What about the end boss of that 100 floor basement in Bevelle in FFX-2 which is required to unlock the 100% ending? That's an example of story being blocked by a difficult boss.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
What about the end boss of that 100 floor basement in Bevelle in FFX-2 which is required to unlock the 100% ending? That's an example of story being blocked by a difficult boss.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
The FFXIV team likely learned from the mistakes of FFXI. This isn't FFXI and thankfully never will be. Some people are just stuck in the past. Accept your casual future and enjoy the larger player base that comes with it.
UpsideDownAce
Member
You guys should try crafting and gathering. That's plenty to do!
I'm going to hold off on blasting SE for easy content until we see Savage Mode. I will admit that something is lost when the canonical version of the fight is super easy, buuuuuut, 2.0 definitely needed more content for mid-tier players.
Besides, if my group falls apart, at least this time I won't miss out on storyline stuff.
Besides, if my group falls apart, at least this time I won't miss out on storyline stuff.
Larger player base? In 2005, FFXI had a subscribed player base (accounts, not characters) of over 1.5 million. It has lasted 14 years.
While FFXIV is significantly less: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/33cc1k/latest_lodestone_population_survey_730k_active/
Fates need to be more interesting / multi parts and be like mini scenario quests. That would go a long way.
I'd love this! But it would be even better if it was something that FCs could get together people of all skill levels and actually have a challenge. That is the main problem, they need to find a great medium with a bit of randomness.
I'd love this! But it would be even better if it was something that FCs could get together people of all skill levels and actually have a challenge. That is the main problem, they need to find a great medium with a bit of randomness.
Two Words: Pandemonium Warden. That boss should tell you all you need to know why they will NEVER go back to that type of content ever again. CoP is looked fondly on by those who beat it, and those who didnt beat until to the nerf now also enjoyed story and enjoyed the content, no matter the difficulty of the content, it is still enduring. The level capped open fields, the bosses that seemingly required certain job combination, the difficulty in doing the content without forming statics, again in which could be flexible is content that just is not acceptable in ANY way anymore in the MMO space, especially for the main content they intend to put resources into. I hate to say this but you aren't getting this content anymore period, especially not from this dev team after the nightmare press of Pandemonium Warden.
I'm going to need a quote of that 1.5 million active playerbase because what I remember was that is 1.5 million active characters, this included Alts people registered to be used as Mules.
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Careful you might break his rose tinted glasses and kill his casual stomping hard-on.
Notice the lack of the word active there. That's everyone that has ever subscribed, not who's actively playing. It's much lower as shown by my post.
EDIT - I mean even ignoring my stats, look at Idylshire on Ultros and compare that to medium sized world's Jeuno back in the day in FFXI. That game was absolutely full of people in comparison. Hell, compare S ranks to camping HNM's in FFXI and the HNM's were limited to the top end / hardcore of FFXI. FFXI averaged 2k active players on each server at any one time when I was playing. How many players are on Ultros right now?
How is asking for 1 or 2 extremely hard / near impossible bosses casual stomping? It's variety and keeps the game fresh.
Tabris I hope you can come up with the defacto active subscriber count for FFXI during that time period because I found my evidence you are wrong.
"It is our distinct pleasure to announce that during the third week of April, the total number of active characters across all worlds in FINAL FANTASY XI has exceeded the two million mark for the first time!"
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/0904/topics_all.html
Note they didnt say subscriber base but active characters, that includes mules and most of the players I knew had minimum 2-3 mules per character with a ton of people going to the max 16 characters. Still a lot of money but the whole point you are trying to talk about is active players. The account I can find that talks about active subscriber base is something closer to 600-700k around the time of Aht Urghan and the Xbox360 release.
Azzurri
Member
Here's what I think.
Yes, FFXIV has probably had more total subs then FFXI, but it seems to ME that people don't stick around as long as they did for FFXI for some reason or another. I dunno if it's the nature of the current state of the genre or if the content is just too easy to beat and players get bored and don't stick around.
Yes, FFXIV has probably had more total subs then FFXI, but it seems to ME that people don't stick around as long as they did for FFXI for some reason or another. I dunno if it's the nature of the current state of the genre or if the content is just too easy to beat and players get bored and don't stick around.
I'm just hoping for some challenging 24-man content this time around.
