Well I am talking about regular old Fat Majin Buu fighting dead SSJ3 Goku. Feel that Goku just didn't keep fighting just so the kids had a chance at Buu, but he obvs could have held his own, maybe even won that fight.
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Dragon Ball Manga/Anime |OT| This isn't even our final thread
- Thread starter Kagari
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Well I am talking about regular old Fat Majin Buu fighting dead SSJ3 Goku. Feel that Goku just didn't keep fighting just so the kids had a chance at Buu, but he obvs could have held his own, maybe even won that fight.
Oh, I see what you mean, I was confused at how you were labeling Fat Buu.
To be honest, Goku and Gotenks both could have beaten Fat Buu. Goku even says he probably could have, but wanted the kids to have a chance.
Gotenks could have beaten Fat Buu if he got his act together. Note that regular Gotenks got beaten, but not killed, by Fat Buu. Whereas Fat Buu was able to kill SSJ2s easily. If Gotenks had been more mature from the start and gone SSj3, he could've beaten Fat Buu, since SSj3 Gotenks was about equal with the much, much stronger Super Buu.
Unless I'm remembering REALLY wrong (which is definitely possible lol) I think people are selling Gotenks short a bit. I thought, even though he was a kid with horrible techniques, he was still powerful enough to almost win against Boo. And the only reason he didn't was cause he took to long and powered down, then split.
No, that's what I've been saying.
SSJ3 Gotenks is about equal to Super Buu, but they were kids and didn't have the ability to finish the job.
Ahh I see, yes, I misread a bit. They were about equal.
Yeah, I guess I could move the two alive SSJ3s above Fat Buu, but both Goku and Gotenks have extremely short time limits for these forms, and whatever fight against a Buu that isn't super unbalanced (Vegito, Spirit Bomb) is going to take a looong time while the saiyans burn off parts of Buu.
Then again, Dead SSJ3 was also running against a time limit of being in the regular world, even if the limit wasn't as drastic as Gotenks'. But then again, Dead Goku was hanging around with the Kaiohs, and Kid Buu eventually appears there, so maybe dead SSJ3 Goku could have just cheated around the time limit just by fighting in the otherworld.
In retrospective, it's hilarious that the Old Kaiohshin depowered Goku by returning him to life.
Basically, close power levels don't mean a lot when it comes down to the nitty-gritty of fighting where things can change in a second. SSj2 Vegeta took down SSJ2 Goku with a cheap shot to the back, for example.
The time limit idea was Toriyama's way of injecting a new dramatic element to fights since he'd been doing the "more POWER wins" for 10 years and needed some new angles.
That's also why the Potara fusion, with no time limit, got introduced and then de-introduced so fast. Objectively, there's no reason why Vegetto couldn't have been created by a fusion dance, but by then Toriyama was sick of the time limit idea so he came up with the magic earrings. And then it had to be removed since he needed a dramatic solo Goku fight to finish the series.
I mean, I kinda wish Goku stuck to his word and let the "kids" take care of it. Gohan should have taken buu out, i mean so much of the season followed him. There are a million ways for it to have happened, for ex: a Gohan and Vegeta team up. But I get it.... Goku is THE main character, it always has to be about him. Remember the bojack movie or the many other movies where Goku is dead or something and he shows up as a ghost or whatever to beat who ever? sigh...
Well, yeah, Gohan was SUPPOSED to take over as the hero, but Toriyama admitted he just couldn't write him as the main. Coupled with the fan desire to see Goku again, he sort of resigned himself to writing Goku back into the story. That's why the Buu saga is so uneven; Toriyama had to come up with excuses to get Goku back into the game even when unnecessary. I mean, Kid Buu could've been beaten by Gotenks OR Gohan, but to make the story thematically fitting, Goku had to do the killing blow.
How would it have been a rehash?
Goku gets beaten up by Piccolo Daimao, goes to drink holy water and get potential unlocked, defeats stronger version of Daimao.
Gohan gets beaten up by Majin Buu, gets ritual and potential unlocked, defeats stronger version of Majin Buu.
Well, yeah, but you can break down a lot of sagas like that, since the whole point of DB's arcs is to constantly try and be better.
-Hero beaten by bad guy.
-Hero gains powerup somehow (training, magic, SSJ, god, whatever)
-Hero beats bad guy.
