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February WrassleGAF |BO-T| And Bo-ing is Half the Battle
- Thread starter Perspicacity
- Start date
FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU!
Shit crowds, shit product.
edit: OMG THAT REIGNS SPEAR ON SHEAMUS WAS AMAZING
El Pescado
Member
I think he did on Raw last week.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
The match involved Dwayne taking a series of naps and then doing his finishers was not exciting unless you have a fetish for chin locks.
Lils was REALLY close to death there. That would have been a million times worse than Death by Charlie Hass
Love how the guy in the black t-shirt behind Lilian is too busy posing for the titantron to realise what's about to happen.
It was alright.
It was still the worst non-Divas match on the card. Even Kofi vs. Ziggler 395830 Times in a Lifetime was better.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
I thought Rock/Punk was about as good as can be expected. Pleased they made Punk look strong.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
That's how the good wrestling matches start though. Lots of fetish holds then it speeds up and then climax.
He took a Rock Bottom onto the announce table. That's a hit. Winner or not, he made Punk look like the most dangerous man on the roster.
Read a few posts above! Actually watched it and was impressed.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I missed last night that they're calling Tensai "Sweet T" now. Too close to WCW-era Ahmed Johnson being Big T.
That and the GTS killed Rock dead, Punk got pretty much a 15 count from that, a pinfall five times over. Between that and how it turned Rock into a drooling vegetable at RAW 1000 (and only the first time he'd been hit by it in a match), he's basically made Punk's finisher the most deadly finisher in the WWE.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
It's a shame he doesn't make it look credible on his own anymore. Once upon a time, Punk stiffed Rey so hard with the GTS, it was like fireworks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-h9OGvTcwE
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know what you people were expecting with Punk v Rock. Punk doesn't draw like Rock, Punk doesn't draw like Cena. I know you can wish and hope, but you got a significant title reign and Punk left his mark on the WWE. It's okay. You can let go now.
Problem is I know he had all the tools to, he just got marginalised for most of his reign in favour of Cena. Who supposedly had a "bad year" where his monthly feuds mainevented PPVs over the WWE title. If that's a bad year for Cena, I do not want to see a good one.
Everyone always makes finishers look more devastating when they are not going to get pinned by them. The only way finishers look good is when they beat people.
John Cena "Tapped" to the Walls of Jericho after Jericho refused a rope break. Doesn't change the fact he still hasn't tapped out to lose a match since 2004.
Str0ngStyle
Member
WWE has gone a long way to booking its shows very similar to Circue de Soleil. Think about it, the actual performers individually are not the reason to go see a Circue show. You go to that because of the whole shebang. WWE is the same which is not a problem in itself I feel.
The problem is that WWE books like this and at the same time, gets mad at the Ryders, Kofi's, Bryan's ect for "not drawing." You've cut the nuts off so so much of the roster that you have no choice but to beg Rock, Brock to come back and do things like keep Cena on TV when truth is if anyone has earned/deserved/needs a break from the show, it's John Cena.
So basically, when the WWE has its down periods and no one is watching, it's painfully obvious whose fault it truly is.
Off topic, I cannot be the only one that fucking hates it when a wrestler does not have a match scheduled, comes out to the ring in wrestling gear for a promo, then gets put in an "impromptu match." Even in Wrestling terms, that shit is fake as hell
They will, though. Cena is proof of that. He's the most forced "face of the company" in their history. The only reason he's a draw now, is because they've over-pushed him to the point of ridiculousness for almost 8 years. You push them for that long, no matter how stale they are, or no matter how fully half your audience hates his guts, and they'll draw numbers.
CM Punk could have become a vastly bigger draw than Cena in 2011, but they didn't run with it. There's plenty of guys on the roster that could take off, if they were only given the chance. But not one person has been given that chance, not even Punk. It's like Vince doesn't even want new stars, he only wants Cena.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Alright so, who is on the side of "can't draw" and who is on the side of "won't draw"?
It's the atmosphere. Even in the 80s there's still only a few names that were household - Hogan, Andre, sometimes Savage and sometimes DiBiase. Nobody's getting that itch to see an old Big John Studd match. Not from casuals. It's all about the atmosphere and people being larger than life.
