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[Mr. Spinnington]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I can't see where we go from here.

continue a long debate about it on a gaming forum until you feel like you've won

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't think so really. I'm someone who hated FFXII mainly because it seemed like so much wasted potential. I loved FFT and was expecting something of that same calibur.

For FFXIII, I'm, how would you say, indifferent. It's not even compelling enough to hate. I don't have the desire to play my copy anymore and I'm only on Chapter 5.

Honestly I don't think you've played the game enough to know how much it shits the bed. :lol I was very hopeful where you are in the game... Even 40 or so hours in, I was still having a great time. However I've gotten to a point where I see the entirety of the plot and the game design, and it sparks a moment of recognition: "this game really is less than other FFs".. and I'm talking the full gamut from say FFIV-XII.

I know XII has these weird flaws that make it "short of a real FF game" to some people, but they're rendered so insignificant compared to XIII.

Once more people complete the game and let it sink in.. it will not be fondly remembered.

 

[Cep]

Honestly I don't think you've played the game enough to know how much it shits the bed. :lol I was very hopeful where you are in the game... Even 40 or so hours in, I was still having a great time. However I've gotten to a point where I see the entirety of the plot and the game design, and it sparks a moment of recognition: "this game really is less than other FFs".. and I'm talking the full gamut from say FFIV-XII.

I know XII has these weird flaws that make it "short of a real FF game" to some people, but they're rendered so insignificant compared to XIII.

Once more people complete the game and let it sink in.. it will not be fondly remembered.

You truly mistake the power of nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses and LTTP.

 

[Crash Station]

Honestly I don't think you've played the game enough to know how much it shits the bed. :lol I was very hopeful where you are in the game... Even 40 or so hours in, I was still having a great time. However I've gotten to a point where I see the entirety of the plot and the game design, and it sparks a moment of recognition: "this game really is less than other FFs".. and I'm talking the full gamut from say FFIV-XII.

I know XII has these weird flaws that make it "short of a real FF game" to some people, but they're rendered so insignificant compared to XIII.

Once more people complete the game and let it sink in.. it will not be fondly remembered.

You were one of the better defenders earlier. Guess I'll have to do it on my own. ARMY OF ONE!

 

[-tetsuo-]

Heres what I have to say

Both Mass Effect 2 and FFXIII have the same problems when it comes to storytelling. They like to beat you over the head with what ever grave and questionable thing happens. They seem to assume the audience is dumb and pick up on things in subtle ways. I'm pretty sure I can understand Lighting and Miranda's problems without them having to announce whats going on. Hell Mass Effect 2 is worse because no one announces their problems and personality like ME2 characters. After the 2nd time of talking to me I'm not going to sit here and tell you my life story and how I think. Thats what happens in Mass Effect. Except Mass Effect hides it better with less awkward dialogue and "witty" things.

Yeah XIII is also bad. I'm not going to walk up my friend and say "I see it now. I was born on my parents leash and am nothing but a pet ,but I MUST FIGHT on". No I would say "Man parent's suck" or something like that. I wouldn't sit her and say melodramatic things. I also wouldn't say melodramatic things to my teacher who I've known for 1 day.

Game writing isn't subtle and they don't write multi-layerd things. That happens on both sides of the pond. So no I don't think ME2 has better writing then FFXIII when they suffer from the same problems. Mass Effect just hides the crappy writing better.

Ya that's not true.

 

[BocoDragon]

You truly mistake the power of nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses and LTTP.

I meant comparatively. This is still an FF game, and as I know, there's still a lot to LOVE here. I don't think FFXIII will go down as some "Enter the Matrix" or anything. But it'll be that "flawed" one. A shiny, stylish mess.

 

[Kagari]

You were one of the better defenders earlier. Guess I'll have to do it on my own. ARMY OF ONE!

It's okay <3

 

[Doublethink]

I think for me, this one is going down as the "Final Fantasy I finished just because it was Final Fantasy."

 

[Cep]

I cannot wait to see the face of many a gaffer when FFv13 turns out to be the worse game.

