I'm going to assume that it was implied that U6 does not count anymore lol
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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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I'm going to assume that it was implied that U6 does not count anymore lol
That was before true Golden Frieza, who is stronger than Frieza during the Resurrection 'F' Saga, who they would be stronger than.
That isn't true. In the Resurrection 'F' Saga, Goku said that Vegeta may have surpassed him. The show itself, however, never claimed Vegeta was stronger, not even Vegeta. The only time Vegeta arguably could have been stronger than Goku was after he left the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in the Future Trunks Saga and even that's undermined by Goku having better feats than Vegeta since he melted half of Merged Zamasu's face by himself.
And Vegeta used the same time chamber in the Cell Saga twice, while Goku only used it once, and he was still vastly inferior to Goku. So the whole notion that Vegeta used the time chamber again, therefore he should be stronger than Goku, is a flawed argument.
Yeah I mixed up my memory of scenes
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
I do know that. I just said if you look at the internet, no one likes Superman giving how much people love to crap on him for various things, while he's actually extremely well-loved.
My point was that very popular and beloved characters often gets a lot of crap either by people who really do hate them and don't understand the love for them, people who think they're overrated and other characters who are less popular are better than them, or they really hate a certain aspect of the character and can't stop themselves from harping on this flaw.
Goku falls into this since he's beloved by many, but people don't like or care for him for the above reasons. Adding to this is that Goku got an heroic upgrade in both the Japanese and US dub and now fans are beginning to find out that Goku is kind of an asshole and Super has Goku more in the spotlight while he was a plot device in Z.
The Silver
Member
When are they gonna stop treating Trunks and his parasitic fusion partner like toddlers who don't know shit. They treated Gohan like a grown ass man when he was 5 years old, smh.You see...
Because it's difficult to remember that he's even there. Frieza has been standing out about as well as Tien so far.
ArchedThunder
Banned
When they grow up.
Give it time. It took two years for them to fix Gohan.
JadedWriter
Member
Speaking of Frieza I'm still waiting for him to own up to that hot shit he was talking before the tournament started.You see...
Hellwarden
Member
That's all their characters have ever been. (Well save for that brief flashfoward.)
That's it.
Especially Goten, who will always remain the worst character of the DB franchise.
Whis said he made Vegeta's weight twice as heavy from before. Not that he made them twice as heavy as Goku since Vegeta apparently could lift the weights before after some practice. And again, it was never said Vegeta was stronger. Goku only said may have been stronger.
Vegeta and Trunks together couldn't hurt Merged Zamasu, while Goku did by himself. If Vegeta was vastly stronger, he wouldn't have to break his arms to hurt Merged Zamasu, especially with Trunks' help. It's nothing like Majin Vegeta vs. Buu.
Hellwarden
Member
Come to think of it, Black being evil Gohan have been lame.
Black being evil Goten tho...
...that could have had potential.
Black being evil Goten tho...
...that could have had potential.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
Lol especially against future trunks
Speaking of JIren, I wonder if they had intended to make him a little bit more like Toppo, viewing Goku as evil and justice and all that, because there's still that episode where it looked like him in the cloak during the exhibition match, so I would assume that they had planned an early reveal and for whatever reason that got axed.
The Silver
Member
You know it would have been funny if Trunks and Goten came to the tournament and then you had everyone acting disgusted with U7 for bringing children to the fight. I can hear Toppo now.
Right, because universes being erased doesn't build any danger.....
And before I hear, "we know everyone survived because of EOZ", may I asked, did you honestly think the heroes were in any real danger in Z outside of some minor side characters?
Also, "characters are completly new to me and I don't care if they vanish minutes later", so Gowasu is new to you?
HYUP
So is Tien, yet he has fans.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Production wise that would make no sense, the PV with the smaller cloaked figure aired January 28th and Goku vs Toppo was March 19th. If they had scrapped the original version of events then that means they would have had a maximum of 7 weeks to completely restart production on episode 82, that means script, storyboard and animation. An episode made under those conditions would look as bad, if not worse than the worst looking episodes of the series, but not only that it would have required them to make changes to episodes around it that involved Toppo and ultimately it would have set the production of the show backwards, but instead this arc has had the highest overall quality of any arc in Super.
That's not even mentioning that it would be completely stupid to scrap something that far in production for a show like Super that doesn't have the greatest production. Also keep in mind that episodes are not produced in a vacuum. It would have been decided that Goku was fighting Toppo all the way back in 2016.
Yeah, I figured that'd be the counterargument, but it's just one of those things that still seemed weird. Thanks for explaining.
