[Extreme Grain of Salt] Moore's Law is Dead claims that Microsoft is (At Least Partially) Killing Backward Compatibility for Xbox One for Next-Gen

Astray said:
Nothing they can do if devs won't agree to extend the existing Xbox license terms to Xbox PC.


If it's a straight console like the last one then %100 backcompat should be expected, same as PS4>PS5 and Switch>Switch2. There would be nothing that legally blocks a game from playing on the new machines, so there the challenge is only technical.
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Not sure if even that is 100% true. Otherwise we should be able to download the entire ps1/ps2 classics library that used to be available on ps3/psp. I think there was a similar thing going on with psp->vita where the new console didn't host the entire old digital store, even though there was no technical incompatibility. Suggests games still need to be "licensed" for use via BC on newer consoles.
 
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If it's a licensing issue because MS is essentially going PC route, it's going to be very interesting to see how customers will react.

Folks who have been Xbox die-hards will probably feel "betrayed" and everyone else will have little incentive to buy in.

Either way, I am getting some 🍿🍿🍿.
 
Astray said:
1st I will preface this with saying that you should take this with an extreme, extreme grain of salt because he's been extremely hit and miss as a leaker. I even added it to the thread title.

Video link is time-stamped to go directly into the segment, but I'm still listening to whole thing during work, and might drop some other stuff here as I go:


EDIT: Adding my notes as I go here:

1:30:09: Holy shit, devs could go as far as suing MS if they put their Xbox game on a PC.
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This is why I'm on PC. Your library is at the mercy of these console makers.
 
GHG said:
Consoles and PC's are set out as different hardware items in most EULAs.
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But what if it behaves like a proprietary, fixed spec console when a game sku is meant for console, and a regular PC when the game sku is for PC? If they create a launcher and literally switch OS VMs based on what is being launched, then it's not emulation, as the series X/S already does this right?
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
MLiD has a ton of misses and literally says in his video "trust me bro" plus Xbox execs straight up lie
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People love to say this, but what has he badly missed on?

I've listened to his show for years and he gets quite a bit right. He was dead right on all of Intel's troubles, dead right on the PS5 Pro specs.

The only thing that I can think of that he has been mega wrong on, was RTX 5000 availability. He was saying the 5070 Ti and 5070 would have less availability than and that they would never get mass production. 5070s and 5070 Tis are pretty much available anywhere with some (although it's rare) coming close to MSRP. He can also be a little too Pro-AMD at times. For instance, I found him recommending the 9070XT over the 5070 Ti at the same price to be puzzling...although Hardware Unboxed's recent driver video does make this recommendation a little less puzzling.
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Its 100% licensing why Xbox can't just run a console emulator on a PC and call it a day, some of us have talked about this here for quite some time now
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Yep, this is and will always be the legal hurdle. Most publishers aren't going to say yes to this for one simple fact: there is no money to be made AND it potentially eats into their option to resell the game.
 
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viveks86 said:
But what if it behaves like a proprietary, fixed spec console when a game sku is meant for console, and a regular PC when the game sku is for PC? If they create a launcher and literally switch OS VMs based on what is being launched, then it's not emulation, as the series X/S already does this right?
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Yeh it wouldn't be emulation if they just have a dual boot system with 2 options - PC or the Xbox Series interface and then keep everything separate between the two.

For all intents and purposes the Xbox OS side will be what people already get on their Xbox Series consoles and then the PC side is identical to whatever you'd get on an ROG Ally or similar.
 
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I know nothing about legal stuff, but it would be interesting to see how this is rolled out.

Do MS try and pitch this as a console that can run windows instead of a PC running Xbox apps?
Perhaps that creates a legal loop hole for them. If they say it is an Xbox console that CAN run windows apps.
 
Trying Not To Laugh Rooster Teeth GIF by Achievement Hunter
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Its 100% licensing why Xbox can't just run a console emulator on a PC and call it a day, some of us have talked about this here for quite some time now
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So, I'm assuming MS won't pay up the cash to make pubs happy and allow those games on the platform or the problem is more like a bureaucratic thing which would take so much time it's not worth it?
 
Radical_3d said:
I think you nailed it.
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They could ostensibly get around this by making xbox store pc xbox exclusive.
Ie. Make tpm3.0 that only ships in xbox pcs or something, the fun type of drm 🤠
Then sometime down the line windows 15 requires the module to upgrade and they try to get rid of steam that way.
I mean don't tell me this isn't a plan MS would come up with
 
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My advice - hold on to your Series consoles and take good care of them. There are no guarantees that your libraries will be safe & fully playable on future devices (whatever they may be).
 
DenchDeckard said:
I know nothing about legal stuff, but it would be interesting to see how this is rolled out.

