ChorizoPicozo
Member
I still see people in denial, uh? What is it going to take? Xbox to implode completely? Phil Spencer himself told you that Xbox is not sustainable.
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Everyone says how much Xbox is struggling, but their revenue is up? What am I missing?
- Thread starter jcorb
- Start date
May 2021:
Xbox consoles have never turned a profit for Microsoft
An executive confirms that in the Epic v. Apple trial.
www.cnet.com
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Woopah
Member
That's just about hardware, not the business as a whole. Xbox had been profitable in the past.May 2021:
Xbox consoles have never turned a profit for Microsoft
An executive confirms that in the Epic v. Apple trial.
ByWatterson
Member
Xbox hasn't posted anything.
But we do know they're pivoting their decision-making and messaging at rapid pace and frequency. A division doing well doesn't normally do that (see e.g. Sony, Nintendo).
It wouldn't surprise me if Xbox was absolutely hemorrhaging money.
Starbuck2907
Member
They don’t call it SonyGAF for nothing..
Xbox revenue is growing mainly because of its Activision acquisition.
Xbox sales are ok in the U.S. But struggling overseas, which is pretty typical.
Gamepass seems to be slowly picking up steam.
The rumors about the next Xbox seem pretty cool. Dual boot Steam? An arm chip dedicated to frame generation and upscaling with a regular chip to actually run the game? Interesting.
Xbox revenue is growing mainly because of its Activision acquisition.
Xbox sales are ok in the U.S. But struggling overseas, which is pretty typical.
Gamepass seems to be slowly picking up steam.
The rumors about the next Xbox seem pretty cool. Dual boot Steam? An arm chip dedicated to frame generation and upscaling with a regular chip to actually run the game? Interesting.
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Hohenheim
Member
I don't think hardware sales is something they care much about, and they probably havn't for a long time.
The lack of growth in Game Pass is probably a real issue and something they're concerned about.
For a while it looked like Game Pass was their plan A, B and C.
But now, as they're taking real steps to become a more traditional publisher, i'm sure they'll be bigger than ever. (They probably are, after their spending spree on publishers and studios)
I've had every xbox console since the first one, but don't have any need for their console anymore, as their PC Game Pass offering made it unnesecary. But the whole Game Pass model is becoming less and less interesting for me outside of their first party offerings.
When it comes to third party games I prefer to buy them on Steam, to make sure I don't have to finish them before they leave the service, and because Steam is a lot better as a platform.
And if I didn't already have Game Pass until mid 2026, I probably would cancel it, as their first party offerings (that i'm interested in) are few enough that buying them on Steam would not be a lot more than keeping the subscription active.
So yeah, i'm probably not getting any more Game Pass when my subscription runs out, but by then I think they're all in as a massive publisher and have very solid feet to stand on in the gaming world, which will look a lot more clear and focused.
And as someone who wants the industry to be healthy, i'm good with subscriptions not being the future. As a option, sure. But it seems obvious that it's not a solution for this industry.
(Sorry for long post and the obligatory "didn't read" responses)
The lack of growth in Game Pass is probably a real issue and something they're concerned about.
For a while it looked like Game Pass was their plan A, B and C.
But now, as they're taking real steps to become a more traditional publisher, i'm sure they'll be bigger than ever. (They probably are, after their spending spree on publishers and studios)
I've had every xbox console since the first one, but don't have any need for their console anymore, as their PC Game Pass offering made it unnesecary. But the whole Game Pass model is becoming less and less interesting for me outside of their first party offerings.
When it comes to third party games I prefer to buy them on Steam, to make sure I don't have to finish them before they leave the service, and because Steam is a lot better as a platform.
And if I didn't already have Game Pass until mid 2026, I probably would cancel it, as their first party offerings (that i'm interested in) are few enough that buying them on Steam would not be a lot more than keeping the subscription active.
So yeah, i'm probably not getting any more Game Pass when my subscription runs out, but by then I think they're all in as a massive publisher and have very solid feet to stand on in the gaming world, which will look a lot more clear and focused.
And as someone who wants the industry to be healthy, i'm good with subscriptions not being the future. As a option, sure. But it seems obvious that it's not a solution for this industry.
(Sorry for long post and the obligatory "didn't read" responses)
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Woopah
Member
I've seen this a couple of times, but why do people think MS doesn't care about Xbox sales?I don't think hardware sales is something they care much about, and they probably havn't for a long time.
The lack of growth in Game Pass is probably a real issue and something they're concerned about.
For a while it looked like Game Pass was their plan A, B and C.
But now, as they're taking real steps to become a more traditional publisher, i'm sure they'll be bigger than ever. (They probably are, after their spending spree on publishers and studios)
I've had every xbox console since the first one, but don't have any need for their console anymore, as their PC Game Pass offering made it unnesecary. But the whole Game Pass model is becoming less and less interesting for me outside of their first party offerings.
When it comes to third party games I prefer to buy them on Steam, to make sure I don't have to finish them before they leave the service, and because Steam is a lot better as a platform.