It's the atmosphere. Even in the 80s there's still only a few names that were household - Hogan, Andre, sometimes Savage and sometimes DiBiase. Nobody's getting that itch to see an old Big John Studd match. Not from casuals. It's all about the atmosphere and people being larger than life.
Frustrated_Grunt
Member
I kind of agree. My only complaint was the 1st half of the match having too many rest holds. If I was only shown the 2nd half of the match, I would have been more prone to praise it, but I still thought it was pretty good.
That's what I said. There won't be anyone bigger than Cena.
Impossible to tell, since no one has been given that chance. At a guess, I think CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are capable of being draws, if given the ball to run with. That sounds like a smark talking, but given that from 2011-2012, they got the biggest reactions despite the Cena focus, it's a good likelihood. That's in spite of them actively trying to stamp out Daniel Bryan around WM 28 for...some reason.
Everyone else, I can't tell, because they've never been given any real spotlight.
Well, there will, because Cena must retire eventually, and Vince must retire eventually. Once Vince loses the "final say" in everything, there's going to be a huge shift. I just hope it happens soon enough that the potential big players on the current roster get to have their spotlight before they're too old.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Bryan and Punk are too small to draw the kind of money that Hogan and Andre would draw. Just from a physical perspective. The closest parallel to Bryan I can think of is Backlund, and while he's revered in certain circles, his ability to bring in money isn't there like others.
I realize it's unfair to compare these two and those two, but it boils down to "what makes money" - and ultimately, nobody is crawling over themselves to see Kane finally beat down Bryan, or Rock finally beat down Punk. People tuned in to Mania 28, and we even saw it on GAF's OT - responses like "I havent watched wrestling in X amount of years but I'll watch this to see Rocky beat the shit out of Cena" same with Brock.
Can't see WWE being around long enough to see Cena retire.
Ratings are plummeting without Rock.
I don't see that. I did see Daniel Bryan being the most over man in 2012, with the most over catchphrase, in spite of every attempt to marginalize him by the WWE. I'm not basing this on some smark fantasy, I'm basing it on how he connected with the crowd and still does.
The size thing doesn't matter that much any more, tastes and standards change. The Attitude Era already had a different body type to the Hogan era, and the modern era also. And Hogan/Andre is a bit steep, that's like saying you have to be a Hogan or Austin to be someone. They're the two biggest wrestlers ever, there's many main event faces of companies below them.
You drop the "lol goats goats goats he so goats" garbage that makes WWE look like bitter children over the fact that a short indie guy got over on his own, you give Bryan a real singles push, and give him YES back, then you see where it goes. What's the worst that could happen? Apparently the idea of anyone becoming more "popular" than Cena is horrifying to Vince and must be fought at all costs.
They're a global company, it takes a lot more than some weak ratings to kill them.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
You gotta be a Hogan or Austin to draw a meaningful amount of money though. Everyone has their roles, and sometimes, someone's role is to play second fiddle for their entire lives.
Thing is, over does not mean drawing money. Are you over or a draw or both? Punk and Bryan are over, and the IWC loves them, but they're not paying the bills.
Honest question, and this goes for EVERYTHING, when was the last PPV you bought due to one match on the card, to the point where if it wasn't on there, you wouldn't have bought it?
Cena vs Lesnar at Extreme Rules was the last money match that drew money from me. Lesnar and Cena are draws, so there it is. That's a sure thing, we expected big things from it and it delivered.
A match that is "surprisingly great" like say, the Sheamus/Big Show feud a few months ago is nice, but it's not a draw. But it's fun to watch and I loved it.
FallingEdge
Member
Cena/Lesnar
Punk/Bryan I and II
Royal Rumble (cheating with this one)
But really, that is about it. Maybe Shield vs Ryback/Bryan/Kane
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Rumble got me too, I'm a big mark for the Rumble itself and it always gets my money. Was Shield vs Ryback/Bryan/Kane their first legit match?
FallingEdge
Member
Yeah, it was their first match. Shield has been booked real well so far. My guess is that they win the tag titles which lead to the split of Kane/Bryan. Shield vs Shaemus/Ryback @ WM? Or Shaemus vs Ryback?
Well, they had multiple draws during the Attitude Era. In fact, that was a time when Austin was the top dog and everyone went crazy to see him, but they all had their own favourites, right down to the low card guys. They came for Austin at first, but stayed for everyone else.
