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[Moon_frogger]

Some women think Bayonetta is disgusting and sexist, some think she is an empowered female character.

Women, like GAF, don't have a hivemind.

Regardless, the first and most important step that most men completely miss is to just ask a woman.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I told myself I'd stop but...

It's immaterial that you enjoyed the game as a whole. We're discussing how problematic one specific thing about it was. That really shouldn't be a difficult concept.

It really shouldn't, so I don't know why you cling to this notion that thinking something is problematic means that you think people who enjoy something are bad.

I am a fan of Lovecraft's writing. There is a lot, and I do mean a lot of racist and xenophobic elements in Lovecraft stories. And I can recognize that while still enjoying his work, and I don't think people who enjoy his stories about "degenerate Eskimos" and "mongrel cultists" are racist just because they enjoy his stories. You can acknowledge that the racism is there, and problematic, while still enjoying the work and not being a racist or a xenophobe yourself.

So yeah, it really shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.

So, your argument is that the magical sorceress in a fantasy game full of disproportionate character designs is "mundane" and thus an opportunity for female designs to conform with real life? Um, okay.

Nope, not what I said. For the last time: it's not even about the sorceress at all. But all of what you describe fits Dragon's Crown pretty well. There's more to the game than the sorceress, which you would know if you had played it.

Why do buzz words like "strength" and "strong" even matter? I don't give a fuck about strong characters, I want "good" characters."

Disingenuous bollocks. Everyone knows what is meant by "strong". When people say they want strong female characters they obviously mean characters who are well-written and complex, with strengths and weaknesses, and not necessarily invincible female Terminators. Jesus.

So simply ascribing those attributes to a female character and saying she's better for it seems incredibly condescending, and quite frankly just another form of sexism to me.

LOL

The boss from MGS3 is probably my favorite character in a game, male or female, and "strong" or "independent" are probably the last words i'd use to describe her

Yeah, the Boss can't be described as "strong", because... uh... wait what

When Rambo in First Blood breaks down and starts crying, it's a powerful moment because throughout the entire film the only side of him we've seen was this super strong hardened bad ass. To see the human underneath the facade is the whole point of the film. I can't help but think that if Rambo was replaced with a woman, it would then be judged much more harshly on account "oh so she's a woman and getting emotional, I see what you did." Does no one else see the sexism that exists with that type of attitude?

Except no one has said that. Has anyone said Arya Stark is a sexist character? You see her struggle all the time, be a scared and helpless little girl, etc. Same with Sansa, she's crying often and is a naive little girl. But no one in their right mind ever said these characters were sexist, in fact, they are often cited as examples of great female characters. Same with Ellie in The Last of Us.

No one is saying that a female character showing a moment of weakness is sexist. They're criticizing the overuse of useless damsels in distress or oversexualized fighting "babes" for female characters.

It reminds me of the reaction with the Tomb Raider reboot when they attempted to actually make Lara resemble a human. People were actually upset to see her show emotion,

[citation needed]

 

[veloxStrix]

Here's the TL;DR. Take this image of "Female Armor Bingo" that a feminist blog put together:

You are part of the problem. The rampant use of the Lobster typeface degrades us all. No other typeface has spread so quickly throughout screen and print design.

Edit: Never mind, wrong thread. Thought this was the sexualization of typefaces thread. Carry on.

EDIT EDIT: WOAH WOAH WOAH. I had class with this deBoer fellow 2 semesters ago! Small world. Carry on some more.

 

[hurricanes]

So I saw this "ask women" ---> "not every woman had the same opinion" ---> "only women who agree with me are right", again.

Yup, women are so definitely empowered in some of the most sexist character design, like Dragons Crown, even though I've not seen one single lady who considered the design "empowered", in real life or any female GAF's response.

 

[Scrabble]

Disingenuous bollocks. Everyone knows what is meant by "strong". When people say they want strong female characters they obviously mean characters who are well-written and complex, with strengths and weaknesses, and not necessarily invincible female Terminators. Jesus.