A few examples:
Goku vs Tao Pai Pai
Piccolo vs 17
Gotenks vs Buu (sort of, he never finishes the job)
Reversals:
Cell vs Vegeta
Buu vs Gohan
Not really as Piccolo and Gotenks both failed to beat Seventeen and Buu.
Matches Where Hero Lost and Won the Rematch:
Goku Vs. Yamcha - Yamcha only won round 1 because Goku was hungry anyway.
Goku Vs. Tenshinan - Tenshinan only won round 1 because of the car.
Goku Vs. Mercenary Tao - Okay, I'll give you that one.
Goku Vs. King Piccolo - Already covered.
Goku Vs. Raditz - Rematch was a draw, and he needed Piccolo and Gohan's help.
Vegeta Vs. Zarbon - Okay I guess this counts. But I'm not really fond of Near Death Power-Up's either.
Trunks Vs Future Androids - Climax of arc was already over, falling action so it didn't really bother me.
Matches Where Hero Lost and Won the Rematch:
Goku Vs. Yamcha - Yamcha only won round 1 because Goku was hungry anyway.
Goku Vs. Tenshinan - Tenshinan only won round 1 because of the car.
Goku Vs. Mercenary Tao - Okay, I'll give you that one.
Goku Vs. King Piccolo - Already covered.
Goku Vs. Raditz - Rematch was a draw, and he needed Piccolo and Gohan's help.
Vegeta Vs. Zarbon - Okay I guess this counts. But I'm not really fond of Near Death Power-Up's either.
Trunks Vs Future Androids - Climax of arc was already over, falling action so it didn't really bother me.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Could Devilmite Beam destroy most of the characters?
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
Pretty much anyone with any amount of evil would die though most people in DBZ could avoid it fairly easily unless they're holding the idiot ball.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Makes me wonder if DBZ-era Goku could still be immune from it.
Goku is still considered pure of heart at the end of DBZ.
The final battle of the Buu Saga is actually between two of the weakest characters/versions of characters that show up in that saga.
Vegito, Super Buu (any absorbtions, or none), Buff Buu, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, all of them are stronger than Goku and Kid Buu. Possibly Majin Buu, as well (the version that comes out of the egg) - We never truly see his full power as even against Goku, he was playing around.
Only versions of major fighters in the Buu Saga that are weaker are Goku and vegeta as SSJ2 and probably Evil Buu and Mr Buu (the split forms of Majin Buu)
In fact, Goku's strength doesn't change one bit in the Buu Saga. When he uses the Genki Dama on Kid Buu, he's basically the exact same strength he was when he came to the earth for the tenkaichi budokai. Which makes the whole saga rather pointless as Goku literally had no progression.
I'm pretty sure Goku says Gohan can beat Buu now.
Well, besides the whole "Gohan cannot win fight unless someone holds his hand" joke.
Perhaps you should ask a few women who are around 40 to tell you their ages.
So what does everyone think of the movies? I'm trying to go through them all again (at SA13 right now) and can't really pinpoint ones that I like or think are good in the context of the series. (I have to add that qualifier because I don't think anyone would say a DB/Z movie could compare to Schindler's List or Lawrence Of Arabia by any stretch of the imagination.)
Maaaayyybbeee the 1st 2, but I still have to see the rest of the flicks.
Maaaayyybbeee the 1st 2, but I still have to see the rest of the flicks.
I think the first two and maybe the 13th are pretty solid. Tell nice little stories, beautiful animation some nice little character things. After that they're all pretty much only good for the fights and a tiny bit of world building. But I have a love for the 12th one.
Edit: Completely forgot about BoG. That's awesome. The best parts of the series in movie form.
AlimNassor
Banned
Most are pretty bad. BoTG is pretty good. Doesn't take itself seriously.
That's a good observation, and it makes it particularly ironic. Perhaps that was Toriyama venting his frustrations at being burned out with Dragonball and was out of ideas. He tried and tried to write a hero other than Goku, but circumstances and the storyline kept forcing him to go back to the big G. So, thematically, Buu being forced to go back to a Goku vs bad guy finale, even though they have no real storyline or character connection, fits the entire Dragonball franchise as a whole.
If he had been given a break before doing Buu saga, he probably would've been able to come back to Gohan's generation with a fresher attitude. But fans will be fans and business is business.
