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Final Fantasy XIII |OT|

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cosmicblizzard said:
Well, we'll know when we get to the GOTY voting. I still think it'll be in the top 10 or at least top 15.
Probably, but in a Modern Warfare 2 sort of way: so many people played it that it would be really hard for it to not crack the top 10/15.

The moment I saw The Witcher mentioned I knew this thread would turn into a W v. J clusterfuck. I was right! :lol
 

Amir0x

Banned
Hm, It's not about West vs. East. It's about good writing vs. bad. ME2 keeps getting mentioned, I think, because it is similarly linear to FFXIII, and it is similarly character-driven to FFXIII. These two features combined are not necessarily typical in RPGs, and as they're both fairly recent releases it makes sense to compare them directly.

Demon's Souls, I think, has fine writing and an interesting world... the story isn't in your face, however.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
Fimbulvetr said:
That's not exactly true, since one of the game's major focus(lol)es is to get those characters to start trusting Shep and work with instead of just working for him.

Yeah, I meant to mention the loyalty missions. It's actually even better now that you mention that though! The characters open up more after you do something important for them. The ME1 characters start off pretty open, which makes sense.
 
icarus-daedelus said:
Probably, but in a Modern Warfare 2 sort of way: so many people played it that it would be really hard for it to not crack the top 10/15.

The moment I saw The Witcher mentioned I knew this thread would turn into a W v. J clusterfuck. I was right! :lol

I wish there was some way to gauge whether either side is a vocal minority or not. One thing is for sure; this game is getting A LOT less hate outside of Gaf, at least from what I've seen.
 
Amir0x said:
Hm, It's not about West vs. East. It's about good writing vs. bad. ME2 keeps getting mentioned, I think, because it is similarly linear to FFXIII, and it is similarly character-driven to FFXIII. These two features combined are not necessarily typical in RPGs, and as they're both fairly recent releases it makes sense to compare them directly.

A better comparison for level structure would be with X-2(not for story obviously :lol ).
 

Amir0x

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
I wish there was some way to gauge whether either side is a vocal minority or not. One thing is for sure; this game is getting A LOT less hate outside of Gaf, at least from what I've seen.

Why would it matter if one side was the minority or not? What is this obsession with figuring out which side has more supporters?

It's a game discussion, not a political campaign. Our points should live and die on their own merits.

I never care if I'm in the minority. I frequently have minority opinions. The important thing is to speak with conviction and believe what you say. And if you have points that others can agree with, fine. If you don't, then maybe you'll learn something.

I learn stuff from people I disagree with all the time.
 
cosmicblizzard said:
I wish there was some way to gauge whether either side is a vocal minority or not. One thing is for sure; this game is getting A LOT less hate outside of Gaf, at least from what I've seen.
Well, GAF is more critical about everything. Sometimes to a fault. But I admit that a lot of the criticism for this game seems very upfront, whereas with most games the backlash usually occurs later, often within LTTP threads.

I guess it's more Rahxephon91 v. sensible people, then? Because I've not played ME2 but it would have to have pretty damn bad writing to be comparable to FF13.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I would think it's safe to assume that the only thing that certainly is a minority view is the idea that ME2's writing isn't infinitely better than FFXIII's. But who cares! I just would like to hear the how and why's. Rahphexon's point was not very convincing.
 
Amir0x said:
I would think it's safe to assume that the only thing that certainly is a minority view is the idea that ME2's writing isn't infinitely better than FFXIII's. But who cares! I just would like to hear the how and why's. Rahphexon's point was not very convincing.

I think Rahp is concentrating only on plot while you are talking about writing as a whole(dialogue, characters, themes, etc.).
 

Amir0x

Banned
I mean, the plot itself goes nowhere in ME2. The actual writing, dialogue and characterization, which intends to be the meat of both games, is only actually good in one of them.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Firestorm said:
It's a game that overstays its welcome, so yeah, there are more "haters" as the game goes on and they start getting fed up with points that were only minor annoyances before.

That's true. I started a replay but I don't feel like going through the tedium again... don't feel like getting the Platinum trophy either.
 
charsace said:
Evolution into an action game? There is no role playing or side quests at all and I am 15 hours in. To me it seems like the devs were running out of time and cut corners.