LOL

Yeah, the Boss can't be described as "strong", because... uh... wait what

Except no one has said that. Has anyone said Arya Stark is a sexist character? You see her struggle all the time, be a scared and helpless little girl, etc. Same with Sansa, she's crying often and is a naive little girl. But no one in their right mind ever said these characters were sexist, in fact, they are often cited as examples of great female characters. Same with Ellie in The Last of Us.

No one is saying that a female character showing a moment of weakness is sexist. They're criticizing the overuse of useless damsels in distress or oversexualized fighting "babes" for female characters.


[citation needed]

I didn't mean to imply people want Terminators when they say "strong" either, just that there seem to be inherit restrictions with how to portray female characters since it seems to come under such scrutiny and analysis. It's much harder because people are always taking issue with how something is portrayed. That problem just doesn't exist for male characters. You can show a male character getting beaten and battered to hell and back(many people found the abuse Lara goes through, including the death scenes, too much. In spite of the fact we've seen death animations in games like Dead Space and Resident Evil be far more gruesome and graphic), shirtless men with impractical armor(for whatever artistic and creative reason an artist may have, which doesn't ever require defending if it's a male), weak, have zero agency in the story, be as macho or sexualized as possible, etc and no one will ever care other than to say that's a bad character, because of whatever reasons they may have that exist outside of rules created on how to properly portray the male gender. We don't have bingo charts or tests for which male characters must pass as to not be this or that. We just evaluate the character. That's where in lies the difference between how we examine and evaluate male and female characters, and ultimately where in lies the problem. Instead of countless discussions debating on whether a woman's boobs are too big, if she's too sexualized, or if she passes the arbitrary gender test of not talking about a male during the first ten minutes, or whatever other gender test people have come up with, the grander discussion should be demanding good characters that have depth and are interesting. The problem with one dimensional female characters with no character traits other than boobs isn't that it's sexist, but rather a one dimensional female character with no character traits other than boobs makes for a bad character. A female which serves no purpose other than to be a damsel in distress doesn't make for a bad character because it's sexist, but rather because it's played out and just isn't interesting. Not unlike how a revenge story has been played out, or a twist where "gasp he's your father" makes for an uninspired story. Good female characters will naturally come about as a result of demanding better characters, which debates about boob size and sexualization completely dilute from and miss the point entirely.

And if you actually want to have a discussion, try not being so hostile or dismissive of other opinions. Simply responding with LOL or ending your points with 'jesus' as if it makes a point just kind of makes you seem like an ass. Who is going to want to have a conversation with you? Or come around to your point of view? Any point you may have just gets lost when you come across as so combative.

 

[Zoe]

So I saw this "ask women" ---> "not every woman had the same opinion" ---> "only women who agree with me are right", again.

Yup, women are so definitely empowered in some of the most sexist character design, like Dragons Crown, even though I've not seen one single lady who considered the design "empowered", in real life or any female GAF's response.

Um... There have been women who have said that, in this thread and others.

 

[Lady Gaia]

It's undeniable that many women feel that being sexy makes them feel empowered.

Isn't that also important?

Sure. I'd have agreed that empowerment can be sexy, which can in turn be empowering. It's the assertion that they're more or less synonymous that I took issue with.

 

[The Technomancer]

Sure. I'd have agreed that empowerment can be sexy, which can in turn be empowering. It's the assertion that they're more or less synonymous that I took issue with.

Bingo. Just because sexiness can be empowering doesn't mean that it always is, and it would be easy to use that as an excuse to avoid critical examination.

 

[Tye The Czar]

Some facts:

• The majority of sexualized female characters are created by men. They are often portrayed, at least looks-wise, as their ideal women.
• The majority of womens' ideal female characters are different from men. See: The Hunger Games, Frozen, MLP: Friendship is Magic, Phantasy Star I, Nancy Drew. All written or created by women.
• Female characters are often portrayed in a sexualized way because that's apparently what their primary audience - young white straight males - expects.

 

[Dragonborn]

So I saw this "ask women" ---> "not every woman had the same opinion" ---> "only women who agree with me are right", again.

