Ah i see. I agree with the general statement but not with Super.
Goku is insufferable to me in Super and i loved him in the manga.
So that wasn't about him being a hero.
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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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Ah i see. I agree with the general statement but not with Super.
Goku is insufferable to me in Super and i loved him in the manga.
So that wasn't about him being a hero.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Is there an English translation yet?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Yamcha Manga
it's implied that the reason Senzus got scarce later on is because Yajoribe lives at Korin's and has been eating most of them
I'm not sure if I can post it, but if you look at a subreddit relevant to our topic of discussion
DBZ
Sony
Nintendo
I don't think it works that way. Zeno's power is not his battle power, it's his divine ability to delete anything in existance. You could make Goku fuse with Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Hit, Jiren, Gohan, 17, 18, Toppo, LSSJKale and they still wouldn't be a match for Zeno as he can simply delete that being. They only ones that might be able to revolt are angels as we don't know if they can actually be erased. Even if all the universes are erased and the angles revolt, they still don't have the power to bring those universes back.
Like, a revolt against Zeno in terms of doing anything other than arguing with him is completely out of the question.
Like, a revolt against Zeno in terms of doing anything other than arguing with him is completely out of the question.
Romars202129
Member
It bothers me that even in a story like the au Yamcha manga
humans are still s*** past the sayian Arc
Romars202129
Member
That moment when football meets DBZ.
Been done. There was an old Toonami promo where a linebacker claimed even if he wasnt as fast as Goku, he could sack him.
As a kid this triggered me lol.
HazySaiyan
Banned
Those are hideousThat moment when football meets DBZ.
roflwaffles
Member
Yeah they went to this concept really fast. By introducing the best of every universe and have the vast majority of them as generally uninteresting mooks that don't stand a chance against Goku really lessens the potential storylines they can do in the future.
RocknRola
Member
They are
Get Goku's ugly face out of there and these would actually look fairly clean and simple.
Romars202129
Member
Thats why I'm thinking the interruption is imminent if its happening. We got a bit of 9 and 10, so there was at least a modicum of impact when they were erased.
Besides 6, any more erasings won't even move the dial. so its either happening now or we're going all the way and 6 will be the tearjerker finale erasing
RocknRola
Member
What if they were faster than Burter? :v
Romars202129
Member
As long as they weren't faster than Guldo
But he took out two, Botamo and Obuni.
RocknRola
Member
clay_ghost
Member
Romars202129
Member
Is it really being fast when you just use "h4x"?
Technically faster is the best kind of faster!
There is no real right or wrong answer, but I personally hate the ignorant is bliss defense. Too much shit happened in history because of people being ignorant. Case in point, look how people deal with racism in the US. Put their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, but that's another matter.
Again, there is no assumption in my statement. My statement is purely on what the show have shown and told us, not the assumption that some random character that the writers haven't created may feel this way.
It was shown through Gowasu and even then he never claimed his life was shortened by Goku's actions. And we already now the future isn't a sure thing in Dragon Ball, so them seeing the future is always a flawed argument.
So, because the story doesn't want to blame Goku too much, it doesn't show people getting mad by their existence being cut short and in theory some character the writers didn't create can have these feelings? This isn't real life, this is a story and the characters feel whatever the writers what them to feel. As of right now, there is no character that feels cheated by Goku, not even the person who rightful should of had these feelings.
- One Zen'o can erased anything. Two Zen'o is double erased anything. How does this tournament opens up Zen'o to be attack, especially two of them?
- How does erasing universes relate to stopping the two Zen'o?
- Probably one of the best theories, but I doubt it.
- What plan does Frieza and Frost could have that can do anything in a void filled with gods and angels? It isn't like they could think of a plan ahead of time.
- From what we have seen, the Super Dragon Balls can't do anything against Zen'o. Remember, Future Zen'o killed an immortal who was made that way by the Super Dragon Balls, after he fused with the multiverse.
- See first point.
So far, only the Zamasu being Future Zen'o amounts to anything and I don't see why he would destroy universes since he loved the universes. He despised the mortals in them.
