Support NeoGAF

[BocoDragon]

I bet all your girlfriends will LOVE Snow and Vanille... which is half the point.

Not that you all have girlfriends. :lol

 

[diss]

6.5 hours in and I'm wondering if I can dismantle Hope and Vanille into components for my gun

 

[BocoDragon]

6.5 hours in and I'm wondering if I can dismantle Hope and Vanille into components for my gun

:lol :lol :lol

 

[lorddarkflare]

6.5 hours in and I'm wondering if I can dismantle Hope and Vanille into components for my gun

Gimme 27 bucks and some smokes and we can work something out.

 

[dreamer3kx]

Im getting a but confused with the classes, if it better to spread CP in each of the character classes (reveger etc..) or to concentrate on one specific class, Im trying to get used to the pradigm system, its a bit crazy.

 

[Lion Heart]

So how does this compare to PS1 rpgs, is it better than say, Legend of Dragoon (fans only plz)? What about Chrono Cross?

I'll be picking it up soon anyway.

 

[Amir0x]

I think Vanille & Snow represent the divisive point between western tastes and eastern tastes.

Why are characters who are happy, positive, optimistic, and full of energy....extremely unlikable to western tastes? Because it's unrealistic? Because life sucks and no one should be that fun/energetic? Because they are dumb and don't consider the consequences of their actions? Why does that make them a character to be hated?
?

I promised myself not to wade into the FFXIII thread, 'cause I only have fire to breath over this game, but this specific point requires a response.

There is no one anywhere I think that consciously thinks to themselves "oh, hey, I hate people with a sunny disposition!" That's absurd. Amélie has a contagiously energetic and optimistic view of the world. It's one of the best films of the last twenty years. Sally Hawkin's character Poppy from Happy-Go-Lucky is a phenomenal person, and her whole very point is her inappropriate level of positivity about any situation, no matter how shitty. But her actions aren't at odds with her reality: there is a depth of character portrayed THROUGH THE WRITING which fleshes her out and allows the audience to go "ok, she is human."

The problem, like almost all Japanese RPGs, is the writing and characterization. These characters represent failed stereotypes, ideas within ideas about what it means to be optimistic. They're there to fill some unnecessary cuteness quota, to out KAWAII the KAWAII-obsessed. These characters almost always react in annoyingly unrealistic ways to any situation, nearly always destroying the tone of the game they inhabit. FFXIII's opening is filled with

Spoiler

the genocide of a people

, and meanwhile she jaunts around spouting bullshit colloquialisms with everybody she runs into like she knows them, no matter how horrible the situation. Her writing makes no sense, she makes no sense as a character, and any sane audience who is watching her pretty much wants to dip her in acid by the end of the first fucking chapter.

I for one love happy characters. Naturally games exist to present problems to these characters, often incredible odds and situations, so the time for them to be happy usually ends abruptly. But the reality is, I think everyone would be happy with a happy character who was written well, and wasn't an embarrasing Japanese anime stereotype.

Yes, Japanese anime storytelling often IS terrible. That's just the reality.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

heh, playing this in a room by myself with headphones is clearly enhancing the experience for me. not having to worry about people hearing this shit is making the embarrassing dialogue hilarious instead of cringe-worthy.

 

[Nose Master]

The scene with Vanilla and Sazh (Chapter 3?)

Spoiler

where the bird yells at him for checking out her ass

is amazing. :lol

 

[7Th]

FFXIII's opening is filled with

Spoiler

the genocide of a people

, and meanwhile she jaunts around spouting bullshit colloquialisms with everybody she runs into like she knows them, no matter how horrible the situation. Her writing makes no sense, she makes no sense as a character, and any sane audience who is watching her pretty much wants to dip her in acid by the end of the first fucking chapter.

I don't think FFXIII is that good, but this is a pretty ridiculous complaint; there is an understandable, a little bit too convenient but still understandable, justification to Vanille's actions, you just can't really expect them to show you all of their cards so early into the game.

