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[Det]

Let me guess:

MS would make PC APUs with Xbox Series hardware compatibility and sell them to OEMs. The PC would have an "Xbox" sticker and would run Windows and a hardware emulator for Xbox Series X digital media, including all the Xbox Series X retro games.

MS then discovered, after planning, that no one would authorize a Windows PC to run Xbox games, even hardware emulated ones.

And now, Xbox consumers won't even have expensive PCs with Xbox Series X backward compatibility.

Don't forget Games for Windows Live.

 

[viveks86]

Let me guess:

MS would make PC APUs with Xbox Series hardware compatibility and sell them to OEMs. The PC would have an "Xbox" sticker and would run Windows and a hardware emulator for Xbox Series X digital media, including all the Xbox Series X retro games.

MS then discovered, after planning, that no one would authorize a Windows PC to run Xbox games, even hardware emulated ones.

And now, Xbox consumers won't even have expensive PCs with Xbox Series X backward compatibility.

Don't forget Games for Windows Live.

IF the rumor is true, it's a good guess.

I don't think this is how it will play out at all and this is one of those MLiD speculations being dressed up as a leak

 

[StereoVsn]

My advice - hold on to your Series consoles and take good care of them. There are no guarantees that your libraries will be safe & fully playable on future devices (whatever they may be).

Yep, planning to buy a used one for backup. I have that with all of my systems except for PS5 since that wont be hard to find.

 

[NickFire]

Just looking at the two quotes, I don't think there's anything backwards compatibility related being killed. Restrictions from contracts, copyright, licenses don't impact the ability to run the games mechanically.

 

[kevboard]

if they kill backwards compatibility, they kill Xbox as a whole. so I doubt they'll do that.
the exiting library is the only real tump card they still have. the correct way to go about it would be to expand the backwards compatibility further.

Microsoft's whole identity is backwards compatibility... not just on Xbox, in general. Windows is so insanely backwards compatible that they literally keep some bugs in the OS just because some older software would not work if they fixed them. they still default to C drive for your first hard drive instead of A or B, only so that if you wanna use a floppy disc based program it won't get confused about the drive letters.

 

[Bry0]

MLID is only talking about software emulation BC here. The statements from Sarah bond and Lisa su implied hardware level BC, but were still kind of vague so I'm not sure what they mean still.

 

[Dane]

I doubt it. The only reason for that would be a change to ARM instructions and if so it'd be more difficult to emulate Series than One.

Almost sure its not even about hardware, being still on x86 for example would be certainly a carryonver just like from One to Series, it is the legal side where you have developers who refuse to do Play Anywhere games, technically demanding an Xbox console to play console only library is the solution, unless there's a risk where developers would sue them for having it as a PC with an Xbox console chip and layer on it, which would be silly since these games would only work with said hardware rather than open format.

 

[adamsapple]

ffs why can't people understand that the ROG Ally "Xbox" is just a branding thing and the next-gen Xbox is an actual console

And miss out on all the rage?

 

[bitbydeath]

ffs why can't people understand that the ROG Ally "Xbox" is just a branding thing and the next-gen Xbox is an actual console

It's very simple to understand:

Natively runs PC, emulates console = PC
Natively runs console, emulates PC = Console

There is a third option for dual-boot of course, maybe that's what they are planning.

 

[Crayon]

Oh I remember in 2017 when overnight, partial bc became the most important thing any console could ever have. Followed closely be hd-dvd drive.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

So basically the console versions of games will not be carrying over next gen. Anything not on Play Anywhere isn't carrying over.


Wow, what a clusterfuck, I can't imagine this going over well.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

It's very simple to understand:

Natively runs PC, emulates console = PC
Natively runs console, emulates PC = Console

There is a third option for dual-boot of course, maybe that's what they are planning.

K KeplerL2 Likely knows more about future hardware level stuff than anyone else here

He is one of those guys people should pay close attention to what he says here and on Twitter

 

[bitbydeath]

K KeplerL2 Likely knows more about future hardware level stuff than anyone else here

He is one of those guys people should pay close attention to what he says here and on Twitter

I agree but his responses on this topic are very vague. Eg. What are they doing to get around PC running natively, or is he indicating there will be a console without the PC side?