Wrestling isn't in that zone anymore, but it's still a way better way to do it. Instead of trying to make a single face of the company that taps into the pop culture zeitgeist, because that's bloody hard to do (and the only guy in the last decade to come close was CM Punk, Cena sure as shit has never done it), I think having multiple main event guys that might not be a Hogan or Austin alone, but as a roster of big names they combine to make a very attractive product to viewers.
As I said though, no ones knows who might be a draw because no one was ever given that chance since Cena got on top. There might be someone on the roster who has something that taps into the public consciousness, that you have no idea about, and I feel like an open roster that welcomes new main event talent is the only way you don't end up missing such a chance. Imagine if Austin was never really given the ball and the chance for Austin 3:16, the whole shebang passed by.
I understand you're drawing a line between a guy that's over and a guy that's a draw, that's true. But the "come for ____, stay for ____" is the way to go, not "come for ____, go away and never come back because Cena just won't fuck off and he's boring as hell". I know I'm writing essays of posts on this, but wrestling is deeply ingrained in me so it's something I feel strongly about.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
How do we determine who's actually a draw?
Well, we don't, really, WWE do that. Even then it's not a very precise thing. Stuff like ratings, PPV buys are subject to a lot of factors that most people seem to ignore in favour of making sweeping statements about wrestlers based on the limited data.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I think they're trying to make a big roster full of people that they combine. Look at Shield, Cena Ryback Sheamus - we're looking at solid midcard for most of them. They're taking Dolph Ziggler back to his rightful home on the midcard (despite liking the guy, I can see his future easily) and Punk back to midcard as well. There's nothing wrong with a strong midcard, but you can't expect the strong midcard to actually draw money in a match, but as you said - a big combination of a lot of names a lot of people want to see.
And yeah, I agree with you that the way it ought to be is you bring in people with one big draw match, and using Cena/Lesnar is a good one to use as an example. Some people bored with MMA who wanted to see what Lesnar was up to tuned in, and got a few other great matches and hopefully stuck around.
We're the IWC but a good mark is the last PPV you paid money for. This doesn't hold well for the public as we're posting on the internet about wrestling, but it gives us a feel.
You guys are some negative Neds. Maybe it's because of the terrible WCW shows I've been watching, but I enjoyed this show a lot. Way better show than the Rumble.
ADR/Show was about the same quality as their other matches and it was fine besides the hilarious botch at the end.
EC was pretty good. Swagger winning is so weird. Swagger vs ADR as a headlining WM match is so...odd. It makes sense from a character standpoint, but Swagger has been a joke for 2 years and not even on TV for 6 months. At least it wasn't as obvious as the Rumble.
I wasn't so much surprised to see Shield win, but I was surprised that they dominated Cena most of the match and Cena didn't get his big revenge after the match.
Punk/Rock II was MUCH better than the first and I thought it was pretty awesome. Punk was put over about as hard as possible, kicking out of both the Rock Bottom and People's Elbow, and getting a clear 20 second visual pin on Rock. He would have won twice if both refs hadn't been down. He dominated most of the match. You guys are talking about Rock being so blown up, but I thought he was in way better cardio shape than the Rumble where he was completely huffing and puffing literally minutes in and never got his pace up. This was much faster paced, even though it had a lot of stalling and rest holds.
My only real issue with the show is Jerry Lawler's refusal to put any heel over in any way. Shield spend 15 minutes dominating Cena? They suck and haven't proved anything to anyone and they aren't even a good stable. CM Punk was the longest champion in 25 years? He sucks, he's a cheater, no one likes him, Paul Heyman is fat, lol. Dolph Ziggler wins MITB and beat Cena to retain it? He sucks, his girlfriend is a whore, he can't beat anyone. What the fuck, Jerry. He goes past Cole's 2 years of shitting on every face. He goes out of his way to to say the opposite of whatever positive things Cole and JBL say about a guy.
ADR/Show was about the same quality as their other matches and it was fine besides the hilarious botch at the end.
EC was pretty good. Swagger winning is so weird. Swagger vs ADR as a headlining WM match is so...odd. It makes sense from a character standpoint, but Swagger has been a joke for 2 years and not even on TV for 6 months. At least it wasn't as obvious as the Rumble.