 

[BocoDragon]

By the way amirox... off topic to what you just said: this game is so much different than any pre-release hype or anti-hype ever made it out to be. I really suggest you play this game and form your own opinion before assuming other people's impressions confirm your suspicions against it... it's a really strange beast, and I don't think you'll necessarily fall in love it it (who knows), but it's such a unique thing. No condemnation of it really can sweep it aside.. it's aggressively different.. it must be tried.

EDIT: I am assuming you aren't playing it now.. I think you mentioned that before?

 

[methos75]

The scene with Vanilla and Sazh (Chapter 3?)

Spoiler

where the bird yells at him for checking out her ass

is amazing. :lol

I loved that part LOL

 

[Castor Krieg]

I don't think FFXIII is that good, but this is a pretty ridiculous complaint; there is an understandable, a little bit too convenient but still understandable, justification to Vanille's actions, you're just not even halfway through the game.

Yup, she's just on emotional rollercoaster/rebound because of

Spoiler

what happened to her in the past

.

 

[Amir0x]

There's no justification for her ridiculous attitude. Only bad writing upon more bad writing. But I'm not going to sit here and debate it with the Japanese anime obsessed crew, I'm only here to reject the claim that westerners hate positivity and happiness.

By the way amirox... off topic to what you just said: this game is so much different than any pre-release hype or anti-hype ever made it out to be. I really suggest you play this game and form your own opinion before assuming other people's impressions confirm your suspicions against it... it's a really strange beast, and I don't think you'll necessarily fall in love it it (who knows), but it's such a unique thing. No condemnation of it really can sweep it aside.. it's aggressively different.. it must be tried.

EDIT: I am assuming you aren't playing it now.. I think you mentioned that before?

It seems to me literally exactly what the "hype/anti-hype" made it out to be. I know my tastes. No need to weigh this thread down with more of that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I promised myself not to wade into the FFXIII thread, 'cause I only have fire to breath over this game, but this specific point requires a response.

There is no one anywhere I think that consciously thinks to themselves "oh, hey, I hate people with a sunny disposition!" That's absurd. Amélie has a contagiously energetic and optimistic view of the world. It's one of the best films of the last twenty years. Sally Hawkin's character Poppy from Happy-Go-Lucky is a phenomenal person, and her whole very point is her inappropriate level of positivity about any situation, no matter how shitty. But her actions aren't at odds with her reality: there is a depth of character portrayed THROUGH THE WRITING which fleshes her out and allows the audience to go "ok, she is human."

The problem, like almost all Japanese RPGs, is the writing and characterization. These characters represent failed stereotypes, ideas within ideas about what it means to be optimistic. They're there to fill some unnecessary cuteness quota, to out KAWAII the KAWAII-obsessed. These characters almost always react in annoyingly unrealistic ways to any situation, nearly always destroying the tone of the game they inhabit. FFXIII's opening is filled with

Spoiler

the genocide of a people

, and meanwhile she jaunts around spouting bullshit colloquialisms with everybody she runs into like she knows them, no matter how horrible the situation. Her writing makes no sense, she makes no sense as a character, and any sane audience who is watching her pretty much wants to dip her in acid by the end of the first fucking chapter.

I for one love happy characters. Naturally games exist to present problems to these characters, often incredible odds and situations, so the time for them to be happy usually ends abruptly. But the reality is, I think everyone would be happy with a happy character who was written well, and wasn't an embarrasing Japanese anime stereotype.

Yes, Japanese anime storytelling often IS terrible. That's just the reality.

Agreed; it just seems like Vanille's particular disposition tends to border on actually being not functional or even sane.

That type of cuckoolander/genki girl personality can work in an anime because that's a wholly different medium. It seems just as bizarre and out of place as it would be if Lightning did face faults. It really makes no sense and breaks the suspension of disbelief, because ultimately, it's hard to picture how Sazh doesn't turn to her and ask "what the hell's the matter with you?"

 

[Jazzy Network]

About 2 hours in and I'm not liking it at all. Beginning is awful. I just got the ability to use magic. I'm def gonna play more but it is absolutely underwhelming. Plus the main character is awful.

