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[diablos991]

It's 80TP every 18 seconds, that's hardly a huge TP strain. Also if you're going to take the time to put up DOTS on an enemy, you might as well use every one you can. This is especially true if WAR and PLD are also using it. Three Fracture Dot's on a single enemy, actually adds up to quite a bit of damage.

It is a huge TP strain at 80TP. Any fight lasting longer than 3 minutes will be in trouble.
And that is false about putting up every DOT possible. You are wasting a GCD that could be used to get another part of the Full Thrust combo off which is much more potent.

There has been tons of discussion on this and the math proves fracture to be a waste on DRG.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Hmm, I just figured it was worth to sneak it in after Phlebotomize for the extra damage since the full rotation leaves some extra seconds on HT anyways. What should I use in it's place, then? The Ring of Thorns combo or what?

And well, it's not like there are better options for cross class skills anyways.

 

[WolvenOne]

You should read up on rotations instead of stating things that are factually incorrect.

What's incorrect? That Fracture is 80TB? That it's duration is 18 seconds? (except for WARs)

Seriously dude, i've checked, if you're using it correctly Fracture is a net DPS bonus. You just have to use one of the CD attacks between Fracture and Phlebotomize to compensate for the slight downtime created by using both back to back.

 

[diablos991]

Hmm, I just figured it was worth to sneak it in after Phlebotomize for the extra damage since the full rotation leaves some extra seconds on HT anyways. What should I use in it's place, then?

Nothing. Just continue on the the combo.

HT - Chaos Combo - Ph - Full Thrust Combo -HT - Full Thrust Combo - Ph - Chaos Thrust Combo - HT - Full Thrust Combo -Ph - Full Thrust Combo

 

[diablos991]

What's incorrect? That Fracture is 80TB? That it's duration is 18 seconds? (except for WARs)

Seriously dude, i've checked, if you're using it correctly Fracture is a net DPS bonus. You just have to use one of the CD attacks between Fracture and Phlebotomize to compensate for the slight downtime created by using both back to back.

You're are wrong. Your math is wrong.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/79042-Dragoons-A-Rotation-Reborn
There is some good info here I suggest you read up on before you spread misinformation.

 

[WolvenOne]

It is a huge TP strain at 80TP. Any fight lasting longer than 3 minutes will be in trouble.
And that is false about putting up every DOT possible. You are wasting a GCD that could be used to get another part of the Full Thrust combo off which is much more potent.

There has been tons of discussion on this and the math proves fracture to be a waste on DRG.

No you won't, I've gotten into several long fights with my DRG, regularly used Fracture, and never ran out of TP.

Also every bit of personal experience I have tells me that those DOT's are worthwhile to keep up. This is especially true in fights where you're going to be doing a lot of dodging, as you won't be able to keep damaging an enemy constantly unless you have those Dots up.

Unless you're saying you shouldn't dodge. Trust me, it's better to take five seconds to dodge something then it is to die and spend the next minute or two with weakness. Keeping the dots up just means that your damage won't go down as much during those moments when you are dodging.

 

[diablos991]

No you won't, I've gotten into several long fights with my DRG, regularly used Fracture, and never ran out of TP.

Also every bit of personal experience I have tells me that those DOT's are worthwhile to keep up. This is especially true in fights where you're going to be doing a lot of dodging, as you won't be able to keep damaging an enemy constantly unless you have those Dots up.

Unless you're saying you shouldn't dodge. Trust me, it's better to take five seconds to dodge something then it is to die and spend the next minute or two with weakness. Keeping the dots up just means that your damage won't go down as much during those moments when you are dodging.

People had your point of view early in 2.1 until they got proven wrong. It isn't worth it. Use a parser and find out.

If you parse higher with Fracture, then you are probably not doing the standard DRG rotation correctly.

 

[Alucrid]

No you won't, I've gotten into several long fights with my DRG, regularly used Fracture, and never ran out of TP.