And if I didn't already have Game Pass until mid 2026, I probably would cancel it, as their first party offerings (that i'm interested in) are few enough that buying them on Steam would not be a lot more than keeping the subscription active.
So yeah, i'm probably not getting any more Game Pass when my subscription runs out, but by then I think they're all in as a massive publisher and have very solid feet to stand on in the gaming world, which will look a lot more clear and focused.
And as someone who wants the industry to be healthy, i'm good with subscriptions not being the future. As a option, sure. But it seems obvious that it's not a solution for this industry.
(Sorry for long post and the obligatory "didn't read" responses)
Hohenheim
Member
Because it's such a small part of their gaming business now that they're becoming a publisher giant?
I don't know, and maybe i'm talking out of my ass, but the console space alone can't possibly be big enough to be the focus point for their gigantic push in the gaming industry? And the potential income from being a publisher giant must be so much more than keeping their future games locked to a specific platform (that has limited growth)
Woopah
Member
Apart from Tencent, the biggest gaming companies are Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft.
That's because they take a big cut of every game, DLC and MTX sales made on their platform. That's worth a hell of a lot.
The lower your hardware sales, the lower the spending in your ecosystem and the lower your cut.
It would be like saying that Valve can publish their games across all platforms, so it doesn't matter how many people use Steam.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
May 2021:
Xbox consoles have never turned a profit for Microsoft
An executive confirms that in the Epic v. Apple trial.
This doesn’t say what you think it says.
semiconscious
Member
the less ms cares about retaining exclusives, the less their console retains any appeal. if you can either play ms/3rd-party games on xbox or ms/3rd-party/sony games on playstation? which console do you buy?...
Team Andromeda
Member
No just record amounts of revenue and no losses. Unless you can point out otherwise.
It also depends on what you mean by 'doing well'. OG Xbox was losing money hand over fist , but I guess to people like you it was doing well since Xbox didn't pivot in their decision making.
Woopah
Member
You could also say they've had no profit for the entire Series generation. Unless you can point out otherwise.
The reason MS cares less about exclusives is directly tied to their lower hardware sales, plus rising development costs.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Xbox is a separate business unit where profit 'non-negotiable'
Xbox is a separate business unit with its own profit targets within Microsoft: 'There's no part of our business where I get to lose money over time'
www.tweaktown.com
I don’t know why you are assuming they are in a loss?
Cause gamepass is cheap?
List down ways in which they can increase market share. Then let me know why they are not doing it. Is it out of their hands/impossible ??
Cakeboxer
Member
That wouldn't had worked. You can't put 300 million dollar games day1 on 9,99 Dollar Game Pass, that's why Microsoft concentrated on smaller or cheaper games. Now with all the studios and bigger games coming they had to change Game Pass tiers and prices. We'll see how this works out.
Woopah
Member
I'm not assuming they are making a loss. I'm saying that we can't definitively compare the profitability of Xbox Series against other Xbox consoles, because MS doesn't report profit for individual business segments.Xbox is a separate business unit where profit 'non-negotiable'
Xbox is a separate business unit with its own profit targets within Microsoft: 'There's no part of our business where I get to lose money over time'
I don’t know why you are assuming they are in a loss?
Cause gamepass is cheap?
Andromeda was saying that, because MS doesn't report Xbox profit levels, it must be making a bigger profit than the 360. Which doesn't make sense.
Something being difficult doesn't mean you don't care. It was very difficult for Sega to increase market share in the late 90s. Doesn't mean they didn't care how well the Dreamcast sold.
Having more popular exclusive titles would have helped Xbox. Though of course that's very challenging.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
The Sony games you mentioned, they are overhyped at release.
Do you really want this?
vaibhavpisal
Member
On the contrary, I think having exclusives like how Sony / Nintendo has is extremely easy and straightforward.
Woopah
Member
Why do you think creating popular, system-selling games is easy?
vaibhavpisal
Member
What Sony / Nintendo makes is straightforward.
They put extra time/ manpower to ensure extra polish.
Then reviewers hype them like 11/10 games.
This cycle is pretty obvious.
………
What is hard?
Making next Fortnite/ Minecraft etc.
drganon
Member
The ambassador program ended. You don't have to try so hard.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Team Andromeda
Member
Trying to be clever? .
Yep you could say that , but that's a hell of a lot better than losing $4 billion in the OG Xbox days, losing hundreds of millions for the first 3 years of the 360 and then being slapped with a $1 billion dollar write off bill to compound matters
.Maybe thats why MS started to drop Xbox 360 exclusives, sell off or close down studios...
Unless you can prove otherwise
Woopah
Member
Lots of games get manpower and polish, but only a few become megasellers that push hardware sales.
If it was so easy, Microsoft could have been doing it for the last 5 years. But they haven't, because it's very difficult.
Woopah
Member
But we have no idea if it's better. Xbox Series could have made $100s of millions or lost $100s of millions. We don't know.
MS gaming made over $1 billion in profit just in 2011. Has the Xbox Series done that? We don't know.
How can you say X is bigger than Y, when you don't what Y is?