Yup, women are so definitely empowered in some of the most sexist character design, like Dragons Crown, even though I've not seen one single lady who considered the design "empowered", in real life or any female GAF's response.

A bit ironic since you're kind of doing the same thing no?

 

[Palculator]

Some facts:

• The majority of sexualized female characters are created by men. They are often portrayed, at least looks-wise, as their ideal women.
• The majority of womens' ideal female characters are different from men. See: The Hunger Games, Frozen, MLP: Friendship is Magic, Phantasy Star I, Nancy Drew. All written or created by women.
• Female characters are often portrayed in a sexualized way because that's apparently what their primary audience - young white straight males - expects.

Don't just preface a post as "fact" assuming that makes it correct. You've somehow asserted that male designers tasked with the creation of a female character will most likely end up projecting their own sexual fantasies into them. Each character designer's motivations is something we have so little data on I'd consider it impossible that any assumption about the "majority" of cases can be considered fact. Especially since a character's design is affected not only by his respective designer, but the overall director of the project, the marketing team behind it and many, many other factors outside of a single person's desires or perceived "ideal" woman.

If you actually do have some comprehensive data, feel free to share. I'd appreciate it. Off the top of my head I can only think of Kamiya wanting Bayonetta to look like his ideal woman, but even then she was designed by a female who's gone on record saying she disregarded most of the suggestions she got from Kamiya.

Also why are you comparing sexualized female characters created by men with "ideal" ones created by women? The comparison should be between "ideal" women created by men and "ideal" women created by women or sexualized women created by men and sexualized women created by women. Both genders are capable of both character designs.

EDIT: You also implicetely disregarded any sexualized female as non-ideal, as if any female character that's sexual needs to be stripped of those traits to become closer to "ideal." -- which is 100% opinion, not fact.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

I feel like there isn't a right answer because not only does the subject need to be judged on an individual basis and contextualized, but each person needs to factor in their own opinions and preferences. Take Bayonetta, she is both an empowering female lead as well as being overly sexualized to pander to the male demographic. I don't think her design is sexist, but I am uncomfortable with how overtly her sexuality is displayed. It doesn't keep me from enjoying the game, but I cannot disregard my innate feelings.

 

[timetokill]

Some facts:

• The majority of sexualized female characters are created by men. They are often portrayed, at least looks-wise, as their ideal women.

That seems like an awful lot of assumption for a "fact."

 

[The Technomancer]

That seems like an awful lot of assumption for a "fact."

The second part yeah, I think that's a big assumption. But the first part seems like a safe conclusion given the disparity in the industry unless like, all women are working as character designers

Some facts:

• The majority of sexualized female characters are created by men. They are often portrayed, at least looks-wise, as their ideal women.
• The majority of womens' ideal female characters are different from men. See: The Hunger Games, Frozen, MLP: Friendship is Magic, Phantasy Star I, Nancy Drew. All written or created by women.
• Female characters are often portrayed in a sexualized way because that's apparently what their primary audience - young white straight males - expects.

I think this is, hm, not necessarily inaccurate in some respects, but I think its overly reductive. Its not really useful, is I guess what I'm saying

 

[Nealand Liquor]

That seems like an awful lot of assumption for a "fact."

I also smh at the "Fact" that only young white men enjoy "sexy" females.

 

[zeldablue]

I think in general guys put more emphasis on female body parts while women tend to try and downplay that.

There's a huge difference between a man's woman and a woman's woman in marketing and advertising. Just in general women don't really like seeing themselves as sexual creatures since we're more romantically focused or don't care at all. And we don't want to attract guys who only want sex. We're more socially conditioned for emotional attraction over anything physical.

Just look.

 

[Rwinterhalter]

I think in general guys put more emphasis on female body parts while women tend to try and downplay that.

There's a huge difference between a man's woman and a woman's woman in marketing and advertising. Just in general women don't really like seeing themselves as sexual creatures since we're more romantically focused or don't care at all. And we don't want to attract guys who only want sex. We're more socially conditioned for emotional attraction over anything physical.

Just look.