Also every bit of personal experience I have tells me that those DOT's are worthwhile to keep up. This is especially true in fights where you're going to be doing a lot of dodging, as you won't be able to keep damaging an enemy constantly unless you have those Dots up.

Unless you're saying you shouldn't dodge. Trust me, it's better to take five seconds to dodge something then it is to die and spend the next minute or two with weakness. Keeping the dots up just means that your damage won't go down as much during those moments when you are dodging.

You do realize you're talking to two people who mained/main dragoons, right? Your ancedotes fall flat when nearly every source out there says otherwise.

 

[creid]

No you won't, I've gotten into several long fights with my DRG, regularly used Fracture, and never ran out of TP.

Fracture aside, I don't know how you could be playing dragoon right and not nearly running out of TP once in a while.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So what is the modern DRG rotation now? I know it got simplified a lot after people stopped using Fracture. I've been playing my DRG a bit lately, it's up to i88 now and I still feel like I have no idea WTF I'm doing.

 

[plake]

Hey guys. Dat retainer loot you just spoke about. Should I do quick ventures for those or will field explorations also benefit?

 

[WolvenOne]

People had your point of view early in 2.1 until they got proven wrong. It isn't worth it. Use a parser and find out.

If you parse higher with Fracture, then you are probably not doing the correct standard DRG rotation correctly.

Heh, the standard DRG rotation is flipping simple dude, trust me, I'm not screwing it up.

Anyhow, yes the basic rotation will give you higher burst damage, which stops entirely the moment you have to dodge. Unless you're going to just stand there are eat a plume, like so many derpgoons do, your DPS will plumet for every second you have to dodge something.

In instances like that, you're better off to have the Dots up, so you can take five seconds to run out of a Plume without your DPS stopping entirely.

 

[Alucrid]

So what is the modern DRG rotation now? I know it got simplified a lot after people stopped using Fracture. I've been playing my DRG a bit lately, it's up to i88 now and I still feel like I have no idea WTF I'm doing.

It's all in the link puppy posted. Wish the Monk thread was as nice so I could know what to do

 

[diablos991]

So what is the modern DRG rotation now? I know it got simplified a lot after people stopped using Fracture. I've been playing my DRG a bit lately, it's up to i88 now and I still feel like I have no idea WTF I'm doing.

New rotation:

H IDC P TTT H TTT

P IDC H TTT P TTT

Old rotation:

HP IDC TTT

Due to the clipping of CT that occurs with the old rotation, expect a 1.5-2% drop in DPS.

 

[diablos991]

Heh, the standard DRG rotation is flipping simple dude, trust me, I'm not screwing it up.

Anyhow, yes the basic rotation will give you higher burst damage, which stops entirely the moment you have to dodge. Unless you're going to just stand there are eat a plume, like so many derpgoons do, your DPS will plumet for every second you have to dodge something.

In instances like that, you're better off to have the Dots up, so you can take five seconds to run out of a Plume without your DPS stopping entirely.

These aren't just training dummy numbers that develop the optimal rotation. People have been through this many times. Fracture is bad.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Hey guys. Dat retainer loot you just spoke about. Should I do quick ventures for those or will field explorations also benefit?

Field Explorations take too long and you'll get shit according to your retainer's level I believe.

Quick Venture is like a Gashapon machine, it lasts one hour your retainer can do anything from going outside and getting a stick to killing the goddamn Whorleater

 

[WolvenOne]

Fracture aside, I don't know how you could be playing dragoon right and not nearly running out of TP once in a while.

I use the TP restore move when my TP hits 500, and my TP will get a little low by the time it resets, but I've never had my TP go out on me entirely before that move was recharged.

Usually there'll always be a natural pause point in fights where you can't effectively damage an enemy anyway. I use these moments to recharge TP a bit.

 

[Aeana]

It's all in the link puppy posted. Wish the Monk thread was as nice so I could know what to do

Your DPS is amazing as it is. If it could be vastly improved by a change in your rotation, I would be shocked.

