed to serving minorties do they have a right to deny them service because of their beliefs? This is foolishness at it's highest degree. If I were a business owner (CEO) I would have any pharmsist that does that fired ASAP and take the charge when they go to suing me and the company. My 1st priority is to my customers and stockholders.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The vast majority of bans placed these days are temp bans, because vb3 takes the effort out of handling them. A week being the average.

And I didn't ban Pimpwerx for displaying "ignorance"... I banned him for interjecting completely unnecessary flamebait regarding god. We aren't discussing the existence of diety here.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
So you guys would make it mandatory that an ob-gyn perform elective abortions (read: non-emergency) just because he/she happens to be the only such doctor within a 50 mile radius? I don't agree with that. Not trying to put words in your mouths, but the pharmacist issue is, at base (ignoring the fact that the pills can be used for things other than birth control, and that abortion is a much more divisive and forceful issue than bith control), a similar one. However, as I said in my previous posts, due to the great inconvenience it would cause (since you'd presumably have to use the pharmacy more frequently than you'd get abortions), I will admit that the pharmacy issue (in rural areas where an alternative might not be close by) is a troubling one for me, even though I agree in principle with so-called "conscience clauses".


Perhaps-- though it would obviously be attacked by proponents of conscience exemptions for pharmacists as being an inconsistently applied standard-- we should allow it in areas where there are several pharmacists, but not in places where there's only one for a large area. Still, that strikes me as getting too specific, and thus likely wouldn't make sound policy.


I honestly don't know what the answer is, really. In principle, I agree with conscience clauses. However, I also agree that people should not have to be unduly inconvenienced just because someone's beliefs go against their own and that person happens to be in a position of "power" (i.e., is capable of withholding a service or product). I'd almost be inclined to say that it would be reasonable to not have conscience clauses for pharmacists but keep them for nurses/physicians, but then, as before, that would seem to be exclusionary (towards pharmacists) and overly specific, and could thus be easily criticized. Sure, you could just say that people shouldn't become pharmacists if they have such an issue with birth control, but-- again-- that is analogous to saying that somebody shouldn't become an ob-gyn unless they were fine with performing elective abortions; in both cases (the pharmacist and the doctor), the procedure/action in question constitutes but a small fraction of their duties/knowledge/expertise/responsibilities, and so I don't see how saying "don't become one, then" is applicable in either instance.


I'd definitely be open to hearing arguments either way, though, because as I said, it's a tricky issue that requires the needs and rights of various parties to be balanced. In the case of an elective abortion, the one-time inconvenience of driving an hour or two to the next town to have the surgery seems to be comparatively insignificant when weighed against the right of a physician to not be forced to perform a procedure they may view as morally repugnant (rightly or wrongly-- I'm not making a value judgment). However, in the pharmacist's case, the repeated inconvenience of having to drive that same distance every week, or twice a week, and the fact that the birth control issue itself is not as forceful as abortion (meaning that one could have firm beliefs about both of these issues, but I think we'd all agree that performing an abortion has the potential to be much more psychologically damaging/morally repulsive to an opponent of it than filling a birth control prescription is), would seem to indicate that the inconvenience would "outweigh" the pharmacist's right to follow his conscience (or at least more outweigh it than in the case of the abortion). Still, I always hate assigning "weights" to abstract notions, but sometimes it's necessary; whether it's necessary here is for someone far more intelligent than myself to determine. :p


A tricky issue imo. Obviously, the pharmacist in the original poster's article was way out of line, primarily because he refused to either give the prescription back (in which case I would have probably hopped over the counter and taken it :p) or pass it along to a pharmacist who wasn't morally opposed to the notion of birth control. Still, the larger issue remains, and I'd say it's not as cut and dry as the above posters are suggesting.


Also, Tom and Human, I agree that an organization has every right to fire such a person if they object on moral grounds to providing birth control pills, because the employer has their own standards that the employee must agree to when they sign a contract; if the organization decides that they will provide birth control pills, then obviously all employees must adhere to that. However, for a self-employed pharmacist, it's not that clear-cut imo. These large chains that have pharmacies in them (Rite-Aid, Eckert, Duane Reade etc.) don't tend to set up shop in rural Alabama.


The argument about refusing service to minorities strikes me initially as not comparable or relevant, though I'm not about to take the time to think about why. Just my initial impression of that line of reasoning. :)
 
Loki said:
Also, Tom and Human, I agree that an organization has every right to fire such a person if they object on moral grounds to providing birth control pills, because the employer has their own standards that the employee must agree to when they sign a contract; if the organization decides that they will provide birth control pills, then obviously all employees must adhere to that. However, for a self-employed pharmacist, it's not that clear-cut imo. These large chains that have pharmacies in them (Rite-Aid, Eckert, Duane Reade etc.) don't tend to set up shop in rural Alabama.


The argument about refusing service to minorities strikes me initially as not comparable or relevant, though I'm not about to take the time to think about why. Just my initial impression of that line of reasoning. :)


I agree a self-employed pharmacist can serve who and what they want. Don't have a problem with that. And for a someone who needs those sevices then they need to move to a community that serves their needs.

I'll tell you why I think it's relevent, in a slippery slope way. Morals is a subjective as hell term. Anyone can have morals and can be morally opposed to anything at anytime. You show me a list of universially accepted morals and I'll show you a world the doesn't exist. It sets a precedent if person A can be morally opposed to providing service B then Person X can be morally opposed to providing service Y. They are the same thing.
 

lachesis

Member
So.. what next? Gas station owner not selling condoms? ;)

I'm remembering the song from "life of brian" or "meaning of life" - every sperm is sacred... ;)

lachesis
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Tom:

Oh, don't get me wrong-- I understand the implied parallels between the situations, I just don't believe that they're comparable.