Are you honestly promoting the notion that women only care for emotional intimacy and don't like sex or sexual things? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

 

[zeldablue]

Are you honestly promoting the notion that women only care for emotional intimacy and don't like sex or sexual things? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

I'm saying we don't view ourselves as floating female body parts. :S

 

[Palculator]

I think in general guys put more emphasis on female body parts while women tend to try and downplay that.

There's a huge difference between a man's woman and a woman's woman in marketing and advertising. Just in general women don't really like seeing themselves as sexual creatures since we're more romantically focused or don't care at all. And we don't want to attract guys who only want sex. We're more socially conditioned for emotional attraction over anything physical.

Just look.

It's also important to note that women react differently to images of conventionally attractive women than men do to those of conventionally attractive men. The fact that women's body-esteem is more negatively affected when presented with attractive women than men's is an important consideration for people bringing up the "but men are sexualized too"-argument. Not that it's a wrong argument in and of itself, but the effects of male sexualization in media is different than that of female sexualization. And considering the prevalence of eating disorders in women I'd argue the latter to have a more negative impact.

Also, each "perfect" person in the article you linked look equally as attractive to me. There's not a huge difference, is there? But I'm aware that article is mere entertainment and not actual research (considering it's done by a lingerie company with no published numbers or method of analysis.)

 

[zeldablue]

Body image is a big problem for men as well.

Sexuality is just something that a lot of women struggle with. The shame and mismatch reactions make me weary.

 

[Idempotent Button]

First let me preface by saying I think most of us can agree that there is definitely a problem in Japanese and Western videogames with oversexualization of female characters, women-as-sex-objects-and-nothing-more.

Whether or not it's a problem depends on the target audience. If I load up some eroge, I'm probably not looking for a politically correct experience.

I mean, you yourself said that it depends on context and culture.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I didn't mean to imply people want Terminators when they say "strong" either, just that there seem to be inherit restrictions with how to portray female characters since it seems to come under such scrutiny and analysis. It's much harder because people are always taking issue with how something is portrayed. That problem just doesn't exist for male characters.

And the reason for that is because there is already a wide variety of male characters out there, whether it's about appearance or personality. Female characters who do not fit these narrow tropes are particularly uncommon in gaming, and that is why they come under such scrutiny.

The problem isn't with individual instance or an individual character. The sexism comes from the pattern being repeated so many times. Much like the "token black guy" trope. A random "token black guy" in a movie doesn't make an individual movie racist, but you can't deny that this may alienate people of colour who are tired of seeing their race being represented in a certain way and who push for change.

 

[TheHollowNight]

I think this has been the first time ever on GAF where the first response was exactly what popped into my brain.

 

[hurricanes]

Um... There have been women who have said that, in this thread and others.

I read most of the thread and didn't see one. If you mean Morrigan Stark she did not said anything "empowering" about female designs in Dragon's Crown, as far as I know.

A bit ironic since you're kind of doing the same thing no?

No? I didn't ignore/downplay women who disagreed with me. I would like to know the reason why she considered the design empowering, if there is one. As far as I know, women consider it sexist/hilarious/sexy/disproportionate but never "empowering".

 

[Endo Punk]

Bingo. Just because sexiness can be empowering doesn't mean that it always is, and it would be easy to use that as an excuse to avoid critical examination.

Agreed. Its not always the case but sexiness should also not be perceived as nudity or lust. One can be sexy without falling into those categories. Gaming still taking baby steps regarding the matter but its getting there.

 

[Zoe]

I read most of the thread and didn't see one. If you mean Morrigan Stark she did not said anything "empowering" about female designs in Dragon's Crown, as far as I know.

She's not the only female on this forum.

I already said it once, but I'll say it again for your convenience. I like playing sexy characters. I find it empowering.I think the sorceress is empowering.

 

[Nzyme32]

To answer the title question, ask a woman. In the end a males perspective (or rather opposite sex) is likely somewhat skewed. Someone of the same gender would be better able to empathise with the character and determine what is empowerment and what is over sexualisation

 

[Thunderstorm910]

Women are sexy, and so making them as sexy as possible in a virtual world makes sense, idk -_-?