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vaibhavpisal
Member
You will have to get into specifics.
Ubisoft games for example, they don’t get same polish as Sony games. Cause they don’t have a hardware to sell. Their aim is different, once they reach a required level of quality, they release them.
Their aim is selling 10 million copies, then make a bit more with dlc etc. They don’t need that kind of polish to achieve that.
MS already have games that are great. They don’t have launch hype cause thats not what they do.
Eg, feel free to look in Psychonauts 2 and compare it with something like Astro Bot.
Edmund
is waiting for Starfield 7
So moral of the story is if you name your son Matty, he has a 99% chance of growing up into a green rat.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Basically in nutshell
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
How well are they doing? Give us a breakdown.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Indeed. A lot of Xbox singing and dancing goes on while the fire rages rounded it.
Shane89
Member
Gamepass is selling well
Games aren't anymore, due to gamepass
Develoepers are not piad enough (there was a news some months ago abount an indie dev that reported 5~8$ for each download
Games quality will drop
I mean, PS4, which was more powerfull than Xbox One became profitable after around 1.5 years, no way that for xbox wasn't the case, which even had an HIGHER price.
Games aren't anymore, due to gamepass
Develoepers are not piad enough (there was a news some months ago abount an indie dev that reported 5~8$ for each download
Games quality will drop
This is a blatant bullshit, unless it was related at launch only.May 2021:
Xbox consoles have never turned a profit for Microsoft
An executive confirms that in the Epic v. Apple trial.
I mean, PS4, which was more powerfull than Xbox One became profitable after around 1.5 years, no way that for xbox wasn't the case, which even had an HIGHER price.
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Perfect example.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
This literally makes no sense. People play games...if Sony consoles sell maybe the games people want are playable there?
Saying this on the same year Helldivers 2, Astrobot, Silent Hill 2, FFVII Rebirth, Stellar Blade, Rise of the Ronin, TLOU2 Remastered, etc released is completely idiotic.
Sony has plenty of games you can't play on Xbox. Meanwhile Xbox is releasing their games on PS5. That says it all.
I guess it's possible that Lori Wright the vice president of Xbox development was actually perjuring herself in court, and that only shills and astroturfers know the "real truth".
The pricing and cost of the PS4 has zero bearing on the possible profitability of an Xbox console.
Yes, but how much does it cost?
We already know they spend 3bn/year on third party deals to bring games to gamespass. They have a huge number of studios and staff to support now for their 1st party output, which will be in the billions in yearly cost. People aren’t really “buying” their games in significant numbers, as they come with games pass. How much do they spend on marketing games pass and their games, and how much is their yearly cost in delivering that experience, ie server costs etc.
That 4billion “revenue” can turn into very slim margins of super low profit, or even a loss (which it was for many years) very quickly.
Esparadrapo
Member
Playstation's revenue is still far higher than Xbox' even after the ABK merger.
So Microsoft executives live in mansions, Jim Ryan could have easily lived in the Sony slum house, as he wasn't big into personal posessions
PlayStation isn't the one who has more than 650 people die of starvation every month in that house.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Games people buy consoles for are Fortnite, COD, Minecraft, FIFA, Hogwarts, College Football - and the upcoming GTA.
Higher? Yes. Far higher? No. Post ABK Xbox's revenue is in 24-25b. Sony's is around 28b. Maybe 30b at best.
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Oh wow. Sony should just close all their studios then.
mayham2199
Member
Xbox revenue is 21.5 and 27.5 for Sony.
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Team Andromeda
Member
A billion quid profit in 2011?
How about Xbox Made More Money In Past 3 Months Than It Ever Has For A Q1 In 20-Year History?
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/x...has-for-a-q1-in-20-year-history/1100-6508625/
So I will say XBox is making more money now than it ever did in the 360 or OG Xbox era
yurinka
Member
They acquired ABK and now publish MS games on PlayStation and Switch.
Their console is losing more and more market share, but the revenue of their gaming division grows in revenue because of the acquisition (which includes CoD and King) and because now are also selling some of their games in more platforms that have a way bigger userbase, one that is used to pay to buy games (instead of getting most of them from a game sub).
They are. And will make more once they move more to being a full multiplatform publisher, and once they keep moving more (or all) "day one" new games from normal GP to GPU.
If they kill their console hardware -very likely they lose money with every unit sold, like Sony- and stop putting their AAA games on normal GP day one they would even be a profitable division and start recouping the almost $100B spent on acquisitions.
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Team Andromeda
Member
I don't need a history lesson. Is Xbox making more money now than in the 360 or OG Xbox era?
Why are you posting a 2022 article about revenue as "profits for the past 3 months"?
MS may possibly be making more profit now due to ABK but Candy Crush isn't "xbox" to me or many other people.
djjinx2
Member
By killing hardware they lose the whole platform.
No Xbox then how am I buying GamePass? (Hint : I wouldn't)
No hardware then MS don't get their cut from store sales either.
Anything first party sold on Xbox is 100% from sale. Elsewhere it's only 70%
All that CoD MTX cash etc etc
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