It seemed polished to me. I also think that if this were billed as an action game, everyone would wonder where they got-off making such ludicrous statements.
 
icarus-daedelus said:
I guess it's more Rahxephon91 v. sensible people, then? Because I've not played ME2 but it would have to have pretty damn bad writing to be comparable to FF13.
Well I don't know whats not sensible to think ME'2s writing isn't the bom digity where they both have the same problems. Crappy characters and weak plot.

And I don't know to convince you, so I wont. Your argument seems to be because ME2 doesn't suger coat the genphage its better. Thats not very convincing to me ,because while thats true, ME2 still likes to beat you over the head with how "grey" it is. As if the game is proud that its tackling mature subjects. That seems to be the problem with most story focused games. At the end of the day its a pretty simple thing. "Alien race was destructive so we had to get fix that, but they are still lifefroums". I get it, I don't need to beat over the head with it. So its not sugar coated but I don't see how that makes somehow good.

If you think the characters are believable, that's fine. I don't think so. Yes I get they are in a eventful situation ,but I see no reason for the characters to be so open and so blunt with how they talk about themselves. The only reason is because its a game. I don't think any Bioware game allows their characters to actually unfold and be told in a realistic way. They all develop in the same Bioware gameplay model. If I was in a military squad I don't think i would just tell my commander about my daddy problems because he asked me. Theres just no sensible reason why they divulge this information besides the fact that this is a game and conversation is part of the gameplay. On top of that many characters like to drop a badass line for the sake of it.

Besides the characters in Mass Effect all have in your face personalities. Kanye West look a like is the military guy and you figure that out mostly because he tells you. Jack also likes to announce that's she angry chick and later instead of subtlely showing a change she just tells you she regrets things.

Fine I will agree with you that the script in ME 2 is better. So I guess it was convincing. But I'm not sure if the game is actually better told and I guess I'm just insane
 

papercut

Member
This game is absolutely terrible. I'm six hours in and I'm only playing because it supposedly gets better after 20 hours. 20 hours! That's an entire good game's worth of play time.

Sigh.
 

Amir0x

Banned
The problem is Rahphexon is that you are not beat over the head with it. In fact, I don't even know how you would interpret that to be the case. In ME1, we are presented with basic lines of the genophage story (fairly black and white); in ME2, the details are expanded and, through further exploration, we are allowed to see where the nuance is.

The genophage is not the center of the story, so it is not constantly being repeated or molested in conversation after conversation, like the Focus and L'Cie/Fal'Cie crap in FFXIII. Indeed, the genophage mostly comes up in conversations with Krogans and Mordin, which is logical, since one had a hand in sculpting a modifier to the genophage, and the other is the race who was its test subject. Nonetheless, Krogan and Mordin scenes do not even take up 10 percent of the game.

The problem is what you're doing is WISHING they're equivalent. You're wishing that you can justify the badness of FFXIII's plot and characters by dragging a game which is clearly, indisputably superior in writing and characterization, because it makes sense in some point you apparently think you have.

I can, however, list actual substantive reasons why the writing of FFXIII is bad. You seem incapable of giving examples of "being beat over the head", instead choosing to focus on vague problems with game having moral ambiguity. As if moral ambiguity is a problem, something the game chooses to lord over its fanbase as if a pretentious aristocrat!

It's ridiculous. You should just admit you have a problem with moral complexity, and are incapable of distinguishing between bad writing and good. If you were capable, there is no feasible way of saying ME2 and FFXIII are equivalent on this level.

Gameplay wise, sure, that's open for debate. Writing? No.
 
Amir0x said:
Why would it matter if one side was the minority or not? What is this obsession with figuring out which side has more supporters?

It's a game discussion, not a political campaign. Our points should live and die on their own merits.

I never care if I'm in the minority. I frequently have minority opinions. The important thing is to speak with conviction and believe what you say. And if you have points that others can agree with, fine. If you don't, then maybe you'll learn something.

I learn stuff from people I disagree with all the time.

Oh I agree completely. I don't think popularity should give either side more "ammo" but some people treat it as such and fail to discuss the demerits and merits of a game because of it. I'm just genuinely curious.