You fall under: really hate a certain aspect of the character and can't stop themselves from harping on this flaw.
It's only three chapters?
That moment when football meets DBZ.
These would be a lot better if they tried to mimic Piccolo's shoes:
Please excuse the poor quality
Four universes are not in the tournament and there was no way Super was going to explore all 12 universes with any real detail. The series never even explore all of U7 and remember, Frieza was the stronger mortal in U7 until Super Saiyan Goku. If this tournament took place during the Cell or even Buu Saga, U7 would have been the fodder universe.
JadedWriter
Member
Is this from the same person that does the JJBA comic covers?
This one is cool, i dont know the source
HazySaiyan
Banned
Yeah they'd actually be kinda cool if it was just the Turtle Hermit symbolThey are
Get Goku's ugly face out of there and these would actually look fairly clean and simple.
I meant from Obuni's perspective, Gohan has only taken out Botamo, but then that assumes he's looking at it from our perspective, which he isn't, so that migth not be a valid point regardless.
Also a good amount of people were complaining when we learned 91 was going to be 90% about other universes.
Just focusing on other universes solely, especially if in this scenario the ToP hasn't even been revealed yet, might have pissed people off. I would have been down for it, but it's clear for whatever reason they wanted to go straight to this arc.
Yeah I agree most of these aren't realistic things that could be done with Zeno there, but if there was someone an interruption, these were the only possibilities I could think of. I think one of those could happen, but just be a failed attempt, just so Toei can play at the expectation of the tournament being interrupted only to crush people's dreams in the next episode when it has no long term effect.
I'd rather the tournament have a proper conclusion that sets up something post ToP.
Z Goku and Super Goku are objectively different characters.
He wasn't a plot device in Z either.
Goku is Dragon Ball, Ive never not seen it this way. Even during the cell saga it seemed to me more like they were subverting expectations and creating twists by not having Goku save the day than actually making it so Goku wasnt the main guy anymore, even then they were putting him on a pedestal. And I honestly think DBS Goku is my favorite. Its a beautiful mix of DB Goku and Homer Simpson, I am thoroughly entertained
Goku is certainly a plot device in Z. He's sidelined very often so other characters can be focused on and only shows up when they're backed into a corner. He may have been the center of all the marketing, but he had very little to do other than sit back and be the strongest character and he's never the one advancing the story.
Vegetables in his natural habitat
Replace each time they say warrior with jobber
It might also have to do that the fight with Toppo wasn't exactly within an universe.
I guess the circumstances are different when Gohan was a kid they didn't have much of a choice, nowadays things are different if they can even resort to people like Frieza(who's dead even) during a crisis.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Consistency.
Romars202129
Member
Consistent with show, not consistent with its premise
Does that make him a plot device though? Goku doesn't drive the plot.
- In the Saiyan saga, the Z fighters don't train for an entire year because of Goku.
- The Freeza saga literally revolves around the Dragon Balls.
- The Cell sage had the androids and Cell.
- There were multiple plot devices in the Buu arc, lol.
Plot devices by definition, advance the story.
This seems to prove my point?
Goku isn't pushing any of those arcs forward, he just reacts to strong villains that other characters can't take care of.
No, we're not going to pretend Goku didn't steal Gohan's win in the Buu saga.
Fair enough, poor choice of words on my part.
However, Goku's role throughout Z is little more than to be there to save the day, other characters continue to develop while Goku stays static. When a character has nothing going on besides showing up to help other characters when they need it the most, then that character is a plot device.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I consider the androids to be human. At least 17, 18, and 20.
Certainly more human than mutant Tien and no-nose Kuririn.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Idk if I'd consider the main character a plot device..
Star Orpheus
Member
On being upset at Goku I feel it's perfectly valid to be mad at a character even if the show itself isn't punishing him for it. I mean Naruto forgave Sasuke clearly that means he did no wrong and the fans should forgive him.
I like Goku but I rolled my eyes the moment the "he gave the universes a fighting chance" excuse was made. It was such a blatant attempt to get people to not be mad at Goku.