Also, I don't believe context matters as much when fetishes are an issue, such as with Fran with her bunny ears, and Bayonetta with her latex suit; (some) women are going to get offended by that character's inherit connection to a sexual fetish, which objectifies them.
Though, on the flip side, the extreme femininity/confidence found in these characters' personalities could very well appeal to (some) women's ideal of a woman, which could strengthen their bond with the character, and could possibly make up for some of the characters' visual "shortcomings".
Anyways, mostly males play these games (or at least that's what the demographics say), and so it makes sense to appeal to their strong sex drive; "sex sells", as they say.

I hope I answered some question, and didn't just go on a rant.

 

[zeldablue]

Derp misread.

 

[Dice//]

Women are sexy, and so making them as sexy as possible in a virtual world makes sense, idk -_-?

Also, I don't believe context matters as much when fetishes are an issue, such as with Fran with her bunny ears, and Bayonetta with her latex suit; (some) women are going to get offended by that character's inherit connection to a sexual fetish, which objectifies them.
Though, on the flip side, the extreme femininity/confidence found in these characters' personalities could very well appeal to (some) women's ideal of a woman, which could strengthen their bond with the character, and could possibly make up for some of the characters' visual "shortcomings".
Anyways, mostly males play these games (or at least that's what the demographics say), and so it makes sense to appeal to their strong sex drive; "sex sells", as they say.

I hope I answered some question, and didn't just go on a rant.

...You kind of fed into why these topics about these issues need to exist.

On Dragon's Crown above, I actually liked the designs for the most part showing off both dichotomies of character body types. Thin, voluptuously curvy, and muscular. And not just having abs, but being muscular to the point it might be unappealing since it's not typically considered 'sexy' for women to be as built-up as the Amazon was. Sure, they show a lot of skin, but it was something I was willing to "overlook" since it got a lot else right. Hell, I even give credit to the Witch's breasts in her walking animation for actually capturing what real breasts 'move' like (albeit oversized), whereas other games just make some half-assed jiggle/bounce animation.

 

[terrene]

I told myself I'd stop but...

Since you still are being incredibly rude, and still making no sense in any way, you could at least be consistent, and stop engaging with me when you said you would. If there's anything the internet needs less of, it's bad arguments made by rude people.

It really shouldn't, so I don't know why you cling to this notion that thinking something is problematic means that you think people who enjoy something are bad.

I am a fan of Lovecraft's writing. There is a lot, and I do mean a lot of racist and xenophobic elements in Lovecraft stories. And I can recognize that while still enjoying his work, and I don't think people who enjoy his stories about "degenerate Eskimos" and "mongrel cultists" are racist just because they enjoy his stories. You can acknowledge that the racism is there, and problematic, while still enjoying the work and not being a racist or a xenophobe yourself.

There's a very simple reason why that example is not the same.

For that example to follow, and for you to be excusing Lovecraft's readers from culpability, you would have to be saying, "it's okay for Lovecraft's readers to enjoy, specifically, all the racism in his books. That doesn't mean that his readers are racist - they just like to take in racist ideas once in awhile, like the racist parts in this book!"

I'll leave aside how you are drawing a comparison between putting Dragon Crown's sorceress in sexy poses and racism, which is not sex-negative at all (besides being hilarious -- as if being racist-negative existed).

You once again are talking about enjoying a whole work (I like some Lovecraft myself) when I am talking about enjoying the one piece of it that you are deeming problematic -- the sexy poses in Dragon's Crown. Which you went on and on about, sounding a lot like the evangelical Christians I grew up with. You might consider yourself super open-minded and not like this being pointed out. But evangelical Christians who hatefully go on about girls who act "slutty" aren't magically absolved from appearing judgmental and prudish by following up with, "but I love those girls, otherwise!"

Nope, not what I said. For the last time: it's not even about the sorceress at all. But all of what you describe fits Dragon's Crown pretty well. There's more to the game than the sorceress, which you would know if you had played it.