 

[KeplerL2]

So basically the console versions of games will not be carrying over next gen

They are (for the real Xbox)

Anything not on Play Anywhere isn't carrying over.

Only for the fake Xbox devices like the ROG Ally 2

 

[EverydayBeast]

Having backwards compatibility use to mean something

 

[mckmas8808]

ffs why can't people understand that the ROG Ally "Xbox" is just a branding thing and the next-gen Xbox is an actual console

It's due to Microsoft's bad messaging all the time. They aren't clear enough for some people. Most here on GAF understand though.

 

[nial]

ffs why can't people understand that the ROG Ally "Xbox" is just a branding thing and the next-gen Xbox is an actual console

I'm wondering, this is like a dual-booting thing, right?

 

[asdasdasdbb]

I'm wondering, this is like a dual-booting thing, right?

That would be the most obvious way to do it.

 

[KeplerL2]

I'm wondering, this is like a dual-booting thing, right?

You mean Steam/3rd party store support? They could just run inside a VM

 

[bitbydeath]

You mean Steam/3rd party store support? They could just run inside a VM

Steam / 3rd parties won't require a VM as they run natively in Windows. The other store options are likely to be built into Windows Store, and that will again, most likely be the primary store these devices utilise.

The real question is how console games will run, VM is possible but by nature it will restrict resourcing. Dual booting gives 100%.

I wouldn't be surprised if even MS doesn't have the answers for these questions yet.

 

[Black_Stride]

People mistaking the Ally as a next gen Xbox NOT just a branding deal for a handheld PC?

 

[awwr999999]

I don't expect 100% PS4 BC with PS6, btw.
Licensing is potentially an issue with XBox PC but I would think publishers would be concerned more about Series games.

If Microsoft kills BC on x86 Xbox it benefits Windows - PC is always BC with PC.
If Sony kills BC on x86 consoles it benefits Windows - PC is always BC with PC.
Windows is a global brand, unlike Xbox, and it's always been Microsoft's priority.
Xbox was never big on a global scale like PlayStation or Nintendo.
In reality Xbox is just a North American thing that sold most of its consoles in the US, Mexico and Canada - becoming the number one console in Mexico.

 

[Ozriel]

It's due to Microsoft's bad messaging all the time. They aren't clear enough for some people. Most here on GAF understand though.

Who do you think he's talking to, by posting here?

 

[bitbydeath]

People mistaking the Ally as a next gen Xbox NOT just a branding deal for a handheld PC?

I don't think many people even validate the Ally as worthy of discussion, let alone confuse it.

I think more are discussing the PC centric device that comes after.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Where are the legal terms that define which is a console and is what is a pc that would make it more straightforward?

If a developer published its game on the Xbox console storefront, then it is a "console" game. That's part of the agreement.

No one can take that game and publish it elsewhere that is not the Xbox console storefront.

 

[Black_Stride]

I don't think many people even validate the Ally as worthy of discussion, let alone confuse it.

I think more are discussing the PC centric device that comes after.

The actual NextGen Xbox?

If it can run reggy x86 exes and Xbox xexs which are already in the BC pool then they are fucked, there is no suing for shit.
If it "natively" runs Xbox Series and Xbox One games and BC X360/OGX there is nothing any dev can do to stop it from doing so.
Microsoft isnt porting the game, so all that licensing talk is utterly irrelevent.
If you own the game on Xbox it will be on your profile, download it and itll boot.
The whole way Xbox One and Series BC works means devs cant do shit even delisted games will boot in BC mode. (See Assassins Creed III).


What MLiD is talking about is literally PCs handheld or otherwise(directly mentions Ally and XboxPC app).
Neither of which are the Nextgen Xbox.
So no Backwards Compatibility isnt being killed or paired back for nextgen, if the Ally and XboxPC app dont launch xexs then thats that.
If the nextgen Xbox can launch xexs then thats that, the devs have no say and their isnt a new licensing fee or whatever for those BC titles.
To the title its running on its native hardware.



So this thread is more MLiD nonesense that people are taking out of context, the thread title and many posts are alluding to the NextGen Xbox NOT having BC or pairing back BC because devs dont want their games running on "reggy" Windows if they are licensed out specifically for Xbox.
That has nothing to do with the nextgen Xbox.
The premise of that machine is that it can run exes from PC storefronts and xexs from the Xbox ecosystem........all BC titles would fall into that.