Spoiler

Gotta keep them expectations low. Although BBS gives me hope

 

[User 10639]

My last experience with Nomura as director was Kingdom Hearts, so I will have no problem keeping expectations for Versus low.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

What got me hooked was reading the datapad or whatever. It just flat out says some stuff that isn't really conveyed well in the cutscenes. Plus reading it makes it so much easier to wrap your head around the stupid names, although that's not mostly till chapter 2.

I must say, I went into this game expecting a jrpg and all the horrible shit that comes with, and so far I've been pleasantly surprised. Granted I'm only like 5 hours in, but I really like all of the characters. Snow is the only one that's kinda grating, but I can stomach the awkwardness and appreciate what they tried to do. I'm still kinda shocked that they managed to make Vanille tolerable. Everything about that archetype is the kind of thing about jrpgs that makes me want to drown myself instead of playing, but she's downright great. Hell, I can say that for every character so far. Cliched, but not embarrassingly so.

Sure this game has plenty left to make me hate it, but it's been a damn long time I've been this enthused about playing a jrpg.

The datalog is great, thanks.

Spoiler

just fought that fal'cie thing in the vestige or whatever its called. now that I see the relation of lighting and that guy, snow? I'm going to stick with it longer

 

[Kagari]

I cannot wait to see the face of many a gaffer when FFv13 turns out to be the worse game.

Spoiler

Gotta keep them expectations low. Although BBS gives me hope

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH, YOU!

 

[ULTROS!]

Well, in Japan the "haters" and "defenders" seem to be about even:

Actually, FFXII has its fare share too:

FFX on the other hand (only a quarter of reviewers of FFXIII)...

 

[Pooya]

:lol this thread is still going, , this game is a wreck, it's really impossible to defend it, give it a break guys.

 

[Crash Station]

:lol this thread is still going, , this game is a wreck, it's really impossible to defend it, give it a break guys.

 

[brandonh83]

:lol this thread is still going, , this game is a wreck, it's really impossible to defend it, give it a break guys.

I wouldn't even defend it, and when brandonh83 won't even defend it, you know somebody royally fucked something up.

 

[Kagari]

:lol this thread is still going, , this game is a wreck, it's really impossible to defend it, give it a break guys.

Didn't you buy a console specifically for it?

 

[Narcosis]

I meant comparatively. This is still an FF game, and as I know, there's still a lot to LOVE here. I don't think FFXIII will go down as some "Enter the Matrix" or anything. But it'll be that "flawed" one. A shiny, stylish mess.

I don't think it sinks below FFII, which is probably the worst FF game. And while it is definetly one of the more flawed entries in the series, the degree of hate and passionate defense it's spurred in here is I think more about certain personalities pushing each other to further cement some harsher and some more rose tinted opinions of the game than what it merits.

 

[awilliams213]

I have been avoiding this thread and this is my first visit to it I just finished FF13 about an hour ago. Total playtime was just under 60 hours it was a fun linear ride. I like that the developers tried something different hopefully they will take what works and expand on it.

 

[Rahxephon91]

:lol this thread is still going, , this game is a wreck, it's really impossible to defend it, give it a break guys.

Its a good game and a good entry into the franchise. No game is perfect except for, Zone of the Enders 2.

 

[Pooya]

Didn't you buy a console specifically for it?

sure I did:lol . thanks god for God of War III and Heavy Rain.

 

[Lunchbox]

im getting this from gamefly tomorrow cause you people kept saying its the "one that critics hate, but people like"............and now you fuck suckers are saying its bad while my game is in the mail?

who do i start the stabbings with?

 

[BocoDragon]

You were one of the better defenders earlier. Guess I'll have to do it on my own. ARMY OF ONE!

I still enjoy the game.. I am a fan of the battle system, the style, the overall world that it takes place in. But starting at about Cid's scene in Chapter 10, the plot elements were handled in such a way that I utterly failed to believe in the reality of them. Suddenly I wasn't even getting my dose of sappy Japanese melodrama anymore.. it actually jumped the shark in my mind.