Do MS try and pitch this as a console that can run windows instead of a PC running Xbox apps?
Perhaps that creates a legal loop hole for them. If they say it is an Xbox console that CAN run windows apps.
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They might be better off creating a new classification of device for this.

Valve were very careful to ensure they market the Steam Deck as a PC to ensure there would be no issues on this front.
 
GHG said:
Yeh it wouldn't be emulation if they just have a dual boot system with 2 options - PC or the Xbox Series interface and then keep everything separate between the two.

For all intents and purposes the Xbox OS side will be what people already get on their Xbox Series consoles and then the PC side is identical to whatever you'd get on an ROG Ally or similar.
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Exactly! All they need to figure out is the seamless user navigation so they don't see this switch happening.

I don't see how that can have legal hurdles as no lines are being crossed. GTA VI, for example, will just run on the console OS with fixed settings that are tuned, tested and licensed accordingly. If they want to sell a PC version in the future, that will be available too and behave accordingly as well.

There will certainly be some confusion on which version to buy for multiplatform games, but that's no different than dealing with different stores on any platform. If the PC version is better optimized or has more customizability than the console version, then an informed customer will have the choice to go with that and vice versa.

Just spitballing here. I'm sure someone out there can smack down my amateur legal analysis. lol
 
GHG said:
They might be better off creating a new classification of device for this.

Valve were very careful to ensure they market the Steam Deck as a PC to ensure there would be no issues on this front.
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Yeah, I imagine it will be a legal nightmare for MS to get this over the line. I can see them dropping support for legacy titles if they cant work something out.
 
Xbox 360 slim said:
This is why I'm on PC. Your library is at the mercy of these console makers.
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It's why I tried to move to PC. If it wasn't such a shit ecosystem to use I'd still be there. SteamOS gives me hope though. They just need to fix the MP and I don't know what's going on with Steam and Discord but they need to integrate already enough with the feud. Also I wish Epic store would just die already so they can stop with their exclusive store shit.
 
Here is a copy of an actual xbox publisher agreeement


Microsoft or its Affiliates provide a family of computer game and entertainment systems, including the Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, and their successors and variants (collectively, "Xbox One"), a next generation game and entertainment system and its successors and variants (collectively, "Xbox Series"), and an associated proprietary online service (known as "Xbox Live".) Publisher intends to develop and/or publish software products for Xbox Consoles on the terms in this Agreement. The parties agree as follows:
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I read it as successors will be fine

Edit: It's also why a pc launcher is out of the question. Although it may explain the "This is an Xbox" for everything to skirt around it?
 
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Xbox 360 slim said:
This is why I'm on PC. Your library is at the mercy of these console makers.
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It's no different than your library being at the mercy of steam or hardware manufacturers. Everything is good for now and people love Steam, but what if in 10 years Gabe is not at the helm anymore and it turns to shit? Linux won't play your entire library, windows 15 won't play your old games, x86 is dead and all hardware is ARM that won't play your entire library etc. You're always at the mercy of someone as far as I'm concerned and there are no guarantees in any ecosystem.
 
Skifi28 said:
It's no different than your library being at the mercy of steam or hardware manufacturers. Everything is good for now and people love Steam, but what if in 10 years Gabe is not at the helm anymore and it turns to shit? Linux won't play your entire library, windows 15 won't play your old games, x86 is dead and all hardware is ARM that won't play your entire library etc. You're always at the mercy of someone as far as I'm concerned and there are no guarantees in any ecosystem.
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GOG is the exception. Should really use it more - But steam is just so convenient.

I've said this before, but I remember steam being just a DRM tool to activate my cd of half-life 2


wJetxkzNr4fn6Cer.jpg
 
Skifi28 said:
It's no different than your library being at the mercy of steam or hardware manufacturers. Everything is good for now and people love Steam, but what if in 10 years Gabe is not at the helm anymore and it turns to shit? Linux won't play your entire library, windows 15 won't play your old games, x86 is dead and all hardware is ARM that won't play your entire library etc. You're always at the mercy of someone as far as I'm concerned and there are no guarantees in any ecosystem.
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It's better on an open platform. That's for sure.
 