Or, more preferably, I hope they increase raid size to 10 mans. That allows more accessibility to the new jobs, and more design creativity in encounters. Right now, I feel the 8 man structure really limits them to creating only 2-tank, 4 dps, 2 healer fights, with some encounters being tankable by a single person. I'd love to see something akin to the Four Horsemen fight in WoW, but that doesn't seem feasible with the current raid size at all.
Or, more preferably, I hope they increase raid size to 10 mans. That allows more accessibility to the new jobs, and more design creativity in encounters. Right now, I feel the 8 man structure really limits them to creating only 2-tank, 4 dps, 2 healer fights, with some encounters being tankable by a single person. I'd love to see something akin to the Four Horsemen fight in WoW, but that doesn't seem feasible with the current raid size at all.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Hey guess what? You may get those in savage. They made it known from the start that this first version of Alex would be baby mode, do you really think they should have made a hard boss in baby mode? I don't seem to remember you whining about there not being a hard boss in any of the CT raids, what is so different about CT and Alex normal? The casual stomping will be in 2 weeks, just like Coil did pretty well at casual stomping also until people got geared/echo.
I'd like to think most players are a mix of parts casual and hardcore. Most FFXI group content aside from AV and so on weren't so hard to where you had to have a static. Just some linkshell teamwork was enough (BCNMs, Emptiness, HNMs, Dynamis, Salvage, Moblin Maze Mongerers, etc). I'm still looking for the not casual but not hardcore. A happy medium difficulty that was say...the first three extreme primals. Sure, people beat their heads against Titan EX, but it never felt impossible.
EDIT: For HNMs I mean difficulty wise, not "I have enough time to sit in this one spot for an entire day".
EDIT: For HNMs I mean difficulty wise, not "I have enough time to sit in this one spot for an entire day".
I want unique bosses. I don't want the same bosses, just tuned for harder play.
You'll need to not stand in the slop ONLY BETTER THIS TIME
Man this thread sure swung from "I am having fun ^_^" to "fuck this and that and this and that".
Azzurri
Member
This is every MMO ever made, not just FFXIV Lol
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Casual stomping boner intensifies.
Man that's every game ever made.
irfaanator
Banned
the e-peen is strong in mmo's. Gotta be world first in alex normal
lol, how is it casual stomping? They have the entire game as of 3.01, I don't think asking for a boss or 2 designed for that is asking too much.
And I've shown a game that was more successful then FFXIV as having that. FFXI was nice due to the variety of content.
It's variety, for a small percentage of the player base, it keeps the game fresh, for a small percentage of the player base.
Was being the operative word, you mentioned the game lasted fourteen years, fourteen years is a long time, what people want from games and MMO's has, unsurprisingly, changed. Clearly the majority of the audience isnt interested in it or theyd be playing games that cater to it (or FFXI). I dont think its casual stomping, not least because Im not sure what that means, but I do think youre in for disappointment if you expect it to happen as "Savage modes" seems to be SE's answer to the issue at the moment (if the hardcore progression raiding demand explodes they may change their approach, cant see either happening though)
Azzurri
Member
I agree with you, but I don't think you can just because it's not that type of MMO, The market has shifted to casual. This is a Theme Park MMO, it isn't that OW MMO that FFXI was. There's so many option now that people probably would quit even if it's two bosses that people coudln't finish, it's just how the players are now. You and I grew up playing UO EQ,SWG and FFXI, people now started with WoW and not even vanilla, but like Wrath on.
They had to design FFXIV as FXI-2 and then I could see it being like you want.
If SE announce their next mmo was FFXI-2 I'd be all OVER THAT!
I don't think it's as small percentage of the ACTIVE player base as you guys think.
Also a lot of players enjoy clearing content that once was impossible but has slowly become possible as people gear up. There should be bosses with harder gear checks where you need to have the gear possible in the next expansion unless you play it perfectly or something?
Gives the world firsts something to do, and gives the rest of us something to keep trying as we progress in gear.
Not familiar with that term, what's it mean? And...
Also a lot of players enjoy clearing content that once was impossible but has slowly become possible as people gear up. There should be bosses with harder gear checks where you need to have the gear possible in the next expansion unless you play it perfectly or something?
Gives the world firsts something to do, and gives the rest of us something to keep trying as we progress in gear.
Not familiar with that term, what's it mean? And...
Spiritreaver
Member
Yeesh.
We all want different things. You can't please everyone every patch or every expansion.
I mean hell, I want PVP to not be dead, but I've settled with having to wait nearly a month for it.
We all want different things. You can't please everyone every patch or every expansion.