20 hours later, piercing into the final moments of the game... the story just feels botched! I just didn't believe the character motivations and their overall goal, I didn't believe their inspirational speeches anymore... the FMV sequences like Snow/Light on the grass hill or the "race" in chapter 12 played out a million times more hollow than I had ever imagined from watching the trailers. What they were going for... I eat that shit up! But the way they actually pulled it off... something's wrong. The story just kept moving along without the necessary amount of detail to make me believe it.

Oh Cid's something something and we

Spoiler

fight him now

? Oh ok.
And we're gonna wander Pulse to cool our heads and maybe

Spoiler

remove our brands

? Seriously?
And now we're gonna rush into Cocoon because YEAH WE CAN DO IT (

Spoiler

but aren't we supposed to destroy it

, so what are we saving them from..? I don't get it.).

I don't believe any of it! and if I've gotten some of these plot points wrong, well... that's the point. They barely explained everything since all big plot points turn on a dime, like in some children's cartoon, where at least the villain would better explain it! They give everything such little weight.

With the story not even doing it for me anymore... how could I stay on board the love train? I still like a lot about it but it's... very flawed. I see that now.

I'm gonna play Cave Story tonight. That's a good game.

 

[Kagari]

sure I did:lol .

Future preparation for Versus XIII!

 

[MrDenny]

I cannot wait to see the face of many a gaffer when FFv13 turns out to be the worse game.

Spoiler

Gotta keep them expectations low. Although BBS gives me hope

Nomura said Versus would be more traditional than FF13 (worldmap/airships)
Thats the one thing I missed in XIII, the locations were pretty but since you were on the "run", the locations had no meaning and you couldn't backtrack.
Glad versus won't have these issues.
hype + 1

 

[Crash Station]

I don't think it sinks below FFII, which is probably the worst FF game. And while it is definetly one of the more flawed entries in the series, the degree of hate and passionate defense it's spurred in here is I think more about certain personalities pushing each other to further cement some harsher and some more rose tinted opinions of the game than what it merits.

There's no problem with judging something more harshly or rose tintedy than it deserves. Hell, I love the game despite it's flaws and think it's one of the best experiences I've had all gen.

The problem is pushing your opinion on others which is unfortunately the very essence of the internet.

 

[tokkun]

You truly mistake the power of nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses and LTTP.

This doesn't happen with everything. Some games get viewed more harshly as time passes. Lost Odyssey, for example.

 

[Amir0x]

continue a long debate about it on a gaming forum until you feel like you've won

I just enjoy hearing the ever more elaborate ways people find to defend certain things. I learn a lot from the process. I enjoy these discussions.

I don't have an opinion unless I believe it's 100% right, so it's not about winning or losing. It's about learning.

 

[Kagari]

Nomura said Versus would be more traditional than FF13 (worldmap/airships)
Thats the one thing I missed in XIII, the locations were pretty but since you were on the "run", the locations had no meaning and you couldn't backtrack.
Glad versus won't have these issues.
hype + 1

I just wonder how 'traditional' it will be. FFXIII was the complete opposite... it didn't even have any of the classic themes save for one.

 

[User 10639]

Honestly I don't think you've played the game enough to know how much it shits the bed. :lol I was very hopeful where you are in the game... Even 40 or so hours in, I was still having a great time. However I've gotten to a point where I see the entirety of the plot and the game design, and it sparks a moment of recognition: "this game really is less than other FFs".. and I'm talking the full gamut from say FFIV-XII.

I know XII has these weird flaws that make it "short of a real FF game" to some people, but they're rendered so insignificant compared to XIII.

Once more people complete the game and let it sink in.. it will not be fondly remembered.

All that is your opinion, though. I'm guessing that there will be people out there who hated 12 but love 13 with a passion just like, you know, every Final Fantasy ever is received. Each person seems to have their own definition of what a "real" Final Fantasy game is, since the 13 mainline games have far less in common with each other than games in just about any other series I can think of. Genre and certain aesthetic choices are the common threads, and that's not much.