 

[plake]

Field Explorations take too long and you'll get shit according to your retainer's level I believe.

Quick Venture is like a Gashapon machine, it lasts one hour your retainer can do anything from going outside and getting a stick to killing the goddamn Whorleater

Whorleater it is! Thanks a bunch!

 

[WeaponKnight]

Field Explorations take too long and you'll get shit according to your retainer's level I believe.

Quick Venture is like a Gashapon machine, it lasts one hour your retainer can do anything from going outside and getting a stick to killing the goddamn Whorleater

Best way is to do specific hunts or quick ventures while you're playing, then dispatch on a 18h trip before you go to bed. 18 hours is enough to sleep and work

 

[Stone Ocean]

It's all in the link puppy posted. Wish the Monk thread was as nice so I could know what to do

There was an article outside of the official forums on Monks that I saved some time ago. It seemed pretty good, though I've yet to read it and actually play Monk so my rotation is still basically "Punch butt, punch butt, punch sides, punch butt"

 

[diablos991]

I use the TP restore move when my TP hits 500, and my TP will get a little low by the time it resets, but I've never had my TP go out on me entirely before that move was recharged.

Usually there'll always be a natural pause point in fights where you can't effectively damage an enemy anyway. I use these moments to recharge TP a bit.

That sounds like your DRG isn't geared.
Get some more skill speed, use fracture, and see your TP float away.

 

[Stone Ocean]

That sounds like your DRG isn't geared.
Get some more skill speed, use fracture, and see your TP float away.

Oh yeah, there's that as well. You need to hit around 2.44 GCD to get an extra skill in the rotation, right?

I could see Fracture being bothersome when I get faster.

 

[WolvenOne]

These aren't just training dummy numbers that develop the optimal rotation. People have been through this many times. Fracture is bad.

That's not actually an argument, that's an appeal to consensus.

Now, if you want to use an actual argument, this is an opportunity to do so. If you're going to have to intermittently stop DPSing, and run across the field to dodge an attack, like you have to in a ton of trials, such at Titan, Leviathan, etc, why wouldn't you want to have a Dot or four up on the enemy?

I mean, yeah the main rotation does more damage, but if you're having to stop using it frequently that won't mean much.

 

[WolvenOne]

That sounds like your DRG isn't geared.
Get some more skill speed, use fracture, and see your TP float away.

my DRG is ilvl90, don't make baseless assumptions. XD

 

[Alucrid]

That's not actually an argument, that's an appeal to consensus.

Now, if you want to use an actual argument, this is an opportunity to do so. If you're going to have to intermittently stop DPSing, and run across the field to dodge an attack, like you have to in a ton of trials, such at Titan, Leviathan, etc, why wouldn't you want to have a Dot or four up on the enemy?

I mean, yeah the main rotation does more damage, but if you're having to stop using it frequently that won't mean much.

Why are you running with gap closers

 

[diablos991]

That's not actually an argument, that's an appeal to consensus.

Now, if you want to use an actual argument, this is an opportunity to do so. If you're going to have to intermittently stop DPSing, and run across the field to dodge an attack, like you have to in a ton of trials, such at Titan, Leviathan, etc, why wouldn't you want to have a Dot or four up on the enemy?

I mean, yeah the main rotation does more damage, but if you're having to stop using it frequently that won't mean much.

You do know the main rotation includes DOTs and a good DRG will anticipate melee downtime and apply DOTs appropriately.

This still doesn't make fracture good. It is low potency, short, and expensive. Downtime is not as much as you are thinking as long as you use your spine-shatter dive correctly for positioning.

If you feel the need to go against all known DRG research and assume you know better than everybody else even though you don't main DPS classes and have much less experience than those you are arguing against, go right ahead. But don't be mad when people fail a DPS check and boot you because you aren't pulling your weight.

 

[diablos991]

my DRG is ilvl90, don't make baseless assumptions. XD

Being i90 and being geared are 2 separate things.