I mean hell, I want PVP to not be dead, but I've settled with having to wait nearly a month for it.
The evidence you showed further increases my claim. According to one user (not even official documentation) that number was 1.5 million subscribers but never mentioned active vs liftetime (They even mention that), aka FFXIV having currently a lifetime subscriber rate of 4-5 million.
I don't think it's as small percentage of the ACTIVE player base as you guys think.
Also a lot of players enjoy clearing content that once was impossible but has slowly become possible as people gear up. There should be bosses with harder gear checks where you need to have the gear possible in the next expansion unless you play it perfectly or something?
Gives the world firsts something to do, and gives the rest of us something to keep trying as we progress in gear.
Not familiar with that term, what's it mean? And...
You are getting your worlds first stuff, but not till patch 3.05. Yoshida has said from the beginning he knows people look at that type of content as competition, and he specifically delayed the implementation so people can relax and enjoy the expansions content at a semi leisurely pace and won't feel obligated to race to lvl 60, gear up in Law gear, gear in Extreme Primal gear, get all crafters to lvl 60 so they can make HQ gear to materia meld and then supposedly work on the raid because it released the same day. I'm sorry he made the right choice, now there is even playing field for the actual skill part of completeing a raid for worlds first because there was ample time for people to prepare for it. We will be back to the normal scheduled raid fare for future patches, but with players levels increasing so much and all gear being tossed out the window the idea of getting worlds first would not have been about the skill of the team, but the skill of the people to do all nighters to max lvl as soon as possible.
Azzurri
Member
Open World no Instances, or very little, every thing is in the open making the world actually dangerous, brings the community together.
watervengeance
Member
Well, I got to level 50 and beat the main storyline for 2.0, but the last few raids sucked. Everyone was a speed runner and wasted no time destroying everything.
What should I do first (in addition to doing the main story quests)? Farm the primals on hard mode? Start crafting stuff? I play as a Warrior, and I'm afraid I won't be properly geared for the upcoming raids.
What should I do first (in addition to doing the main story quests)? Farm the primals on hard mode? Start crafting stuff? I play as a Warrior, and I'm afraid I won't be properly geared for the upcoming raids.
Theyve added a good amount of gear upgrades to the quest rewards for the main storyline, you should be fine for gear if you just keep playing the 2.1-2.05-3.0 storyline. Crafting stuff is a waste of time, running the primals could be worth it for the cosmetic or a quick upgrade if you fancy it but I wouldnt bother farming them
I just keep thinking to the following from FFXI:
1) Absolute Virtue. It was a secret boss that spawned randomly from killing another boss and it was not cleared legitimately for quite a while as people kept on trying to figure out the strategies, and it was a random pop which required a lot of farming to get to. But as gear got better with each patch and/or expansion, it became more possible.
2) Pandemonium Warden. It was the last boss of a set of bosses you had to beat using pop items that you lost after you spawned the boss. So not only did it keep you trying, but you had to do the older bosses and farming again. Lots of content there for little development effort (opposite of FFXI, little content for lots of development effort)
3) Chains of Promathia. This was an expansion with a difficult mission storyline that felt very rewarding. Later expansions and other content was available without having cleared Chains of Promathia, so it didn't gate anyone from a majority of the content in the game but it was refreshing to try.
1) Absolute Virtue. It was a secret boss that spawned randomly from killing another boss and it was not cleared legitimately for quite a while as people kept on trying to figure out the strategies, and it was a random pop which required a lot of farming to get to. But as gear got better with each patch and/or expansion, it became more possible.
2) Pandemonium Warden. It was the last boss of a set of bosses you had to beat using pop items that you lost after you spawned the boss. So not only did it keep you trying, but you had to do the older bosses and farming again. Lots of content there for little development effort (opposite of FFXI, little content for lots of development effort)
3) Chains of Promathia. This was an expansion with a difficult mission storyline that felt very rewarding. Later expansions and other content was available without having cleared Chains of Promathia, so it didn't gate anyone from a majority of the content in the game but it was refreshing to try.
Actually, that's what I think is the big issue I find with FFXIV.
There is a lot of development effort that goes into little content (dungeons that you will do a couple times) instead of little development effort for a lot of content (ex. farming pops and spawning bosses).
And I guess that's the difference between OW MMO and Theme Park MMO described above.
I like so much of the design of FFXIV but I do miss those things from FFXI.