I will give you that some of the positive impressions may be from new car smell, but that same effect did not "wear off" for other games in the series which have genuine, large flaws, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that 13 will have its fans just like every other entry in the series.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't think it sinks below FFII, which is probably the worst FF game. And while it is definetly one of the more flawed entries in the series, the degree of hate and passionate defense it's spurred in here is I think more about certain personalities pushing each other to further cement some harsher and some more rose tinted opinions of the game than what it merits.

FFII is worse for sure... but I don't think most gamers will be thinking that far back.

That's a very interesting observation about strong personalities in this forum... Of course some people had chips on their shoulder playing this game from the beginning. Clearly some people loved to hate on this game, and their verbal bile forced the people who were enjoying themselves to play "XIII Defense Force".

Look at myself... I had to spill a little poison on XIII above... but that's because I've already wasted my breath talking about the good points of XIII in response to the haters. Put my posts together and you'll see that I mostly enjoyed myself while I came to recognize flaws in the game. This board sometimes forces us to say "It's absolute shite!" or "it's the best game ever!".

 

[ULTROS!]

I just wonder how 'traditional' it will be. FFXIII was the complete opposite... it didn't even have any of the classic themes save for one.

Versus XIII will be the complete opposite of XIII. :lol

It will be less-emotional, darker, open-world with a bit of linearity, and loads of side quests. Not to mention it will be a super awesome game.

 

[Amir0x]

I just wonder how 'traditional' it will be. FFXIII was the complete opposite... it didn't even have any of the classic themes save for one.

If they are true and the engine is what prevented many of the 'traditional' FF elements from making it in, then I see no reason why they can't include many of these things in Versus XIII and beyond (my problem is that the KH team is apparently working on it, and we know how they make games. *shudder*)

Of course, FFXIV will have all these things anyway... it's an MMORPG, but, if one thing FFXIII did, it's make me anticipate a MMORPG. I really feel FFXIV might be what I'm looking for until they settle down in the single player FF games and design smarter games.

 

[Kagari]

Versus XIII will be the complete opposite of XIII. :lol

It will be less-emotional, darker, open-world with a bit of linearity, and loads of side quests. Not to mention it will be a super awesome game.

I certainly hope so.

 

[BocoDragon]

All that is your opinion, though. I'm guessing that there will be people out there who hated 12 but love 13 with a passion just like, you know, every Final Fantasy ever is received. Each person seems to have their own definition of what a "real" Final Fantasy game is, since the 13 mainline games have far less in common with each other than games in just about any other series I can think of. Genre and certain aesthetic choices are the common threads, and that's not much.

I will give you that some of the positive impressions may be from new car smell, but that same effect did not "wear off" for other games in the series which have genuine, large flaws, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that 13 will have its fans just like every other entry in the series.

You're probably right.

I was convinced everyone would look back in hate on FFX.. and then it became the fondly remembered game of choice for Japanese fans, younger fans who grew up with it, a very large mainstream audience etc.

 

[ULTROS!]

You know, just wanted to share I bought my PS3 January 2009 specifically for Star Ocean 4, FFXIII, and Silent Hill 4. :lol

Of course, I never did my research and guess what game lived up to my hype until now. Clue: Sarah. :lol

 

[Kagari]

If they are true and the engine is what prevented many of the 'traditional' FF elements from making it in, then I see no reason why they can't include many of these things in Versus XIII and beyond (my problem is that the KH team is apparently working on it, and we know how they make games. *shudder*)

Of course, FFXIV will have all these things anyway... it's an MMORPG, but, if one thing FFXIII did, it's make me anticipate a MMORPG. I really feel FFXIV might be what I'm looking for until they settle down in the single player FF games and design smarter games.

Yeah, FFXIV looks absolutely amazing and has a lot of great things going for it.

 

[ScrabbleDude]

I'm into chapter 4 now and still loving it. Wish I was playing the game when it was first released and before everyone in the thread was a hater.