Son Goku, first you doom our universes, and then you send your children to fight your battles. You are truly the worst type of scum.
ArchedThunder
Banned
It definitely was weird, my only guess is that they did it on purpose for some reason.
Future Trunks has no connect with Goten, so seeing an evil Goku-look like wouldn't have done a thing to him.
Icyflamez96
Member
The doesn't mean everyone has to think that way, nor do you know if all of the characters are actually thinking that way. Your illness comparison is still faulty, you repeating the word doesn't change that. And I already said this, of course no one is thinking that, because no one knows about what Gowasu did anyway, but you can't say for certain that no one is thinking "I could have enjoyed life longer if it wasn't for him!" Because if they were, they would have a right to be mad at Goku, which is my argument.
You still can't say with certainty that every character feels a certain way on the matter. Obviously many characters in the show are upset with Goku because of his actions, and my argument is that their feelings could be very justified according to my thought process. Which is the point of me bringing it up, and it's a very reasonable, realistic thought process to have. Your argument relies on the idea that everyone in the show HAS to go by the thought process you propose, and since you assume they do, whatever hate they have towards Goku is "petty". But you don't actually know that. And I'm not even doing that with my side of the argument. I'm not saying everybody in the show is, or has to be going by the thought process I bring up. I'm just saying hate at Goku can be justified by this thought process. It's not exactly a rare one to have, so naturally many fans who consider that are going to take that into account and fall under the belief that Goku does deserves some crap for his actions.
The only reason you think anyone is wrong for giving Goku crap for this is based off of your faulty proposition that all of the characters have to subscribe to a certain way of thinking, and if they don't they're wrong.
I have already gave greater clarification why the illness example works. Whether you agree or disagree, whatever.
And please name me a character in the show who has made the argument that they could have lived for another 1000 years. Not even Gowasu, who actually saw 1000 years into the future, claimed this. This is literally a fan idea not reflected in the actual show. Just like, 'Zen'o could have changed his mind because he's Zen'o", which fans push to blame Goku for making Zen'o remember, despite no one else ever making this argument. In fact, it has been the opposite.
No, my thought process is using what is shown in the actual show, not what may be what people are thinking. As I wrote above, tell me a character in Super who has made the argument that they could have existed longer if it wasn't for Goku. And I called the characters 'petty' because that is also presented in the show. Vados and others have pointed out several times that Goku did them a favor, yet the gods still blamed Goku for everything when it's really their own faults for not doing their jobs or not doing their jobs well. Even when one of them suggested just talking to Zen'o to give them more time to raise the mortal ranking, they couldn't get their act together. On top of that, the Gods of Destruction showed more anger over Goku's friendship with Zen'o then him actually starting the tournament, hence they're shown as petty. Heck, U4's God of Destruction tried to get U7 destroyed early not because he was mad at Goku, but because he didn't like Beerus.
Nope, everything I said is within the show. Everything you claimed that can be reasons to hate Goku isn't. It's as simple as that.
I know that, just thought it would be cool thing and ironic based on their present
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
DBS LatAm Episode 6 was pretty good. Krillin's voice did great. And I feel bad for Vegeta lol
Icyflamez96
Member
And I refuted why you can't make a direct comparison. Nothing you said directly addressed or refuted my my points.
I never said a character made these arguments, nor does that detract from my point.
You think there's no good reason for any of the characters hate Goku for this, but you can't say that unless you know every single character's thoughts on the matter. And what I'm saying is, hate thrown at Goku for his actions can be very well justified and not petty, and crap given to him for the reason I listed in my other posts is valid.
To argue against my point, you would have to be going by the belief that every character, not only involved with the tournament, but every being living in the DB universe subscribes to the way you think they should think. That is not in the show.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Pulpo... Pulpo... Pulpo...
I did address your point several times and I won't do it again.
The show never gave a reason why the characters in it would hate Goku that isn't petty. All the reasons you named are fans giving reasons to the characters that they never once stated. "They could live for another 1000 years", literally no one in the show said this, not even Gowasu who saw 1000 years into the future. "Zen'o could have forgetting", again, no one claimed this. It's the opposite since the Grand Priest explicitly said that Zen'o often talked about too many universes. "If they had more time, they could have raised the mortal ranking", true if those universes knew they're mortal ranking was so low and they didn't until the tournament was announce. Even then, they could have tried to asked Zen'o to postpone as Khai himself said, but the gods couldn't get their shit together. Overall, the characters in the show has no real reason to blame or hate Goku since even if he was reckless and careless with dealing with Zen'o, his action in the end ending up being a benefit to them. Instead of taking it as a blessing, they chose to bitch about it, mostly because Goku is even friends with Zen'o, hence the show presented them as petty.