If I have time later (or whenever-- exams next week :p), I'll think about why that might be so-- like I said, it was just my initial "hunch" or "impression" regarding that line of reasoning, nothing more thorough than that; so it may turn out that-- upon more detailed examination-- the two situations are comparable. I just think they (traditional conscience clauses versus something like discriminating against minority customers) have several distinguishing features in terms of their philosophical justifications that makes them too different to be lumped together. Also, it should be noted that slippery slope argumentation is a fallacy no matter which "side" of a debate invokes it. :p
 
Loki said:
Tom:

Oh, don't get me wrong-- I understand the implied parallels between the situations, I just don't believe that they're comparable.

Oh ok. I can live with that.


Loki said:
If I have time later (or whenever-- exams next week :p), I'll think about why that might be so-- like I said, it was just my initial "hunch" or "impression" regarding that line of reasoning, nothing more thorough than that; so it may turn out that-- upon more detailed examination-- the two situations are comparable. I just think they (traditional conscience clauses versus something like discriminating against minority customers) have several distinguishing features in terms of their philosophical justifications that makes them too different to be lumped together. Also, it should be noted that slippery slope argumentation is a fallacy no matter which "side" of an debate invokes it. :p

Well let's not take the initial strawman of race and lets use a more realistic situation like HIV medication for example. Chew on that for a while. It's not a too much of a stretch to think that someone who is opposed to providing birth control medication would be opposed to provinding HIV medication.
 

R0GX

Member
I completely disagree with this. Giving a woman birth control has nothing to do with health risks, and can actually prevent health risks, and health should be the only criteria on which the dispensing of medicine/treatment/surgery/etc. is based, because that's all it's intended to be used for.

Actually, there are health risks with taking birth control. Most notably taking birth control and smoking cigarettes greatly increases the risk of blood clots and I've even seen a few patients that have thrown clots while on birth control because of their smoking habit. But really thats just a factoid and beside the main point. Obviously, if the pharmacists in question has ownership of their own pharmacy, then this shouldn't even be debated. Then is just becomes a matter of economics. Perhaps I came on a bit strong by saying "protected under the law" because I do feel that some of you aren't sensitive to the fact that there are millions of people out there that do not agree with abortion or birth control, and by forcing them to dispense a prescription that can lead to abortion is stepping all over their religious beliefs. We do not force the Jehovah Witness's to accept blood transfusions do we?

Personally, I think refusing to dispense birth control (or even not taking a blood transfusion) is silly. But these are my beliefs, and I do not force people to accept them for their own. I say let the woman go to another pharmacist and get her prescription filled, its really not that big of a deal.
 

FoneBone

Member
R0GX said:
Personally, I think refusing to dispense birth control (or even not taking a blood transfusion) is silly. But these are my beliefs, and I do not force people to accept them for their own. I say let the woman go to another pharmacist and get her prescription filled, its really not that big of a deal.
That wasn't the issue... the issue was when the pharmacist refuses to refer the prescription to someone else, as mentioned in the article.
 

R0GX

Member
That wasn't the issue... the issue was when the pharmacist refuses to refer the prescription to someone else, as mentioned in the article.

Yeah, I know this, and if you read my first post you will see that. But some people were arguing that the pharmacist should have to dispense the medication because its their job. Its this line of thought that I disagree with :)
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Tommie Hu$tle said:
Well let's not take the initial strawman of race and lets use a more realistic situation like HIV medication for example. Chew on that for a while. It's not a too much of a stretch to think that someone who is opposed to providing birth control medication would be opposed to provinding HIV medication.

I don't think they would be, necessarily. Obviously, if they knew with 100% certainty that the person acquired HIV through promiscuous sex, perhaps they wouldn't want to dispense the drug, but they don't know that-- it could just as easily have been via blood transfusion or by their spouse cheating on them, contracting the disease, and then bringing the HIV into the marriage.


I see your point, though, and obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere (in terms of which moral beliefs deserve "protection"); for physicians with abortion, I obviously do not believe that they should be forced by law to provide elective abortions if they don't want to. With pharmacists, as I've repeatedly stated, it's a bit more of an ambiguous situation imo. As noted above, we're not even allowed to compel a religious parent to accept a blood transfusion for their child if their kid is going to die; in fact, my pediatrician actually got sued for several million dollars for performing a blood transfusion to save the life of a child despite the parents' religious beliefs. He lost the suit. Now, if we allow parents to follow their beliefs (the child being seen as their charge, as an extension of themselves that they have total legal control over), then how can we hold others to a different standard just because they happen to be in a certain profession?


It's a sticky situation, though admittedly less compelling in the pharmacist's case versus the physician's case. I'm not being dogmatic about it-- like I said, I'm open to arguments on this; I honestly have never given the issue much thought, or else I would've arrived at more firm conclusions. On it's face, however, this is how I see it. :) I just happen to feel that there is at least some legitimate moral argument to be made for conscience clauses; what extent it should be taken to is another matter entirely. I honestly have no idea. :) You should be able to tell that I'm a bit unsure about the justifications and implications of such policies, because if I wasn't, I usually wouldn't be this polite/non-forceful in stating my opinions. ;) :D
 
well that's twice my area has made the news... first for the FIOS Verizon ultra-high speed DSL they just started rolling out here and now this...

good times...
 
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