I know what I said fits Dragon's Crown, because I played it, and I don't care what you said about things besides the sorceress, because I'm calling you out for what you said about the sorceress. Oh, and do me a huge favor and have this actually be "the last time." Like you said it was before. If you really find that you can't resist posting more bile in my direction, PM me instead, because this is far from being a productive discussion.

You are part of the problem. The rampant use of the Lobster typeface degrades us all. No other typeface has spread so quickly throughout screen and print design.

Edit: Never mind, wrong thread. Thought this was the sexualization of typefaces thread. Carry on.

EDIT EDIT: WOAH WOAH WOAH. I had class with this deBoer fellow 2 semesters ago! Small world. Carry on some more.

I find the use of the Lobster typeface empowering! Just because you can't handle its curves doesn't mean I have to have my agency taken away to deal with your fear of strongly typed characters.

 

[hurricanes]

She's not the only female on this forum.

I already said it once, but I'll say it again for your convenience. I like playing sexy characters. I find it empowering.I think the sorceress is empowering.

My apologies. I didn't know that you are a lady. I stand corrected, although I do not agree with you.

 

[Lemondish]

I asked three people. I asked my girlfriend and she said:

It's like scifi. An empowered female character is what I'm pointing at when I say it.

I asked my best friend, also a woman, who gave me loads of examples in media but made note of how sexuality can be empowering. Nothing mind blowing there.

I then asked one of my close male friends. He's not exactly a deep thinker. His response takes the cake, though. At least for being hilarious.

I want to bang sexualized female characters. Empowered characters make me feel bad about wanting to bang them even if they're hot because, you know, there's like more to them. They're real people sometimes.

 

[Tye The Czar]

Don't just preface a post as "fact" assuming that makes it correct. You've somehow asserted that male designers tasked with the creation of a female character will most likely end up projecting their own sexual fantasies into them. Each character designer's motivations is something we have so little data on I'd consider it impossible that any assumption about the "majority" of cases can be considered fact. Especially since a character's design is affected not only by his respective designer, but the overall director of the project, the marketing team behind it and many, many other factors outside of a single person's desires or perceived "ideal" woman.

If you actually do have some comprehensive data, feel free to share. I'd appreciate it. Off the top of my head I can only think of Kamiya wanting Bayonetta to look like his ideal woman, but even then she was designed by a female who's gone on record saying she disregarded most of the suggestions she got from Kamiya.

Also why are you comparing sexualized female characters created by men with "ideal" ones created by women? The comparison should be between "ideal" women created by men and "ideal" women created by women or sexualized women created by men and sexualized women created by women. Both genders are capable of both character designs.

EDIT: You also implicetely disregarded any sexualized female as non-ideal, as if any female character that's sexual needs to be stripped of those traits to become closer to "ideal." -- which is 100% opinion, not fact.

I do wish I had hard evidence to back up what I believe.

Anyway, let's look at George Kamitani's Dragon's Crown response to Kotaku's criticism.

I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won’t stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion.

I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them. I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art’s appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs.

Here's some sources of DC's inspiration:
http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Since you still are being incredibly rude

How so? My last post to you had nothing rude whatsoever.

, and still making no sense in any way, you could at least be consistent, and stop engaging with me when you said you would. If there's anything the internet needs less of, it's bad arguments made by rude people.

Now that is incredibly rude.

. Which you went on and on about, sounding a lot like the evangelical Christians I grew up with. You might consider yourself super open-minded and not like this being pointed out. But evangelical Christians who hatefully go on about girls who act "slutty" aren't magically absolved from appearing judgmental and prudish by following up with, "but I love those girls, otherwise!"

And this also. Still calling me a sex-negative prude for having a different opinion, and now comparing me to evangelical Christian. Way more insulting than anything I've said so far.

If you really find that you can't resist posting more bile in my direction,

"Bile". Wow. Okay.

Oh, and do me a huge favor and have this actually be "the last time." Like you said it was before.

Done and done. I cannot abide that much hypocrisy.