 

[kiaaa]

TP should really only be an issue in the few long fights without DPS downtime. Most fights have some kind of mechanic that prevents you from blowing all your TP, though.

 

[WolvenOne]

Why are you running with gap closers

I'm assuming you mean, why aren't you running with GAP closers, by which I assume you to mean, those moves you use to close a lot of distance fast.

Well, in some fights I can. In others it's highly impractical. In Titan and Leviathan you're just as likely to go leaping off the arena, in Ifrit EM, if you aren't careful you can wind up in a plume or near a healer with searing wind.

I've seen people do all of this, it's quite a common occurrence.

I'd rather focus on staying alive, so I can continue to DPS, rather than using risky maneuvers to shave a second or two off my dodging time.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

I use the TP restore move when my TP hits 500, and my TP will get a little low by the time it resets, but I've never had my TP go out on me entirely before that move was recharged.

Usually there'll always be a natural pause point in fights where you can't effectively damage an enemy anyway. I use these moments to recharge TP a bit.

This is true for the early turns which have downtime in the fight or end within minutes, but try t6-8 with that mind set and it will blow up in your face. No tp using class can go 9+mins on nothing but natural tp regen and invigorate, it is impossible unless you are purposely gimping yourself and your raid by not putting out as much as you possibly can because you want to save some tp.

Yes a bard can song too, but honestly a bard should only be using army when the bard is running low on tp or someone else that uses tp has died multiple times. No other class burns through tp as fast as a decent bard does and when army is eventually needed then it benefits the other classes who could use the extra boost in tp at the same time. No one should ever expect a bard to gimp themselves because someone is using a subpar rotation and bruns through tp faster than an optimal rotation(which will happen weaving in abilities that have no business being a mainstay in your normal rotation).

 

[WolvenOne]

Being i90 and being geared are 2 separate things.

I've got plenty of skillspeed, lack of skill speed isn't the reason I'm not running out of TP. 9_9.

 

[diablos991]

I've got plenty of skillspeed, lack of skill speed isn't the reason I'm not running out of TP. 9_9.

How many times have you succeeded the DPS checks in T6-9 while using fracture?

 

[Jayhawk]

I wish there was as much discussion on MNK rotations.

The only debate I have seen recently for MNK is what to use in Brayflox HM speed runs. lol

 

[Alucrid]

I wish there was as much discussion on MNK rotations.

The only debate I have seen recently for MNK is what to use in Brayflox HM speed runs. lol

Easy, BLM.

I'm assuming you mean, why aren't you running with GAP closers, by which I assume you to mean, those moves you use to close a lot of distance fast.

Well, in some fights I can. In others it's highly impractical. In Titan and Leviathan you're just as likely to go leaping off the arena, in Ifrit EM, if you aren't careful you can wind up in a plume or near a healer with searing wind.

I've seen people do all of this, it's quite a common occurrence.

I'd rather focus on staying alive, so I can continue to DPS, rather than using risky maneuvers to shave a second or two off my dodging time.

The only time you have to run across the field in Leviathan is when the boss isn't up, or when you're attacking an add (unless your group fucked up). If you're using gap closers on the adds then trying to put up a fracture to preserve dps is meaningless since there's pretty much no loss there. If you're trying to throw dots onto the boss before he disappears then you're likely missing combos that would deal more damage.

 

[diablos991]

I wish there was as much discussion on MNK rotations.

The only debate I have seen recently for MNK is what to use in Brayflox HM speed runs. lol

MNK and speedrun. lol

Spoiler

I'm just jealous of their single target DPS

 

[WolvenOne]

How many times have you succeeded the DPS checks in T6-9 while using fracture?

You know I main as a tank. You're trying to dodge back into another logical fallacy area, specifically the, "Argument from authority," fallacy.

 

[XenoRaven]

MNK and speedrun. lol

Spoiler

I'm just jealous of their single target DPS

MNK drives me bananas because I hate being behind on single target DPS.

Also non-enhanced Fracture sucks.