Edit: I'd also like to say that it's very hard to discuss things objectively when either side isn't willing to listen. I have a lot to say about the writing but I don't know if there would be any point.
 

Firestorm

Member
biggersmaller said:
I thoroughly enjoyed this FF. Its easy-going tunnel-play is relaxing after a hard day's work. Not that I don't like the past games either.

It's evolution, not revolution people.
See this is what I thought until I hit Chapter 10 and then 11. Chapter 11 is NOT what you want to play for an hour after a hard day's work. Believe me. Fucking bullshit difficulty spike.

Chapter 10 was just bad.
 

papercut

Member
The biggest problem is that I've moved beyond the typical Japanese archetypes that this game is shoving down my throat. Names like Snow and Lightning. Lousy plot. Whiny characters. Totally vapid personas. And then there's the endless corridor of annoying enemies that they're trying to pass off as gameplay.

And the worst part is that Square used to be good at this! I mean, what happened? How do you refine an RPG formula only to make it worse?
 

Cep

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
Oh I agree completely. I don't think popularity should give either side more "ammo" but some people treat it as such and fail to discuss the demerits and merits of a game because of it. I'm just genuinely curious.

Edit: I'd also like to say that it's very hard to discuss things objectively when either side isn't willing to listen. I have a lot to say about the writing but I don't know if there would be any point.

You will always find people willing to listen, but there is a dearth of people who are willing to treat anyone else's argument with any respect.

And that is before factoring the fact that they may just flat out disagree with you.
 

Firestorm

Member
Well, in Japan the "haters" and "defenders" seem to be about even:
biphyo.png
 
The problem is Rahphexon is that you are not beat over the head with it.
The same sides of the argument are restated at every instance it is brought up. I would say thats beating me over the head.

The genophage is not the center of the story, so it is not constantly being repeated or molested in conversation after conversation, like the Focus and L'Cie/Fal'Cie crap in FFXIII. Indeed, the genophage mostly comes up in conversations with Krogans and Mordin, which is logical, since one had a hand in sculpting a modifier to the genophage, and the other is the race who was its test subject. Nonetheless, Krogan and Mordin scenes do not even take up 10 percent of the game.
Then why use LiCie as something comparable to the genophage here. Those are the most important parts of XIII"s story. Of course Focus and Fal'Cie are going to be repeated a lot. They are the main thing in the story.
The problem is what you're doing is WISHING they're equivalent.
I'm not wishing anything. I could care less if the plot is bad in either game.
You're wishing that you can justify the badness of FFXIII's plot and characters by dragging a game which is clearly, indisputably superior in writing and characterization, because it makes sense in some point you apparently think you have.
I would not so its indisputably when it comes to characterization or plot. Fine the actual writing is better. I don't care. Fine I get that ME2 is a lot sophisticated and has more mature handling when it comes to what people say. But plot and characterization? I don't think you can say that's a fact. Espically when both fail at the end. At least 1 went somewhere.
I can, however, list actual substantive reasons why the writing of FFXIII is bad. You seem incapable of giving examples of "being beat over the head", instead choosing to focus on vague problems with game having moral ambiguity.
How about the long conversation between Mordin and his assistant where they say the same things we already know. Or when you talk to Mordin, he says the same general things that we already know. The game doesn't need to keep restating the argument whenever it comes up.
It's ridiculous. You should just admit you have a problem with moral complexity, and are incapable of distinguishing between bad writing and good. If you were capable, there is no feasible way of saying ME2 and FFXIII are equivalent on this level.
I don't think so as I'm not claiming any of these are awesome examples of well told narratives.

I'm too stupid and insane to continue arguing with you but I will at least say what I think are well told narratives.

Children of Men(the movie)-Leo's personality is well told through how he says things and talks. Not him announcing. On top of that the world and the problems in the world are told in very casual conversation between normal people in a way that its not exposition, or doesn't feel like they are explaining everything to the viewer. Its theme also isn't pretty much stated like in stuff such as FFXIII.

Ghost in the Shell SAC 2nd Gig-Its just kind of multi-layerd. I can't explain why I think its one of the best written anime out there.
 
Rahxephon91 said:
Well I don't know whats not sensible to think ME'2s writing isn't the bom digity where they both have the same problems. Crappy characters and weak plot.