 

[kyser73]

Slightly OT but those Dragon's Crown designs look like Simon Bisley's 2000AD work in Slaine and especilly Terr-1 (Terri) from books 3&4 of The ABC Warriors, only taken to a ridiculous extreme. Pretty ghastly artstyle IMO.

 

[terrene]

And this also. Still calling me a sex-negative prude for having a different opinion, and now comparing me to evangelical Christian. Way more insulting than anything I've said so far.

If you just had "a different opinion," why would I jump to making the comparison with evangelican Christians? Breathlessly counting the ways of video game character smuttiness is specifically evangelical Christian.

Let me help you with that comparison. I'm going to post a snippet of complaints about Dragon's Crown from ChristCenteredGamer.com followed by a snippet of your complaints.

Source: https://www.christcenteredgamer.com/index.php/reviews/47-handhelds/vita/5582-dragon-s-crown-vita

The female characters in this game suffer from abnormally large breasts, thighs, and buttocks. They are also dressed so provocatively that a sneeze could cause a wardrobe malfunction. ...The sorceress [has] double J bust size and a lace dress that was extremely low cut. It gets even worse. In the dungeons I encountered a mermaid with a human buttocks, a wounded female monk warrior spread eagle with her chastity belt holes exposed, and lastly, a bound attractive female spirit wearing a thin semi transparent outfit.

The issue with the sorceress* isn't that her breasts are large, and people weren't objecting to the mere largeness of her breasts. It's the whole package; not only is each breast larger than her head yet her waist is smaller than her head, but the cleavage is also absurd and her posture is so distorted as to be centaur-like (so that her breasts and her ass stick out... speaking of stick, holding the stick in her buttcrack looks ehh), and her animations (running and falling among others) are just so ridiculously exaggerated as to make sure the boobs stick out.

I don't care what you have to say about how unfair this comparison is. I also don't care if you're rude when you post that my opinions are "asinine and stupid" and type "LOL" and "wow" and "Jesus." instead of something substantive. I expect defensiveness from people who are being called out.

 

[Thunderstorm910]

...You kind of fed into why these topics about these issues need to exist.

On Dragon's Crown above, I actually liked the designs for the most part showing off both dichotomies of character body types. Thin, voluptuously curvy, and muscular. And not just having abs, but being muscular to the point it might be unappealing since it's not typically considered 'sexy' for women to be as built-up as the Amazon was. Sure, they show a lot of skin, but it was something I was willing to "overlook" since it got a lot else right. Hell, I even give credit to the Witch's breasts in her walking animation for actually capturing what real breasts 'move' like (albeit oversized), whereas other games just make some half-assed jiggle/bounce animation.

The "idk, -_-?" makes it a half-joke.

 

[Dice//]

If you just had "a different opinion," why would I jump to making the comparison with evangelican Christians? Breathlessly counting the ways of video game character smuttiness is specifically evangelical Christian.

Let me help you with that comparison. I'm going to post a snippet of complaints about Dragon's Crown from ChristCenteredGamer.com followed by a snippet of your complaints.

Source: https://www.christcenteredgamer.com/index.php/reviews/47-handhelds/vita/5582-dragon-s-crown-vita


I don't care what you have to say about how unfair this comparison is. I also don't care if you're rude when you post that my opinions are "asinine and stupid" and type "LOL" and "wow" and "Jesus." instead of something substantive. I expect defensiveness from people who are being called out.

What are you trying to argue exactly? That she isn't a sexualized character?
Her tits are ridiculous. Hell, most people can admit that, though I'm sure there's varying opinion on how much they 'like' it. Is it only Christian prudes who can take issue with her ridiculous proportions? Hell, even some male players found her in poor taste.

I think I'll always appreciate the Amazon as at least a rare representation of a super-muscular woman, a rare sight if there was one. But the Sorceress doesn't take the idea of sexy to an 11, she's hentai-ridiculous. And the game doesn't really stop it there.

http://gamingrunts.com/wp-content/uploads/Misc2013/dragons-crown-sorceress-art-1.jpg
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/32/1375839115-6.jpg
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/32/1375842749-9.jpg

Men are rarely depicted in the same, sexualized manner, and that's largely part of the issue. Men are clearly the target audience of sexualized imagery and women players are expected to stay silent or just ignore it or they're prudes. But it's not about being prudish; there are many ways to draw women and many ways to make them sexy; it doesn't have to be just tons of voluptuous women in teeny-tiny clothes/armor.