 

[Bebpo]

I promised myself not to wade into the FFXIII thread, 'cause I only have fire to breath over this game, but this specific point requires a response.

There is no one anywhere I think that consciously thinks to themselves "oh, hey, I hate people with a sunny disposition!" That's absurd. Amélie has a contagiously energetic and optimistic view of the world. It's one of the best films of the last twenty years. Sally Hawkin's character Poppy from Happy-Go-Lucky is a phenomenal person, and her whole very point is her inappropriate level of positivity about any situation, no matter how shitty. But her actions aren't at odds with her reality: there is a depth of character portrayed THROUGH THE WRITING which fleshes her out and allows the audience to go "ok, she is human."

The problem, like almost all Japanese RPGs, is the writing and characterization. These characters represent failed stereotypes, ideas within ideas about what it means to be optimistic. They're there to fill some unnecessary cuteness quota, to out KAWAII the KAWAII-obsessed. These characters almost always react in annoyingly unrealistic ways to any situation, nearly always destroying the tone of the game they inhabit. FFXIII's opening is filled with

Spoiler

the genocide of a people

, and meanwhile she jaunts around spouting bullshit colloquialisms with everybody she runs into like she knows them, no matter how horrible the situation. Her writing makes no sense, she makes no sense as a character, and any sane audience who is watching her pretty much wants to dip her in acid by the end of the first fucking chapter.

I for one love happy characters. Naturally games exist to present problems to these characters, often incredible odds and situations, so the time for them to be happy usually ends abruptly. But the reality is, I think everyone would be happy with a happy character who was written well, and wasn't an embarrasing Japanese anime stereotype.

Yes, Japanese anime storytelling often IS terrible. That's just the reality.

I agree Japanese anime storytelling is usually terrible. But then how come in a story where every character is brought to life using the same quality of terrible writing all the complaints get directed at the cheery girl and the foolhardy guy.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Agreed; it just seems like Vanille's particular disposition tends to border on actually being not functional or even sane.

FFS, play the game up till Chapter

Spoiler

11

and you will know why she's like that. You even get a hint of that in earlier chapters. Maybe it's a bit overblown, but it does make sense why she is so cheerful.

 

[Angry Grimace]

FFS, play the game up till Chapter

Spoiler

11

and you will know why she's like that. You even get a hint of that in earlier chapters. Maybe it's a bit overblown, but it does make sense why she is so cheerful.

I sincerely doubt there's going to be an excuse outside of drugs that's going to redeem that particular characterization.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

There's no justification for her ridiculous attitude. Only bad writing upon more bad writing. But I'm not going to sit here and debate it with the Japanese anime obsessed crew, I'm only here to reject the claim that westerners hate positivity and happiness.

I read this in Snow's voice for some reason.

 

[methos75]

I am liking FF13 for what it is, but it really doesn't feel like an FF game to me at all. But the graphics are amazing and it sounds beautiful, so I am willing to forgive its missteps. As to Snow, I hate the whiny bitch, he is a bigger crybaby than anyone else in the game with all his BS statements. And I like Vanille, she is the typical crazy ass, retard female in JRPGs, meant more for fanfare than anything else.

 

[sciplore]

Big rant

I think Dresden got it right its about the writing or maybe its a age thing? People love Sora and he's as happy go luck as you get. I guess if your going to have happy, naive like grown adult character make them very young? Maybe give them a agenda? Nothing wrong with making them stupid either if the popularity spongebob and his knockoffs are to go by.

 

[CozMick]

About 2 hours in and I'm not liking it at all. Beginning is awful. I just got the ability to use magic. I'm def gonna play more but it is absolutely underwhelming. Plus the main character is awful.

Lightening?

For real?

I personally thought she is one of the better main characters in the series.

 

[CruxisMana]

Not really all that important, but the UK advert is longer now.