And I don't know to convince you, so I wont. Your argument seems to be because ME2 doesn't suger coat the genphage its better. Thats not very convincing to me ,because while thats true, ME2 still likes to beat you over the head with how "grey" it is. As if the game is proud that its tackling mature subjects. That seems to be the problem with most story focused games. At the end of the day its a pretty simple thing. "Alien race was destructive so we had to get fix that, but they are still lifefroums". I get it, I don't need to beat over the head with it. So its not sugar coated but I don't see how that makes somehow good.

If you think the characters are believable, that's fine. I don't think so. Yes I get they are in a eventful situation ,but I see no reason for the characters to be so open and so blunt with how they talk about themselves. The only reason is because its a game. I don't think any Bioware game allows their characters to actually unfold and be told in a realistic way. They all develop in the same Bioware gameplay model. If I was in a military squad I don't think i would just tell my commander about my daddy problems because he asked me. Theres just no sensible reason why they divulge this information besides the fact that this is a game and conversation is part of the gameplay. On top of that many characters like to drop a badass line for the sake of it.

Besides the characters in Mass Effect all have in your face personalities. Kanye West look a like is the military guy and you figure that out mostly because he tells you. Jack also likes to announce that's she angry chick and later instead of subtlely showing a change she just tells you she regrets things.

Fine I will agree with you that the script in ME 2 is better. So I guess it was convincing. But I'm not sure if the game is actually better told and I guess I'm just insane
I'm sure these are valid complaints, but FF13 is so poorly written that I have a hard time believing the two are anywhere near the same level. Also, w.r.t. characters divulging more information than they should, that is a common cliche in gaming and not necessarily always a bad one.
 

Cep

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
I don't think 2075 votes out of 1.6+ million is a fair measure.

I do not think anyone really is taking it seriously. Stuff like that is barely more valid than anecdotal evidence.

Although, 2000 is an adequate sample size for something like this (having trouble remembering stats so do not take me on that).
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Fimbulvetr said:
@Firestorm: Damn, that makes this the most polarizing FF game of all time then?
I feel like XII was more polarizing, because some people hated that game... while others really loved it.

Are the defenders even over the moon with XIII though? It's not polarizing.. there seems to be a consensus: XIII has flaws. Whether those flaws make it a completely terrible game, or an enjoyable but flawed masterpiece, is what people don't agree on...
 

Cep

Banned
BocoDragon said:
I feel like XII was more polarizing, because some people hated that game... while others really loved it.

Are the defenders even over the moon with XIII though? It's not polarizing.. there seems to be a consensus: XIII has flaws. Whether those flaws make it a completely terrible game, or an enjoyable but flawed masterpiece, is what people don't agree on...

12 was not polarizing. Most of the fanbase flat out hate that game.
 
Cep said:
Although, 2000 is an adequate sample size for something like this (having trouble remembering stats so do not take me on that).
The sample size is not really the problem, it's the method of sampling. The fact that only people who'd take the time out to log on to Amazon.co.jp are included is the problem, although I don't know if there are any better measures available other than calling up people who purchased the game there or something.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Cep said:
12 was not polarizing. Most of the fanbase flat out hate that game.
So wrong. That game had it's diehard fans, even here on cynical GAF. Amirox and Himuro, XIII-loathers... they liked XII from what I remember.

XIII will take that "most hated FF" crown as time goes on, I am sure of it.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
BocoDragon said:
So wrong. That game had it's diehard fans, even here on cynical GAF. Amirox and Himuro, XIII-loathers... they liked XII from what I remember.

Eh, pretty sure Himu didn't care much for XII.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Kagari said:
Eh, pretty sure Himu didn't care much for XII.
From yesterday's FFXII: International thread

Himuro said:
I WANT THIS SO BAD.

Have fun guys!

Also I seem to remember him enjoying it back upon release. I'm sure if he reads this he'll have some caveat about he didn't like this or that... but I'd say he generally enjoyed it.
 
Cep said:
I do not think anyone really is taking it seriously. Stuff like that is barely more valid than anecdotal evidence.

Although, 2000 is an adequate sample size for something like this (having trouble remembering stats so do not take me on that).