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No one hardly wants to play their Series X/S shit, why would they care about Xbone? It's like sounding the alarm cuz Xbox 360 games won't be playable. Who gives a fuck
 
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powder said:
No one hardly wants to play their Series X/S shit, why would they care about Xbone? It's like sounding the alarm cuz Xbox 360 games won't be playable. Who gives a fuck
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I think it's a big deal for their ecosystem because it just gives everyone one more reason to just leave if they don't get to keep their games. I do agree overall I don't think BC is such a big deal to most people.
 
mayham2199 said:
I think it's a big deal for their ecosystem because it just gives everyone one more reason to just leave if they don't get to keep their games. I do agree overall I don't think BC is such a big deal to most people.
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Yeah, imagine there being someone out there losing their mind cuz they can't play Fuzion Frenzy

dave chappelle GIF
 
Makes sense. Devs signed a contract to license their games for Xbox hardware, and did not specifically agree to having their game run through some some type for emulation on a windows platform. Microsoft would be the company to fuck over the one of the benefits they have over Sony by leaving hardware based backwards compatibility, in their greed to push their customers to adopt a windows gaming OS to compete with Steam. Only problem with that is devs already sell a version of their games on windows.....through Steam.
 
If I remember correctly, Xbox specifically spoke on this topic and suggested that licensing issues could be avoided by ensuring that the "Xbox games" (first or third party) are running natively on their new SoC as opposed to emulating their original environment. In other words, If they are able to run the Series S environment in totality on a new SoC, they may not have to adjust their terms with the developers of previously made games to allow them to be sold and played. This is because all this would take place inside the Series S environment that the developers built their games for.

An example of this in action was when Xbox started producing the Xbox One S, which ran on a new SoC. They didn't have to worry about the legality of selling games that were developed for the original VCR Xbox One due to running the original environment natively on the new chip.

Another example would be the Wii U. If I remember correctly, you could access the entirety of the Wii's digital storefront on the Wii U, due to the fact that the Wii U supported the Wii's environment in totality at althe hardware level. Side effect of this is that a modded Wii U can access the built-in GameCube hardware that is built into the Wii hardware that is built into the Wii U hardware like some form of video game "Inception".

Honestly, I can't specifically remember where I heard this being discussed. It is possible that I'm misremembering and these points were made from someone outside of Xbox. Feel free to push back if I'm getting any of this wrong.
 
Astray said:
1:30:09: Holy shit, devs could go as far as suing MS if they put their Xbox game on a PC.
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Normally, game licenses and "versions" or "ports" (call them what you will) are subject to terms and conditions with the publishers.
These terms state that this version of the game must be used on an Xbox One/Series "console" system that is intended for, or higher-level consoles intended to run One/Series code.

Microsoft could very well force GTA 6 to run on its MS Store AND on new XBOX PC machines and "claim" exclusivity before Steam (which could be a big deal). However, I doubt Take Two would approve.
 
PixelatedBeast said:
Makes sense. Devs signed a contract to license their games for Xbox hardware, and did not specifically agree to having their game run through some some type for emulation on a windows platform. Microsoft would be the company to fuck over the one of the benefits they have over Sony by leaving hardware based backwards compatibility, in their greed to push their customers to adopt a windows gaming OS to compete with Steam. Only problem with that is devs already sell a version of their games on windows.....through Steam.
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I referenced this in my previous post, but if Microsoft can run the Series consoles environment in totality, then they may not be breaking any terms with developers that made games for the Series consoles.

There's precedence for this as you could go into Wii mode on your Wii U and access the OG Wii digital storefront in its totality. My thinking is this wouldn't work if Nintendo was required to go back and rework deals with every publisher that ever made a game for the original Wii, as some of the publishers or developers of the original launch games weren't even around when the Wii U launched. Therefore, there was no entity to sign a new deal with that would have allowed Nintendo to offer said games, if a new license and agreement were necessary.

As long as they aren't emulating the games, Microsoft may be good to go pushing forward with this initiative. Of course, this doesn't speak to if Microsoft and AMD can figure out how to do that on a power envelope that works on a handheld.

Edit: Sega and NEC pulled this off with the Sega Nomad and Turbo Express handheld
 
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ReasonBeing said:
If I remember correctly, Xbox specifically spoke on this topic and suggested that licensing issues could be avoided by ensuring that the "Xbox games" (first or third party) are running natively on their new SoC as opposed to emulating their original environment. In other words, If they are able to run the Series S environment in totality on a new SoC, they may not have to adjust their terms with the developers of previously made games to allow them to be sold and played. This is because all this would take place inside the Series S environment that the developers built their games for.
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So if AMD could in theory make an Xbox CPU that could be used in 3rd party PC builds that could run these "Xbox games" yet also be a regular PC that would solve a lot of issues, no?
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
So if AMD could in theory make an Xbox CPU that could be used in 3rd party PC builds that could run these "Xbox games" yet also be a regular PC that would solve a lot of issues, no?
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If I were to speculate, I would imagine a scenario exactly like the Wii U, where the original Wii circuitry is literally embedded into the Wii U SoC.

Edit: sorry, I misread your post at first. Your suggestion also makes sense, where it worked like the 3DO add-on board.
 
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