Gohan was lame and he made the right choice by bringing Goku and Vegeta back, I'm just going to go ahead and say that.
There's only so many times you can hand out cheap, gifted powerups. The only time Gohan is remotely interesting again is when he became a superhero, but even that was brushed away as soon as the real fighting started.
I can understand Bulma lying about her age, but I can't accept that Krillin accepted.
That would mean he knows he's older than her, which he knows isn't true!
And then Mai was being totally honest too.
You REALLY think Krillin is going to be That Guy at her birthday and go *raises finger* Excuse me, I ACTUALLY think you're a different age.
Right.
He probably forgot how old she was, too, I mean they met 30 years ago and probably never had the audacity to ask her like a rude social outcast. You really think Krillin's going to insult Yamcha's gf and Vegeta's wife?
Also, if you go way back in time, part of the joke of Mai's character is that while she may look older, she's a shy girl (she gets shy at holding hands). So no contradiction there.
Also, it's Dragonball. Toriyama will rewrite history for a joke easily.
Toriyama was too burned out to come up with good ideas for Gohan. The typical teen superhero trying to balance it with a normal life was a bit overdone (Spiderman had been doing that since forever) so clearly he needed more time.
A few weeks of time off after writing Cell's death was not enough to create a whole new generation.
I feel bad for Toriyama, really.
Krillin is far more mature and also married by the time of Gods. He's not going to publicly insult his friend at her own birthday.
Yeah the arc starts off with the feel that Gohan will finally get some character development, only for Gohan to come out the other side as being one of the most uninteresting and two dimensional characters in all of Dragonball.
I mean he had his potential unlocked on Namek with Guru's power-up, then again in Cell arc when he turned Super Saiyan 2, then again in Buu arc when he turns Mystic. Zzz....
There's a big difference between prodding her about it, and calling her out on it.
Which is why Toriyama's burnout is such a tragedy, really. Gohan's adventures could have been a whole new fresh start, but since DBZ had so much inertia and history, it was weighed down.
Sort of like, say, other long running series like Star Trek or Star Wars--you have to make a series separate from the older ones or the older continuity will mess up any new stories.
I think you're making a Buu mountain out of Freeza hill here, man.
Also TECHNICALLY all of their ages can be a bit out of whack since Krillin spent a few months dead, who's to say they don't get a bit confused after 30 years as to who is what age? Or that Bulma and Chi-Chi didn't go and wish to be 10 years younger at some point? I mean, the Pilaf Gang did it off-camera, so there's literally no reason why Bulma and Chi-chi couldn't at some point.
FreeMufasa
Junior Member
I thought they wished back all those vegeta killed at the tournament
EDIT: ur right cps kibito came back. Was yohan still fighting boo at the time?
Nope, this is right after Vegeta died and Goku woke up (convenient timing). Yamcha wished for all the non-evil people who died that day to come back.
So I've been getting the movies on Blu Ray and they look pretty good. I know people hate the Orange Bricks(I don't really care for them, I bought the Dragon Boxes.), but the remastering is pretty good on the movies. A lot better than the Bricks. I'm curious to see the new BluRay release but I'm sure since it seems like the OB transfer it might not be too preferable to the Dragon Boxes for me.
Gods is 5 years after the Buu Saga, right?
Most of the characters are supposed to be in their 40s.
Krillin would be 42 or 43
SatoAilDarko
Member
For the movies guys which is the way to go? How are the Funimation Blu-Ray releases compared to their movie packs in terms of technical quality? There is a big price difference as the movie packs are $13 now for 4-5 movies while the blu-rays are $22 for two movies. It seems I'm going to have to get Trunks and Bardock on Blu-Ray anyway.
BluRay has better picture quality. You kind of pay extra for that if you want it. I assume the DVDs might be fine but I went BR and am glad I did they look sharp.
Nah, Krillin was 13 during the 21st tournament, so 16 at the 22nd, dead at 16, 19 at the 23rd, 23 at Raditz, 24 at Vegeta, dead at 24/25 (can't remember how much time passed at Namek), 27/28 at Androids, 34/35 at Buu, so 38/39 by this.
Marauder Shields
Member
I like the Bardock movie, since for me it adds more weight to the Frieza saga.