Yeah I don't really remember stats at all but you're probably right. I honestly don't even know why I care at this point.

I'm more curious about stuff like this with XII. How many JRPG-only people liked it? How many non-FF fans only enjoyed XII? Hell, how many non-JRPG fans enjoyed XII?

Now that would be a fun case study.
 
XII has a lot of fans on GAF, yes, but if you look to other sources you'll find many, many people who hated it.

Also, I think Himuro about face'd at some point because some pages back he listed 12 as one of his favorites in the series.
 

Cep

Banned
BocoDragon said:
So wrong. That game had it's diehard fans, even here on cynical GAF. Amirox and Himuro, XIII-loathers... they liked XII from what I remember.

XIII will take that "most hated FF" crown as time goes on, I am sure of it.

No, I am pretty sure I am right.

I am one of FF12's most die-hard defenders, and I sure as hell know when people are disagreeing with me.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
icarus-daedelus said:
Also, I think Himuro about face'd at some point because some pages back he listed 12 as one of his favorites in the series.

Who wouldn't about face on XII? We used to say about that game "awesome gameplay... but the big flaw is the storyline fell apart by the end".

XIII's whole plot falls apart in Chapter 10 and crashes worse than XII ever did! By comparison, XII hardly failed at all :lol
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Unknown Soldier said:
It's not different enough to magically erase all the things most FFXII-haters complained about.

Er..yes it is..other than the random chest spawns, IZS makes 12 a completely different and better game.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
icarus-daedelus said:
XII has a lot of fans on GAF, yes, but if you look to other sources you'll find many, many people who hated it.
That's why I'd say it's more "polarizing" than XIII. Some unapologetically love it and some loathe it.

XIII is just worse and how we take its failure says a lot about our personal character :lol
 
worldrevolution said:
Er..yes it is..other than the random chest spawns, IZS makes 12 a completely different and better game.

IIRC, 12 haters complained about the battle system more than anything else. Does that change in the international version?
 
BocoDragon said:
Who wouldn't about face on XII? We used to say about that game "awesome gameplay... but the big flaw is the storyline fell apart by the end".
Dunno who "we" is, but my feelings on FF12 are a whole lot more complicated than just gameplay = good, story = bad. I'd guess that's true for some of the haters, too. Buuut I'm pretty sure himu came to this conclusion prior to playing FF13, if that's what you're implying.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
icarus-daedelus said:
Dunno who "we" is, but my feelings on FF12 are a whole lot more complicated than just gameplay = good, story = bad. I'd guess that's true for some of the haters, too. Buuut I'm pretty sure himu came to this conclusion prior to playing FF13, if that's what you're implying.
I don't know if he about faced.. you said it :lol
 
BocoDragon said:
So wrong. That game had it's diehard fans, even here on cynical GAF. Amirox and Himuro, XIII-loathers... they liked XII from what I remember.

XIII will take that "most hated FF" crown as time goes on, I am sure of it.

I don't think so really. I'm someone who hated FFXII mainly because it seemed like so much wasted potential. I loved FFT and was expecting something of that same calibur.

For FFXIII, I'm, how would you say, indifferent. It's not even compelling enough to hate. I don't have the desire to play my copy anymore and I'm only on Chapter 5.
 

Cep

Banned
cosmicblizzard said:
IIRC, 12 haters complained about the battle system more than anything else. Does that change in the international version?

Not really, tweaked mainly for those that liked the game in the first place.

And 12's haters (rightfully) bitch about a lot of things in 12.

The only things that 12 did that is does not deserve criticism at all were localization and non-character art design.
 
cosmicblizzard said:
IIRC, 12 haters complained about the battle system more than anything else. Does that change in the international version?

Yeah, the XII-haters complained about the story, the battle system, and the License Board. FFXII:IZJS addresses the License Board, and lets you fast-forward battles, but nothing about the character-programming minigame (aka Gambits) has changed and the story is still as wimpy as ever. If I wanted to become a game AI programmer, I would go to college and get a CS degree and apply for jobs. Squenix could have at least had the courtesy to throw in some pre-baked Gambit profiles for everybody instead of making everyone become an amateur game AI script programmer just to play XII. :lol
 
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