 

[marathonfool]

I enjoy these quirky, non-believable characters in Final Fantasy games. I don't want a Final Fantasy game to depict real people. It's what makes these games so different from the typical all too serious, gritty, narratives.

 

[Dresden]

My main complaint about the game would be datalogs. It's not good storytelling to rely on dictionary entries to fill in huge chunks of background information and plot. I like reading them, but you're essentially in the dark until you read a page or two after every cutscene. The game pulls new terms and plot items out of its ass every ten minutes and sometimes you have to wonder if the concept of worldbuilding is lost on... Kitase? Who was the writer for XIII?

 

[7Th]

There's no justification for her ridiculous attitude. Only bad writing upon more bad writing. But I'm not going to sit here and debate it with the Japanese anime obsessed crew, I'm only here to reject the claim that westerners hate positivity and happiness.

Even if the writing is bad, the justification to her ridiculous attitude still remains valid because her attitude is supposed to be ridiculous because that ridiculousness is part of her character and you're supposed to question yourself about what the hell is wrong with her.

 

[Duke Togo]

How bad is the dialogue? Am I going to have to play this one with headphones on in the basement to prevent myself from being embarrassed in front of my peers? :lol

 

[Crash Station]

11 hours in. Just beat

Spoiler

Bulbasaur

. As beautiful as that area was, I'm glad I'm finally out of it. That's the only area I would say is too long so far.

 

[Empty]

Though the bizarre pairing of Vanille and Sazh feels like it is about the break into Final Fantasy Lolita at any second, i'm loving having Sazh give incidental dialogue, dude is pretty funny and counteracts the persistently annoying Vanille. The environment in chapter 6 is super beautiful, but being in a forest only makes the level design irritate me, if i'm going down a corridor only fighting it doesn't feel like i'm in a forest at all, just walking through a skin, and i just wish the level design gave you more freedom to actually explore, or at least the illusion of exploration. I haven't had that much of a problem with the focused linear level design till now, though i do wish they made the corridors more interesting with puzzles or something, but now it kinda bugs me.

That said, i'm still having a total blast with the game, the battle system is so much fun.

 

[7Th]

I sincerely doubt there's going to be an excuse outside of drugs that's going to redeem that particular characterization.

I love me some TVTropes.

 

[sdornan]

Agreed; it just seems like Vanille's particular disposition tends to border on actually being not functional or even sane.

That type of cuckoolander/genki girl personality can work in an anime because that's a wholly different medium. It seems just as bizarre and out of place as it would be if Lightning did face faults. It really makes no sense and breaks the suspension of disbelief, because ultimately, it's hard to picture how Sazh doesn't turn to her and ask "what the hell's the matter with you?"

Eh, for a lot of people (including me), those
types of characters don't work in amine either.

And I hate weird ass exaggerated facial exressions in anime too. Just subtlely show
expressions on the characters' face rather than hit viewers over the head with it.

I stopped watching anime because anime characters never seemed human. They always seemed to fit some dumb mold.

 

[methos75]

My main complaint about the game would be datalogs. It's not good storytelling to rely on dictionary entries to fill in huge chunks of background information and plot. I like reading them, but you're essentially in the dark until you read a page or two after every cutscene. The game pulls new terms and plot items out of its ass every ten minutes and sometimes you have to wonder if the concept of worldbuilding is lost on... Kitase? Who was the writer for XIII?

I think Square was trying to take a page from Bioware, but they failed to realize that the logs in Bioware games expand upon the game world and are not needed to understand what is going on.

 

[qwerty2k]

just ordered the collectors edition guide for £16.99

 

[CruxisMana]

My main complaint about the game would be datalogs. It's not good storytelling to rely on dictionary entries to fill in huge chunks of background information and plot. I like reading them, but you're essentially in the dark until you read a page or two after every cutscene. The game pulls new terms and plot items out of its ass every ten minutes and sometimes you have to wonder if the concept of worldbuilding is lost on...

To this extent, I think that following the game from day 1 actually helped, since I was already fairly familiar with all the key background information.