 

[PlayStaytion]

Then label all these games with the pink label "Just for you" like you always do on the store and put the best possible version on one box, how about that?

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Its not a popular opinion in this shores but I definitely agree with you .. it always amazed me this fight for BC ... for modern games I could easily understand because we are in diminishing returns times and most games barely evolved since last gen. Anyway I think like you.. dont care about BC at all.

Also, what's being unsaid, is because not just MS, but Sony has made that same leap with ps4 and all this consoles forward. Fanboys, Stans, whatever they are called, are arguing over boxes that have been pretty much exactly the same since both MS and Sony went full off the shelf x86 AMD APU, of course customizations, both standard SSD's….. they are exactly the same.

Now add in all these devs using all the same licensed engines/middleware/software, these games are all looking and playing very similar. The "experiences" aren't new or fresh. Keep the architecture the same even if a bit more powerful to keep your precious library (just keep the old fucking console, it's not like the Xbox one/ps4 still aren't working viable console). All that extra "power" , going the same route, just means more pixels (or bullshit scaling solutions), and or more performance.
The days of proprietary hardware where devs actually had to learn the hardware, hand draw art, and so much more led to suck unique and different experiences

Some generations of people don't remember there were TANGIBLE and CLEAR differences between ps1 and ps2, Xbox to Xbox 360……. Unless with if the companies change, hardware wise to their R&D , it's unfortunately all gonna be about the same shit.
.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Never selling my Halo Series X!

That can be my legacy console and I wont bother next gen if whatever they release doesnt have full backwards compatibility. I still play rock band 3 on my series X. I dont think you can do that on any other platform now.

 

[nial]

You mean Steam/3rd party store support? They could just run inside a VM

Do you know if running stuff through a VM can result into some performance issues? Say, a game running significantly worse on this virtual machine compared to a roughly equivalent PC.

 

[mckmas8808]

Who do you think he's talking to, by posting here?

Yeah true, but most of GAF understands this Xbox Ally X is just a PC handheld. I'm guessing he's talking to the minority of GAF that still doesn't get that yet.

Also, what's being unsaid, is because not just MS, but Sony has made that same leap with ps4 and all this consoles forward. Fanboys, Stans, whatever they are called, are arguing over boxes that have been pretty much exactly the same since both MS and Sony went full off the shelf x86 AMD APU, of course customizations, both standard SSD's….. they are exactly the same.

Now add in all these devs using all the same licensed engines/middleware/software, these games are all looking and playing very similar. The "experiences" aren't new or fresh. Keep the architecture the same even if a bit more powerful to keep your precious library (just keep the old fucking console, it's not like the Xbox one/ps4 still aren't working viable console). All that extra "power" , going the same route, just means more pixels (or bullshit scaling solutions), and or more performance.
The days of proprietary hardware where devs actually had to learn the hardware, hand draw art, and so much more led to suck unique and different experiences

Some generations of people don't remember there were TANGIBLE and CLEAR differences between ps1 and ps2, Xbox to Xbox 360……. Unless with if the companies change, hardware wise to their R&D , it's unfortunately all gonna be about the same shit.
.

The cost to making proprietary console hardware had to die though. It was getting too expensive for R&D purposes. And they would have never beat Nvidia or AMD in the long run. The jump to x86 had to happen or the Gaming industry would have folded like a cheap tent.

 

[RoboCain]

While I understand why or how they could cut legacy Xbox off... What are they going to tell regular people that has a moderate Xbox library? Oops... Your old games are not compatible anymore? It would be better for you to keep your old console?

 

[Xyphie]

Do you know if running stuff through a VM can result into some performance issues? Say, a game running significantly worse on this virtual machine compared to a roughly equivalent PC.

Games on PS/Xbox consoles already run in VMs/hypervisors for security reasons. If it can run Windows apps I think it'll likely work similar to the already existing developer mode on Xboxes and let you sideload stuff in some sort of Win32 runtime or Minimal Windows without compromising the security of the Xbox side of things.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

While I understand why or how they could cut legacy Xbox off... What are they going to tell regular people that has a moderate Xbox library?

Finish them before buying the new box?

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Yeah true, but most of GAF understands this Xbox Ally X is just a PC handheld. I'm guessing he's talking to the minority of GAF that still doesn't get that yet.