I like Goku but I rolled my eyes the moment the "he gave the universes a fighting chance" excuse was made. It was such a blatant attempt to get people to not be mad at Goku.
Romars202129
Member
I hope they go deep on the superhuman lore as thats what 17 and 18 are supposed to be after this arc
I know they won't
But speaking of which, I'm suprised how limited the Yamcha manga is. I mean he took the most vanilla path to power.
What if he had gone to Gero and asked to be made like 17, our wished himself to Supreme kai and got the elder unlock, or wished himself eternal youth and jumped in the rosat for a bunch of time.
They weren't incredibly imaginative.
Dragon Ball is plot driven story, so none of the protagonists are generally pushing an arc forward on their own forward. Pretty much everyone reacts to the plot (ie: villains) in Dragon Ball, so I'm not sure why you're singling Goku out in that regard. Hell, the whole point of Dragon Ball is how these characters react. Like, your argument that Goku is just "there to save the day" insanely reductive because:
1) This isn't even accurate (see the Cell arc, where he takes on a more supportive role)
2) There's more to it than that. "Goku shows up and defeats the Saiyans" does not tell the full story. Goku crushes Nappa and struggles against Vegeta, throwing everything he's got at him w/ help from Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobi, until he's finally defeated" is more accurate.
You mean Goku, Vegeta and Hercule stole Gohan's win. Toriyama foddered Gohan, but Vegeta took advantage of it as much (if not more than) Goku.
I'm gonna be real with you; outside of Vegeta, Picollo and Gohan, nobody in Dragon Ball Z really develops as a character, because the entire story is just things happening to people. And I don't know about you, but I don't really go to Dragon Ball for character development (though Gohan's arc from the Saiyan saga to the Cell sage is easily the best in the series). I go there for well-structured arcs and exciting fights, and Goku is a significant part of that.
1) But it is accurate? See the Cell arc, where the two things he does of value are save Piccolo and Tien from Cell, and then later take Cell to King Kai's planet to prevent him from destroying the Earth.
2) The fight with Vegeta is great, I never said otherwise. However the fight with the Saibamen and Nappa is the start of Goku getting sidelined until he's needed the most that would eventually become very common(Namik even does it twice).
I disagree that nobody besides those three develop, but that's not really important to this conversation. You think only three characters are developed and none of them are Goku, isn't it a problem then that he is the main character and gets a majority of the major fights? I can't see how that doesn't sound like he is treated as just a plot device.
That moment when football meets DBZ.
You wouldn't catch me dead wearing that abomination.
Infinite Justice
Member
I would... look for a good design first.
Loved the Yamcha manga and holy shit
that twist at the end lol.
That moment when football meets DBZ.
way better without the shitty goku art
Fuck I totally forgot to watch it!
Undead Fantasy
Member
You see...
Vegeta's head looks funny here or is it just me?
Undead Fantasy
Member
I mean, those are actually pretty important moments, but you're also forgetting the fact that he:
1) Immediately notices the flaw with Vegeta's new Super Saiyan transformation and strives to perfect it (which he does), and basically sets a new standard for fighting.
2) Trains Gohan, teaching him how to use Full Power Super Saiyan (and putting him towards the path of unlocking Super Saiyan 2).
3) Gives up against Cell, knowing full well he can't win. Which is important, because if Cell were to wholly defeat Goku, he would have just blown up the planet, instead of being enticed by Goku's proposition.
Not to be rude, but who else really develops besides those three? Goku and Krillin essentially reach the end of their character arcs at the start of Z, which is fine. I suppose it's not even accurate to say that Goku doesn't further develop, because he makes the decision to stay in Otherworld after his death because he feels his existence is dangerous. Yamcha becomes a meme. Tien fades into the background. Who the fuck is Chiatzu? Trunk's arc starts and ends in the Cell saga. Goten and Kid Trunks are whatever. I guess Hercule goes from being an asshole to a helpful asshole? In any case, he is objectively not a plot device if we're going by the very basic definition of a plot device (ie: A character or object that directly advances the plot).
It's too big.
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