Your argument amounts to 'characters could feel this way', yet you still haven't presented me with a character that has actually voiced these feelings. Only, 'well they could'. Also, this is a story, a work of fiction. It doesn't need to show me how everyone in the multiverse thinks. If the story wanted to present the argument that Goku's actions kept people from existing for another 1000 years or whatever and people are mad about that, they would have done it.
Astral Dog
Member
Guys, if Frieza was there doing stuff lots of fans would be complaining other characters don't get anything to do in the tournament, patience its going to be worth it 😏
Fulminator
Member
So who is the next universe out?? I think it will be u4
PapaGreg95
Member
The problem is that a good chunk of the characters don't treat it like that, you have some of them scolding others for attacking people in the middle of their transformations, 2 people torturing one of the competitors oh and my favorite the last people of universe 10 picking a fight against the universe who has been killing it in the tournament.
Either 4 or 3.
Since U6 has taken out most of U3, I kind of expect them to take out the rest of the U3 fighters, and U4's God will probably target continue targeting U7.
Gohan has only taken out one person though. To a lot of fighters he could be viewed as the weakest one.
Frieza torturing people is him being sadistic, it's the Frieza we should have had in RoF, and it fits in this arc. If they're near death they're not going to be able to fight and will eventually fall out. His torturing was also before he saw the first universe erased, but going by him throwing hte U10 member out, that seemed to have gotten him back in line.
U2 is a joke universe, they're there for humor and parody, yeah that messes with the flow a little bit, but it's just how that universe operates. To them not being given the time to power up is an insult. But yeah, 102 is the one time I couldn't take this tournament seriously.
Icyflamez96
Member
Your illness question was asking if one would rather live for a year knowing you're going to die by an illness after that time is up, or have a low chance to save yourself from the illness. It is not comparable to the situation because the other option for these contestants wasn't to "live out this 'illness' knowing they will be eventually gone". The other option would be for them to continue living their lives in ignorance that they will be eventually gone. That clearly lays out why you can't directly compare the two scenarios, and no amount of dodging will change that.
No one in the show has verbalized that they'd rather continue living in ignorance that they'd be erased eventually anyway, but you're making the assumption that everyone goes by the line of thinking that you bring up. And again, you cannot know that unless every character gave their thoughts. You're assuming. And I'm saying that there's a justified reason to give Goku crap as a fan and as a character in the show.
GP's wording was "Zeno has often said there are too many universes, so Goku's tournament proposition was the perfect opportunity." Which does not confirm at all when Zeno would have gotten to it otherwise. Also, it doesn't matter if no character made the 1000 years argument, we literally saw in the show that it is still there 1000 years later. That is part of the show, whether a character mentioned it later or not. It is not just a "fan idea".
You're whole argument of "they don't know about mortal ranking so they can't go up or down" makes no sense. Mortal ranking exists whether they are aware of it or not, and it is going to go up or down based on how they tend to their universe, whether they know it or not. The existence and fluctuation of mortal rankings doesn't rely on whether or not those gods are aware of it.
My argument is that there is valid reason to give Goku crap. And that stands whether it was confirmed that someone does give him crap for that particular reason or not. Your argument relies on the idea that everyone feels a specific way about the matter, and you can't know that unless everyone has given their thoughts. Which clearly they haven't. There is nothing that confirms they all feel the way you propose.
Fulminator
Member
U3 still has 7 fighters left
Idk toshio said he wrote an ep about them, makes me think they will last a bit
Galactic Specter
Member
Frieza's not breaking any rules.
I could see that, but you figure 4's loss will be in 4 or 5 episodes, then 3's, assuming 3 is next will be 4 or 5 episodes, I don't know how the rotation works for episode writers, but you'd figure in 10 episodes we'd get Toshio's next one.
I think U3 is when we'll start getting to the more "these people are actually strong" episodes, and I think that's when the Namekians will be revealed, if only 3 fighters have been taken out, that means U6 took all of them out, so I think they'll continue that trend.
Magetta's reaction to them should be good, especially if there's empathy towards them.
Then again it'd be cool if Gohan had a android 16 flashback while fighting one of them.
Final thoughts. I think 3 falls with 10 minutes left, with 2,11, 7, and 6 all having their heavy hitters.
What I'm wonder is what this means knowing it's 3 and 4 who are the most strategic/ manipulative. Are they really going to accept losing? Or are they going to have a contingency plan? After they're gone, besides 11, everyone else seems to be playing it straight, and I think 11 is as well, but I could see them having some type of contingency plan as well.