The cost to making proprietary console hardware had to die though. It was getting too expensive for R&D purposes. And they would have never beat Nvidia or AMD in the long run. The jump to x86 had to happen or the Gaming industry would have folded like a cheap tent.

MS and Sony weren't competing against AMD though. AMD wasn't in the condole space until both MS man Sony basically stopped making their own proprietary hardware and chips and became AMD customers.

 

[DavJay]

Good, likely means newer and better chip architecture. I never gave a fuck about BC. It holds newer hardware and games back. I buy a brand new console to play brand new games and experiences. I don't give a fuck about games I bought and played a while ago.

Quite the opposite for me. My digital library backlog is huge. They better have BC or I'm staying away with 10ft pole.

 

[mckmas8808]

MS and Sony weren't competing against AMD though. AMD wasn't in the condole space until both MS man Sony basically stopped making their own proprietary hardware and chips and became AMD customers.

The price to out-do what they could with AMD just wasn't gonna be worth it. Especially the PowerPC CPU architecture. Like no way that was gonna work long term.

 

[KeplerL2]

Do you know if running stuff through a VM can result into some performance issues? Say, a game running significantly worse on this virtual machine compared to a roughly equivalent PC.

Haven't tried running a game in a VM myself but I think performance loss from virtualization is pretty small these days.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

The price to out-do what they could with AMD just wasn't gonna be worth it. Especially the PowerPC CPU architecture. Like no way that was gonna work long term.

The original move had nothing to do with price, as back even during the 360 era MS was very mindful and created an in house emulation for BC. Now consoles are the same as PC's. The new chips will run the old games at better resiokutions and frames.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Quite the opposite for me. My digital library backlog is huge. They better have BC or I'm staying away with 10ft pole.

Who says mine isn't? I've been 100% digital since the 360/PS3. I just don't care about games I bought , played to death and beat at the expense of REAL TANGIBLE LEAPS with brand new hardware.

 

[DavJay]

Who says mine isn't? I've been 100% digital since the 360/PS3. I just don't care about games I bought , played to death and beat at the expense of REAL TANGIBLE LEAPS with brand new hardware.

You are fortunate to have that much time to play every game you own. I don't. My backlog is in double digits so I'd love to play them on stronger hardware when they are available for a smoother experience without spending extra money. Game graphics aren't getting that much better each gen so sacrificing the previous generation where games are cheaper and I HAVENT had the time to play yet is a must.

 

[demigod]

MS and Sony weren't competing against AMD though. AMD wasn't in the condole space until both MS man Sony basically stopped making their own proprietary hardware and chips and became AMD customers.

Gamecube says hi. Ms never made their own chips.

 

[Three]

Gamecube says hi. Ms never made their own chips.

Not to mention the 360 was AMD (ATI) too before the jump to x86.

 

[mckmas8808]

The original move had nothing to do with price, as back even during the 360 era MS was very mindful and created an in house emulation for BC. Now consoles are the same as PC's. The new chips will run the old games at better resiokutions and frames.

I'm talking about the cost to continuously create new exotic tech in the consoles and also the cost to develop games on that tech was gonna be too high to keep going.

x86 was the only true future.

 

[samoilaaa]

i really hope ps6 will be able to play ps5 disks

 

[Skifi28]

Gamecube says hi.

Bye Felicia.

 

[deriks]

Really doubt it. I can see that some games could be excluded, like Ryse - everyone knows that is just a tech demo. Halo, Gears and Forza will be there

Also, Xbox will turn into a sorta-Steam-thing in the next gen. Kinda already is. The games will be supported in the long run by Microsoft. Hardware philosophy will change too. ROG is the first real step, and chances are that we will see gamer notebooks with something like it in the near future, and even maybe different brands making a full Xbox console

 

[rofif]

What a great podcast. The part "is ps stagnating" at 14min is soooooo right.

 

[Black_Stride]

Do you know if running stuff through a VM can result into some performance issues? Say, a game running significantly worse on this virtual machine compared to a roughly equivalent PC.

Its almost certainly a T1 VM so if anything the console would still outperform the equivalent hardware running through windows.
The Hypervisor should handle which OS is needed for GameX or GameY depending on if its from Steam(Windows), Xbox One, Xbox 360, OG Xbox or Next Gen Xbox.