 

[Amir0x]

I agree Japanese anime storytelling is usually terrible. But then how come in a story where every character is brought to life using the same quality of terrible writing all the complaints get directed at the cheery girl and the foolhardy guy.

Well, the worst offenders tend to be held up as an example of the shitty writing. That's like the way people use Mudflap's character in Transformers to show how terrible the quality of the script was, even though virtually everyone in that movie was awfully written.

Nothing wrong with making them stupid either if the popularity spongebob and his knockoffs are to go by.

Spongebob is in a universe filled with characters that make his attitude and disposition tone-appropriate. Vanille is in a world where

Spoiler

genocide regularly occurs

beside her, and her voice sounds about eighteen pitches too high and she sounds like she just injected liquid meth into her left eye. Oh I'm sure there's some borderline retarded game-logic for it, but I'm not going to try to pretend it's good writing. In a game with only battles and cutscenes, it's even worse.

 

[YuriLowell]

I promised myself not to wade into the FFXIII thread, 'cause I only have fire to breath over this game, but this specific point requires a response.

There is no one anywhere I think that consciously thinks to themselves "oh, hey, I hate people with a sunny disposition!" That's absurd. Amélie has a contagiously energetic and optimistic view of the world. It's one of the best films of the last twenty years. Sally Hawkin's character Poppy from Happy-Go-Lucky is a phenomenal person, and her whole very point is her inappropriate level of positivity about any situation, no matter how shitty. But her actions aren't at odds with her reality: there is a depth of character portrayed THROUGH THE WRITING which fleshes her out and allows the audience to go "ok, she is human."

The problem, like almost all Japanese RPGs, is the writing and characterization. These characters represent failed stereotypes, ideas within ideas about what it means to be optimistic. They're there to fill some unnecessary cuteness quota, to out KAWAII the KAWAII-obsessed. These characters almost always react in annoyingly unrealistic ways to any situation, nearly always destroying the tone of the game they inhabit. FFXIII's opening is filled with

Spoiler

the genocide of a people

, and meanwhile she jaunts around spouting bullshit colloquialisms with everybody she runs into like she knows them, no matter how horrible the situation. Her writing makes no sense, she makes no sense as a character, and any sane audience who is watching her pretty much wants to dip her in acid by the end of the first fucking chapter.

I for one love happy characters. Naturally games exist to present problems to these characters, often incredible odds and situations, so the time for them to be happy usually ends abruptly. But the reality is, I think everyone would be happy with a happy character who was written well, and wasn't an embarrasing Japanese anime stereotype.

Yes, Japanese anime storytelling often IS terrible. That's just the reality.

I agreed with you, and then I saw that you made all those assumptions on a character that you haven't even played the game for.

I do still agree with you on the whole writing being shitty in most Japanese games.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Vanille acting like a psychotic Sunshine N Daisies weirdo doesn't break the game or anything; I just tend to not give a shit about her character so far because she's completely irrational. There's a difference between having a cheerful disposition and being a caricature of a romantic comedy character.

I don't find Hope nearly as annoying as Vanille; even if his problem is clearly unfounded.

 

[sdornan]

Even if the writing is bad, the justification to her ridiculous attitude still remains valid because her attitude is supposed to be ridiculous because that ridiculousness is part of her character and you're supposed to question yourself about what the hell is wrong with her.

Because no prior experience would ever cause a real person to act like that. Unless the prior event you speak of was some form of brain damage. Should I have spoiler tagged that?

 

[BocoDragon]

It seems to me literally exactly what the "hype/anti-hype" made it out to be. I know my tastes. No need to weigh this thread down with more of that.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if you hate it after playing it. But it's such a unique experience that going down the amirox hate checklist (Nomura-stylings, anime story, linearity), really doesn't sum it up. It's really nothing like FF 8 or 10. Pick it up from a bargain bin some day... and please realize that until then, you don't quite know the score on this game just because you think it hits the sweet spot of other things you dislike.

 

[7Th]

Because no prior experience would ever cause a real person to act like that. Unless the prior event you speak of was some form of brain damage. Should I have spoiler tagged that?