I wasn't so much surprised to see Shield win, but I was surprised that they dominated Cena most of the match and Cena didn't get his big revenge after the match.
Punk/Rock II was MUCH better than the first and I thought it was pretty awesome. Punk was put over about as hard as possible, kicking out of both the Rock Bottom and People's Elbow, and getting a clear 20 second visual pin on Rock. He would have won twice if both refs hadn't been down. He dominated most of the match. You guys are talking about Rock being so blown up, but I thought he was in way better cardio shape than the Rumble where he was completely huffing and puffing literally minutes in and never got his pace up. This was much faster paced, even though it had a lot of stalling and rest holds.
My only real issue with the show is Jerry Lawler's refusal to put any heel over in any way. Shield spend 15 minutes dominating Cena? They suck and haven't proved anything to anyone and they aren't even a good stable. CM Punk was the longest champion in 25 years? He sucks, he's a cheater, no one likes him, Paul Heyman is fat, lol. Dolph Ziggler wins MITB and beat Cena to retain it? He sucks, his girlfriend is a whore, he can't beat anyone. What the fuck, Jerry. He goes past Cole's 2 years of shitting on every face. He goes out of his way to to say the opposite of whatever positive things Cole and JBL say about a guy.
Punk has no business being in the mid card. Doesn't matter if he isn't jacked like the Rock, he's born to be main event.
I mean, this isn't a one time thing. Folks didn't get into the cool new thing Stone Cold Steve Austin, tune in to RAW, and immediately love the others, you can see it happening through 1998/1999, crowds go nuts for Austin, but they gradually start going nuts for all sorts of other guys. I'm not sure how you get the new viewers in and keep them long enough to become fans of other roster guys in this day and age, if I did I'd be running WWE. But I do know that you won't get fans of anyone but the forced "top dog" by treating all your young talent like shit. Jobbing Ziggler out, marginalizing the midcard titles, all the petty backhands to Bryan, the second class citizen treatment for Punk, even god damn Ryback, the big mastodon that Vince loves, got crapped on in favour of Cena recently and has lost all his PPV matches since HIAC in October. Wha does a potential new viewer see if he tunes in? Commentary shitting over the likes of Bryan, annoying faces like Miz, irrelevant promos from Cena and Rock, Dolph Ziggler being some weakling that gets crushed by Cena, etc?
This is not a good way to do business. When one of your random viewers knows that, and your head of WWE doesn't see anything wrong with that, I think there's a problem.
The Shield got a great showing last night, they were strong in the match, they won clean, and by god was JBL trying his hardest to put them over (in spite of King). That's how to build heels. I know from experience as a little jimmy many years ago, that dangling the carrot is how you book a heel's comeupence. It was much sweeter to get a final payoff than weekly doses of the heels being beaten up.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Not discounting the rest of what you say, but if Punk had no business in the mid card he'd be main event - even a title reign he should be proud of to make him main event level didn't do it. Is it his fault? Well, who cares whose fault it is - better men than Punk have been 'held down' in the past.
Fuck it man. I'm with you on a lot of this, I really am. That's why I watch NJPW.
FallingEdge
Member
It is kinda crazy to watch old wrestling from the late mid to late 90s and see guys like Malenko, D-Lo, Henry (Sexual Chocolate version) get bigger pops than 95% of the current crowd. When Cyclope took of the mask to reveal that it was Malenko, that place went crazy. I still remember my reaction being hyped as fuck to see him win.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Atmosphere man. A rowdy time, and WWF giving you a legitimate "anything can happen" product will do wonders for a crowd.
Conrad Link
Member
Man I get legit angry at the commentators shitting on guys. I know its silly to be annoyed because its lolwrestling but seriously Jerry King shut the f**k up.
They giggle their way through all the terrible forced 'jokes' then just bury D-Bry into oblivion shitting all over him when he's doing anything. "MAA MAA GOAT HAHAHAHAHAHA."
:|
I know its all Vince but still pisses me off.
They giggle their way through all the terrible forced 'jokes' then just bury D-Bry into oblivion shitting all over him when he's doing anything. "MAA MAA GOAT HAHAHAHAHAHA."
:|
I know its all Vince but still pisses me off.
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