There is a lot of development effort that goes into little content (dungeons that you will do a couple times) instead of little development effort for a lot of content (ex. farming pops and spawning bosses).
And I guess that's the difference between OW MMO and Theme Park MMO described above.
I like so much of the design of FFXIV but I do miss those things from FFXI.
I'm assuming you meant FFXIV here, but "Lots of content" seems debatable, one use items and enforced farming is transparently stretching minimal content over maximum time. A sin all MMO's are guilty of but people generally dont consider it a great feature for the designers to force you to run the same content over and over again. The same could be said for your first example as well. It might be easier to accept FFXIV for what it is if one accepts that it is not FFXI-2 and one of the reasons it is not is because the audience for that kind of experience doesnt appear to be there any more.
"Lots of content" is not the same thing as "the same content run lots of times", you seem to be mistakenly conflating the two. If a game had one dungeon and you had to run it 100 times to get an item most people wouldnt consider that "lots of content"
Make no mistake I enjoyed FFXI, and yes I did find things like that interesting, but I would not want a ton of resources spent on it and the games systems are not penalizing enough to make any type of content outside of an instance raid (which in turn requires lots of development and resources) actually difficult. What I think they do need to look into is more hardcore open world encounters under the leve system, If we did Hunts with the gear we are expected to fight the monsters with the amount people we are expected to fight them they would be alot more difficult, but the rewards are too great, and everyone can chip away at the boss, they zerg it down for no effort. But the leve system already has content gateing to keep others from attacking, it allows for more unique encounters based on where they place the location of the monster (will it be surrounded by lots of potentially aggroable mobs? Will you need some friends to help clear things out or try to fight the leve monster with that aggression factor).
Basically FFXIV problem is they depended too much on the Duty Finder system for content and thus are forced to use instances for content, this in turn means most game systems eventually need to be instanced and ultimately the cost of actually making the content goes up.
It was a decision they have put themselves in that they must choose to either keep doing that only or add more variety that doesn't require DF that is actually difficult knowing full well they can't simply 'add it' into DF later for ease of use.
I found This article that said that FFXIV exceeded the peak number of FFXI subscribers back in 2013.
With all the misleading numbers and spin out there I think no one but SE knows exactly how many paying subscribers each game has/had. But I find it very hard to believe FFXI had more. I always remember hearing that FFXI was profitable because they had a very loyal playerbase of around 300,000. But with now being on PS3/PS4 and not requiring the same time investment I have to think FFXIV has more overall although each individual subscriber probably comes and goes more.
The Pandemonium Warden boss chain has 35 bosses. Lots of different boss paths to get the different pop items to spawn the next boss. 5 tiers of bosses.
Compare that to the amount of times I've had to run content like Nevereap or Brayflox HM with the exact same experience every single time.
I think FFXIV has the worst "same content lots of time" grinds. And that's because they spend too much time on singular content instead of a more varied approach.
FFXIV is content variety dry is my issue. I'm experiencing it already. All I have currently is the new easy Alex raid to farm on Tue and Wed, then levelling up jobs (which is the bare minimum of new content in MMOs)
But its the same 35 bosses every time, its the same fights every time, I mean Fighting Boss 1-3 and the next time fighting Boss 3-1 doesnt seem meaningfully different from running Dungeons 1-3 and the next time running Dungeons 3-1. I think FFXIV is pretty good about respecting the players time, its one of the reasons I play it as I dont have as much time for MMO's as I did "back in the day"
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Except those 35 bosses cost as much development time as a single dungeon, and is hours and hours of new content to deal with. While a dungeon is a 25 minute new experience.
But I really like FFXIV, it just dries up content wise much faster then FFXI, so I want some elements from FFXI introduced. Why is that a bad thing? Do you not agree that this game dries up content wise very quickly? Why wouldn't you want content variety?
Stop trying to exaggerate the amount of work required to build a PW popset and the difficulty and differences between each ZNM. I would build like 3 popsets for each of Tinnin, Sarameya, and Tyger in like a week. Most of the early tiers of ZNMs could be farmed by one person with multiple instances of FFXI opened to hold pops.
Yup, in like a week. How long did Nevereap dungeon take you to experience?
How long did CoP or Zilart take you to complete vs HW story?
There is definitely a difference in content. In terms of game design, FFXIV is superior. But content variety it's lacking, don't you think?
PW boss chain (or Zeni NMs) was just a small part of an expansion / patch. It's comparable to one end game dungeon or one EX battle.