 

[Giruvegan]

Your comparison of the Viera to indigenous peoples living in the Amazon doesn't work, given those were remote/isolated communities with little/no access to adequate resources to use on elaborate clothes or stuff like that. The Yanomami, one of the most famous communities you referenced, started to adopt some westernized clothing once they were able to trade for/acquire it.

The Viera are pretty well connected to Ivalice society, clearly trade for goods, and even more clearly spend effort and resources crafting ornate clothes that serve no practical purpose beyond highlighting their sexuality.

You can be creative as all get out with designing cultures in fantasy settings (as well as the settings in general), but you have to make an effort to give reason to the things you do in your setting (unless you are something like Adventure Time where that not being the case is the point)

edit: To be clear, I would gladly give FFXII (a game I really enjoy, for the record) a pass if they had included some kind of in-universe justification for it. Didn't even need to be a good one!

Fran changes her wardrobe after she leaves The Wood and meets Balthier. This is her shortly before that. ( It says so in the caption of the art book ) :
http://imgur.com/BD7mDZS

Speculating that her final form is based on the Wood Warders and Archers of Eryut and ( maybe some of the embellished aesthetic of Archades since, the picture above suggests that she's clearly been there ) :

There's only one time I can think of in the game that anyone ever acknowledges the way she dresses and it's an NPC. Someone tells Vaan a story about how they accidently ran into her and she seemed unfazed even though the person accidently did this in a suggestive way. The dialogue suggests that other people are more concerned with it than she is which kind of sounds like conscious choice for her to wear what she does.

It's not like Fran is a depthless character there strictly for sexual gaze. Ashe wears some pretty attention-grabbing short shorts that leave pretty little to the imagination. It's weird how people tend to always single out Fran, idgi

http://imgur.com/5FVtzs5

Sorry, if anyone else mentioned this but, I had to say something.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What are you trying to argue exactly? That she isn't a sexualized character?
Her tits are ridiculous. Hell, most people can admit that, though I'm sure there's varying opinion on how much they 'like' it. Is it only Christian prudes who can take issue with her ridiculous proportions? Hell, even some male players found her in poor taste.

It's funny, because while I was playing the game at home, my boyfriend was receiving a few (male) friends for board games, and when they looked at my screen they said "wow this game looks beautiful" and then wanted to check the art book and... then they all started cringing. "WTF is that?" and "Wow so much T&A, that's too much". Then I entered the in-game shop and they're all "Seriously? Even the shopkeeper is half-naked with giant tits?" and "The artist is a perv or thinks we're pervs or something?" and so on. I just laughed.

In any case, my description of the sorceress was simply in response to someone who complained that criticism of her was about shaming large-breasted women which do exist IRL. Which is of course ridiculous, because the sorceress doesn't look like a real person whatsoever, large breasts or not.

I think I'll always appreciate the Amazon as at least a rare representation of a super-muscular woman, a rare sight if there was one.

Yeah that's true, I do like that too. Too bad she wears the dreaded bikini chainmail though. Honestly, if she had worn leather/fur/clothing instead of metal, I'd think the design would be just fine. Fighting while almost naked has a precedent after all. But notice how the half-naked, Conan-like male barbarian doesn't wear a metal loincloth. Because that shit would be damn chafing and uncomfortable. xD

That, along with this one (possibly NSFW), are really the creepiest ones. And yet the monk is fully covered, so go figure the "prudishness".

Men are rarely depicted in the same, sexualized manner, and that's largely part of the issue. Men are clearly the target audience of sexualized imagery and women players are expected to stay silent or just ignore it or they're prudes. But it's not about being prudish; there are many ways to draw women and many ways to make them sexy; it doesn't have to be just tons of voluptuous women in teeny-tiny clothes/armor.

Yeah I've been trying to say this over and over, but no luck.