Of course, I've been a long time fan of JRPGs, so according to people I shouldn't like this one.

I will say that doing nothing but running, fighting, and watching cut scenes is starting to feel a little tedious, but I'm sure that's going to open up a bit and include at least a couple of distractions.

 

[Amir0x]

You know, just wanted to share I bought my PS3 January 2009 specifically for Star Ocean 4, FFXIII, and Silent Hill 4. :lol

Of course, I never did my research and guess what game lived up to my hype until now. Clue: Sarah. :lol

I purchased a PS3 for God of War III, Metal Gear Solid 4 and Gran Turismo 5 (also Blu-Ray). Also The Last Guardian.

Metal Gear Solid 4 was baaaaaaad, God of War III was fucking amazing, and Gran Turismo 5 clearly is never coming out ever!

Last Guardian is my heart <3

/offtopic

 

[Choopy]

What's the catalyst for The Tetratic Tiara? Scarletite??
I want to get sprint shoes and I maxed the Tiara so I can turn it into a crown... And scarletite is the catalyst according to http://ff-13.info/accessory/ .. But scarletite is greyed out

 

[User 10639]

I bought my PS3 for MGS4 and some other stuff, as long as we're sharing. I don't think it's as terribad as much of GAF does but it did kind of shake up my thoughts about the series as a whole and I'd probably put it down as a disappointment in the end. edit: not unlike the feelings of some people regarding FF13, I'm sure.

Its a good game and a good entry into the franchise. No game is perfect except for, Zone of the Enders 2.

I don't remember a lot about ZOE2, but I do remember it having this boring section in the beginning where you have to walk in a very slow mech towards your destination. Flaw!

 

[BocoDragon]

I bought my PS3 for MGS4 and some other stuff, as long as we're sharing. I don't think it's as terribad as much of GAF does but it did kind of shake up my thoughts about the series as a whole and I'd probably put it down as a disappointment in the end. edit: not unlike the feelings of some people regarding FF13, I'm sure.

They're quite similar in my mind.

Good games. Holy shit flawed.

I don't remember a lot about ZOE2, but I do remember it having this boring section in the beginning where you have to walk in a very slow mech towards your destination. Flaw!

That section's awesome! Sometimes I fire the game up for ZOE virgins and watch them squirm on that scene for awhile. "This is the awesome mech shit you were talking about?.... AWWWWWWWW!! ;_; " And then it begins

The real awful section of ZOE2 is with Taper... "I'm in a crate that contains the letter A. Find me!... Henry G."

 

[Crash Station]

I still enjoy the game.. I am a fan of the battle system, the style, the overall world that it takes place in. But starting at about Cid's scene in Chapter 10, the plot elements were handled in such a way that I utterly failed to believe in the reality of them. Suddenly I wasn't even getting my dose of sappy Japanese melodrama anymore.. it actually jumped the shark in my mind.

20 hours later, piercing into the final moments of the game... the story just feels botched! I just didn't believe the character motivations and their overall goal, I didn't believe their inspirational speeches anymore... the FMV sequences like Snow/Light on the grass hill or the "race" in chapter 12 played out a million times more hollow than I had ever imagined from watching the trailers. What they were going for... I eat that shit up! But the way they actually pulled it off... something's wrong. The story just kept moving along without the necessary amount of detail to make me believe it.

Oh Cid's something something and we

Spoiler

fight him now

? Oh ok.
And we're gonna wander Pulse to cool our heads and maybe

Spoiler

remove our brands

? Seriously?
And now we're gonna rush into Cocoon because YEAH WE CAN DO IT (

Spoiler

but aren't we supposed to destroy it

, so what are we saving them from..? I don't get it.).

I don't believe any of it! and if I've gotten some of these plot points wrong, well... that's the point. They barely explained everything since all big plot points turn on a dime, like in some children's cartoon, where at least the villain would better explain it! They give everything such little weight.