PapaGreg95
Member
I was referring to the two universe 10 guys treating Kale like their own punching bag and going back to universe 10 going after 7 I'm just saying if you were the one of the last two representative of your universes would't it make more sense to attack the universes that aren't pretty one shooting everyone I mean when Goblin was looking at Gohan he was probably thinking "Huh this guy is from the universe where two of their members beat most of universe 9 fighters, I think I can take him"
My bad, when I hear torturer my mind goes to Frieza. My only justification for using Kale as a punching bag was them trying to have fun until more fighters start losing stamina and tire out. Neither of them look too bright, which was the point of U10's fighters, they have muscles, they're not intelligent, so they might have just done it because they just didn't know better. Maybe they are sadistic like Frieza, so it's an impulse they can't control, the way they spoke gave me that Frieza like vibe.
You're right, I'm not fully disagreeing. I guess it would make more sense to go for another universe, or finally take out Tien, but the whole place is a Battlefield so it's either challenge these two people who haven't done much of anything, or get caught in the crossfires of another fight. It's part of the problem this TOP has of focusing everything around U7, which makes sense early on and storywise, but not when you have 1 or 2 fighters left. They probably should have kept the Cell lookalike and the Rose guy in it so it would have been 5 U10 fighters left in the span of a minute.
I'm sill disappointed the U10 fighters didn't start torturing Kale again after Caulifla fights SSJ2 Goku. That would have been much better for her transforming.
PapaGreg95
Member
I'll give you that one, after all that Pink Elephant was going on how Gowasu should "Believe in the power of flesh" so it would make sense universe 10 would have at least 2 boneheads on their team.
The universe is also in danger every couple of years. You can only do the 'universe is in danger' so many times before it become routine.
Also, these people have always put honor before reason. The planet was going to explode and kill Goku, yet he allowed Frieza to go to his full power. Let's not get started on the BS that happened to get Cell perfect.
Finally, U10 picked fights against people in the tournament who have been doing shit except standing in a circle.
Yes it is since those universes were going to be destroyed since they didn't even know their mortal ranking was bad until the Grand Priest told them. By all accounts, they weren't going to be warned to get their act together. Zen'o would just wake up one day and nuke them, no warning giving. But if you want more, how about this. Is it better to know you have heart disease that will kill you in six months and get treatment that can possible save you at high risk, or pretend everything is fine until you randomly drop dead? But giving how most US people tend to think nowadays, I guess ignorance would be bliss.
No, you're the one making assumption that characters may feel this way when the show hasn't presented anyone who has. Even people who can reasonably feel that they got cheated like Gowasu never said anything.
Your reasons are based on using stuff that the story never once stated. Like I said, it's a fictional story, not real life. If the writers wanted us to know that Goku took away a thousand years from people and people were upset that time was stolen, then the story itself would have told us because that's what a story does.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Icyflamez96
Member
Now that comparison works better. But anyway, you said before that there is no right or wrong answer to that question, which proves my point. Because that means it's valid to feel either way, which means there is valid reason to be mad at Goku. Which is my argument, and that relies on no assumption about what the characters think. While your argument relies on the assumption that everyone thinks the way you think they should.
The 1000 year thing was literally shown to us in the story. I'm not sure how you could argue against the validity of it when it was literally shown. The story itself doesn't focus on this because it doesn't want to paint Goku too far in that "villainous" light, but that doesn't mean fans and characters in the show couldn't have a justified reason to give him crap. All in all, the fact still stands that story has never presented that everyone thinks in the way you proposed, so you suggesting they do is still an assumption.
Romars202129
Member
I feel like if the tourney is getting interrupted, it will happen before the next erasure.
Sony
Nintendo
By what or whom?
Either Angel's and God's revolt
One of the angel's/ God wanted to use this as a chance to eliminate everyone, including the 2 Zeno's and the GP
An enemy of Zeno's is able to escape, maybe similar to Bojack they were locked in the world of void and all the power being displayed is freeing him
The GP has a plan to stop the two Zeno's, and has only been going along with their wish for the ToP until he could strike
Future Zeno is Zamasu
Frieza and Frost have a plan.
U4 or U3 win and use the Super Dragon Ball's in a way that harms Zeno, so Zeno has to bring back all the other universes to combat them.
Goku wishes back everyone Zeno erased, bringing back an enemy in the past Zeno had trouble killing, or just in general 6 toxic universes since we know there use to be 18 universes.
Honestly I just want a tournament. The two we did get in Z got interrupted, the 1 so far in Super had the Monaka controversy, just give me a tournament that has an ending.
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