 

[Alucrid]

You know I main as a tank. You're trying to dodge back into another logical fallacy area, specifically the, "Argument from authority," fallacy.

What's incorrect? That Fracture is 80TB? That it's duration is 18 seconds? (except for WARs)

Seriously dude, i've checked, if you're using it correctly Fracture is a net DPS bonus. You just have to use one of the CD attacks between Fracture and Phlebotomize to compensate for the slight downtime created by using both back to back.

Ok then. Show me.


Also still use fracture as a monk. Not stopping. (it's secretly why I switched)

 

[Ken]

So if I wnat to jump into PVP right now as fresh meat what armor set should I buy and which queues should I be joining?

 

[diablos991]

So if I wnat to jump into PVP right now as fresh meat what armor set should I buy and which queues should I be joining?

Use your i95+ weapons and your i90+ gear until you can afford i70+ pvp gear.

Enter lvl 30 and 40 PVPs to not get wrecked as hard.

If you are going as a tank, use your i90+ DPS accessories and gear yourself with i90+ dps focused armor.

 

[WolvenOne]

The only time you have to run across the field in Leviathan is when the boss isn't up, or when you're attacking an add (unless your group fucked up). If you're using gap closers on the adds then trying to put up a fracture to preserve dps is meaningless since there's pretty much no loss there. If you're trying to throw dots onto the boss before he disappears then you're likely missing combos that would deal more damage.

First.

You do have to frequently switch targets away from Leviathan, this is in part why it's so easy for the Tanks to keep hate on Leviathan once it's been firmly established. I frequently spend the entire fight in the DPS rotation after the first few minutes.

Second.

I'm told summoner Dots will still hurt Leviathan for awhile after he's disappeared, I would assume the same applies to DRG dots.

 

[Ken]

Use your i95+ weapons and your i90+ gear until you can afford i70+ pvp gear.

Enter lvl 30 and 40 PVPs to not get wrecked as hard.

If you are going as a tank, use your i90+ DPS accessories and gear yourself with i90+ dps focused armor.

The i95 PvE weapon is better than the i70 PvP weapon my retainer brought right? I don't know how morale works.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

So if I wnat to jump into PVP right now as fresh meat what armor set should I buy and which queues should I be joining?

Depends on your current gear and which queues you plan to join. The lvl 30/40 queues all your gear gets deleved(unless it's twink gear which starting off this should not be a concern).

The lvl 50 queue however you'll want to go after the ilvl 70 pvp as soon as you can since as far as pve gear goes it's equal to ilvl 100 or so(minus weps). If you're full ilvl 90 pve gear or even ilvl 80 then the crafted ilvl 55 set is absolutely worthless and not worth the effort making as it's about equivalent to darklight.

 

[Ken]

Depends on your current gear and which queues you plan to join. The lvl 30/40 queues all your gear gets deleved(unless it's twink gear which starting off this should not be a concern).

The lvl 50 queue however you'll want to go after the ilvl 70 pvp as soon as you can since as far as pve gear goes it's equal to ilvl 100 or so(minus weps). If you're full ilvl 90 pve gear or even ilvl 80 then the crafted ilvl 55 set is absolutely worthless and not worth the effort making as it's about equivalent to darklight.

I have the i70 Warwolf Bow. Should I take that over Wave Bow into level 30/40 PVP?

 

[diablos991]

The i95 PvE weapon is better than the i70 PvP weapon my retainer brought right? I don't know how morale works.

i70 weapons is better in lvl 50 pvp.
i95 bow will be better or equal is lvl 30 and 40.

 

[Alucrid]

I decided to update my Dragoon in line with the current rotations

 

[Ken]

i70 weapons is better in lvl 50 pvp.
i95 bow will be better or equal is lvl 30 and 40.

Ah okay.

 

[diablos991]

I decided to update my Dragoon in line with the current rotations

Fracture is obviously stronger than LB. Looks like you have more optimizing to do.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I decided to update my Dragoon in line with the current rotations

Cold hearted haha