With the story not even doing it for me anymore... how could I stay on board the love train? I still like a lot about it but it's... very flawed. I see that now.

I'm gonna play Cave Story tonight. That's a good game.

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm just deluding myself when I think about ways that justifies the actions of the characters but I still enjoyed the story enough to say it's one of my favorite in the series. I actually felt something at the end there and that's really all I ask for out of a story like this. Sure it was flawed but I genuinely believe a flawed experience can be enjoyable. Sure, you could say a deus ex machina ruined the whole thing but I saw it as another excuse to be moved by one of Snow's optimistic speeches. If that makes me a 14 year old boy weaboo animu fanatic, then so be it. I like what I like.

 

[Cep]

Yeah, FFXIV looks absolutely amazing and has a lot of great things going for it.

I would have been all over had it at least had an offline mode.

Grind and I do not mix.

 

[brandonh83]

Grind and I do not mix.

Trapezohedron! Trapezohedron!

 

[User 10639]

They're quite similar in my mind.

Good games. Holy shit flawed.

Yep, and "holy shit flawed" is an apt way of putting it. :lol

I would not so its indisputably when it comes to characterization or plot. Fine the actual writing is better. I don't care. Fine I get that ME2 is a lot sophisticated and has more mature handling when it comes to what people say. But plot and characterization? I don't think you can say that's a fact. Espically when both fail at the end. At least 1 went somewhere.

Btw, I see your point here. And GitS SAC 2 (boy I love acronyms) is indeed excellently written.

 

[BocoDragon]

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm just deluding myself when I think about ways that justifies the actions of the characters but I still enjoyed the story enough to say it's one of my favorite in the series. I actually felt something at the end there and that's really all I ask for out of a story like this. Sure it was flawed but I genuinely believe a flawed experience can be enjoyable. Sure, you could say a deus ex machina ruined the whole thing but I saw it as another excuse to be moved by one of Snow's optimistic speeches. If that makes me a 14 year old boy weaboo animu fanatic, then so be it. I like what I like.

I'm sympathetic because I actually enjoy idealistic plotlines.. Nothing about the outer shell of XIII offends me, the way it clearly offends certain people here (you know who I mean... anime haters). I felt there was a rather strong melodrama going on in the early scenes.. but in my view that has completely fallen away since chapter 10.

I still haven't beaten it.. so I'll see if the story redeems that hollow unreality I'm experiencing with it right now... I'd be shocked if the ending didn't add some value to the overall story.

 

[Gattsu25]

I bought my PS3 for MGS4 and some other stuff, as long as we're sharing. I don't think it's as terribad as much of GAF does but it did kind of shake up my thoughts about the series as a whole and I'd probably put it down as a disappointment in the end. edit: not unlike the feelings of some people regarding FF13, I'm sure.

I don't remember a lot about ZOE2, but I do remember it having this boring section in the beginning where you have to walk in a very slow mech towards your destination. Flaw!

30 seconds and only there to make you say :O when you get jehuty*



*just checked and holy shit, how the hell did I manage to remember that name after so long?

 

[BocoDragon]

30 seconds and only there to make you say :O when you get jehuty*



*just checked and holy shit, how the hell did I manage to remember that name after so long?

7 years since the last one *shakes fist at Kojima*

 

[User 10639]

I'm sympathetic because I actually enjoy idealistic plotlines.. Nothing about the outer shell of XIII offends me, the way it clearly offends certain people here (you know who I mean... anime haters). I felt there was a rather strong melodrama going on in the early scenes.. but in my view that has completely fallen away since chapter 10.

Part of the overall schizophrenia of this game is that the story delivery changes pretty radically during Pulse, and by that I mean that in comparison with the rest of the game there are hardly any cutscenes at all. It's a jarring shift, to be sure, probably even more so if you were 'into' the story. And for me, it's not an overall hate of anime that makes me dislike the anime-ish parts of the storyline - I'm mature enough not to hate on an entire medium for whatever reason - it's more that the game takes inspiration from the worst cliches of anime characterization (particularly with Snow and Vanille).