Spoiler

What if she was, you know, just acting?

 

[methos75]

Well, the worst offenders tend to be held up as an example of the shitty writing. That's like the way people use Mudflap's character in Transformers to show how terrible the quality of the script was, even though virtually everyone in that movie was awfully written.



Spongebob is in a universe filled with characters that make his attitude and disposition tone-appropriate. Vanille is in a world where

Spoiler

genocide regularly occurs

beside her, and her voice sounds about eighteen pitches too high and she sounds like she just injected liquid meth into her left eye. Oh I'm sure there's some borderline retarded game-logic for it, but I'm not going to try to pretend it's good writing. In a game with only battles and cutscenes, it's even worse.

I know girls in the Military that even when deployed to Iraq can act as immature, and offbase as Vanille does. So nothing new here to me, its fairly true to life I think.

 

[MiniKelly]

About 2 hours in and I'm not liking it at all. Beginning is awful. I just got the ability to use magic. I'm def gonna play more but it is absolutely underwhelming. Plus the main character is awful.

I love lightning. Although names like snow, cloud, lightning doesn't translate well from Japanese.

 

[Nemo]

heh, playing this in a room by myself with headphones is clearly enhancing the experience for me. not having to worry about people hearing this shit is making the embarrassing dialogue hilarious instead of cringe-worthy.

:lol

I like that

 

[Amir0x]

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if you hate it after playing it. But it's such a unique experience that going down the amirox hate checklist (Nomura-stylings, anime story, linearity), really doesn't sum it up. It's really nothing like FF 8 or 10. Pick it up from a bargain bin some day... and please realize that until then, you don't quite know the score on this game just because you think it hits the sweet spot of other things you dislike.

the game is only battles, linear level design and cutscenes. Literally that's it. If you hate the cutscenes, have serious problems with the game structure and the details of the stats and battles, can't stand the Nomura-style and the linearity makes ones head explode with boredom, what is left?

Argh why am I discussing this! I know the game is not for me and it's stupid to get held up on that point. I am discussing the idea that Westerners don't like happy characters.

I know girls in the Military that even when deployed to Iraq can act as immature, and offbase as Vanille does. So nothing new here to me, its fairly true to life I think.

Please film those crazy inhuman soldiers and put it on youtube so we can laugh at literally the only people on Earth who act that way.

 

[painey]

regarding upgrading weapons.. can you jump levels at a time? Obviously theres the 3x multiplyer tip, but I don't want to waste exp by overupgrading and not getting the reward.. so say I stick 10,000xp onto a level 1 weapon, will it go to level 6 or just go to level 2 and lose the 9,000+ extra?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I love me some TVTropes.

I don't get what you mean; they're making it incredibly obvious that it's a facade (I haven't gotten far enough into the game to know or care why); but I find it unlikely that say, Sazh (who's playing the straight man here) wouldn't be like, "seriously, what the fuck?"

I mean, we could hand wave it by saying that the other characters don't care or notice her personality, but from the moment Lightning is introduced, the other party members make it obvious they think she's a jerkass, and her personality is far less distracting than Vanille's.

 

[Peff]

regarding upgrading weapons.. can you jump levels at a time? Obviously theres the 3x multiplyer tip, but I don't want to waste exp by overupgrading and not getting the reward.. so say I stick 10,000xp onto a level 1 weapon, will it go to level 6 or just go to level 2 and lose the 9,000+ extra?

You can go from one to maximum, in fact you HAVE to or you lose the bonus. What you can't do is put exp into the newer weapon if you keep putting it on a maximum old weapon.

 

[Amir0x]

That's cool.

Anyway, personally I hope more developers make games starring characters who are inherently positive and happy. I just hope that when they do, they make the character relate-able and not these poor caricatures of someone who is happy.

 

[sdornan]

Spoiler

What if she was, you know, just acting?

Then why doesn't every other character immediately ask "Why are you being so obnoxious, and why are you

Spoiler

so terrible at acting

?"