they went back and bumped up those weapons, and then repeated the decision with coil2. yes, the game is young, but when two rounds of BiS lists all start with Allagan weapons it's kind of apparent how SE feels about creating a distinction between end game raiders and everyone else.
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they went back and bumped up those weapons, and then repeated the decision with coil2. yes, the game is young, but when two rounds of BiS lists all start with Allagan weapons it's kind of apparent how SE feels about creating a distinction between end game raiders and everyone else.
That makes sense. This isn't even close to some of the stuff that's come before it. That said, doesn't make it less annoying. Its a subscription-based MMO, you need to expect some sort of grind aspect to it. These games aren't about instant gratification.
I do think they should boot the FATE stuff from this sort of thing though. Be creative and try to design something interesting within the game world.
I'm aware of this, but think of it like this.
The Zodiac weapons will have required.
Potentially hundreds of hours of fate grinding.
Innumerable dungeons runs for Myth.
Killing 900 overworld mobs.
Either dozens of hours of Spirit Binding or Millions of Gil.
Whatever the heck the grind for Zodiac is going to be.
I know it might offend the raiding community, but, I think all that might be worth a +5 ilvl boost, late in the current raid cycle.
Also, again, they stated outright that further progression quests on the Zodiac weapon would be introduced in every major patch. So I kinda doubt they're going to hold off on anymore updates until 2.4, that'd directly contradict their prior statements.
This doesn't have anything to do with the raid community, this is about SE's own design goals and how they have repeatedly framed coil. If time invested was really going to equate power than Animus would of been stronger than tome weapon as is.
Relic is there as a carrot progression for those that cannot go after the raid stuff, they've never given any reason to suspect it will be better than what is available from raiding. As for it going to 115 in 2.3, it seems like if there was going to be a big advancement on that front they would of talked about it by now. Instead all they have said is that there will be more ways to get Alexandrite for Novus. (Which technically could be taken as new progression quests if you really want to hold them to that)
I don't care about what they do to be honest, if they make it 115 in 2.3 so be it, but as others have said you may be setting yourself up for disappointment by expecting something that goes directly against how developers have designed everything thus far.
high allagan weapons
getting 7 other like-minded people to invest significant hours into practicing and learning the same encounter over and over again, with each player pushing their classes to the best of their abilities, while trying to find a schedule that works for 8 people who may or may not even live in the same country as you.
Yeah, they might not put the next chunk of the Zodiac quest in 2.3. However, there are interim patches in between 2.3, and 2.4, and they clearly aren't afraid of putting Zodiac stuff in those interim patches.
do you really believe there should be no distinction in the rewards for completing zodiac and completing T9 or another difficult raid?
tiggerkiddo
Member
That sort feature for the crafting log is so useful, I love it.
What I believe hardly factors into it. Clearly the developers think that all players should eventually have access to roughly equivalent gear, and not just after content's been nerfed either. Case in point, making ilvl110 gear available to non-coil groups in 2.3. Making Myth gear roughly equal to and sometimes better than first coil armor, and making alternative means to acquire ilvl 100, and 110 weapons outside of going into Coil.
None of this is really, surprising, per say. It's not only entirely consistent with these developers, it's, very reasonable from a game design point of view.
You don't treat the non-raid groups like second class citizens, especially given that they're the ones paying the bills. It makes perfect sense to give them their own goals and accomplishments to work for.
i110 and i115 is rougly equivalent gear though
So are you going to pass up a High Allagan weapon if it falls for you? Obviously not, we both know that the ilvl115 weapons are going to be more desirable than ilvl110.
Similarly, we both know that grinding out a Zodiac is going to be a huge accomplishment in its own right. It's at the very least going to be a testament to a players determination, if nothing else.
So I don't see a problem with it being ilvl115, given the investment players will have put into it. Nor do I see a problem with it being available before the next time they raise the ilvl.
Pellegri Testament
Member
How is literally handing non raiders the 2nd best gear in the game treating them like second class citizens? WoW has done it for years and outside of a minority chiming in daily that they should be handed the best gear for logging in, it's done them pretty well I would say. Non raiders DO NOT NEED the absolute best gear when they do not do the raid it comes from. Seriously wth would people even do with it in this game? Name me a single instance outside of raiding where 2nd best is not good enough, oil and sand are one thing because I can GUARANTEE they will not be handed out on a silver platter in CT2.
Why should non raiders be able to make a bis weapon when the content where an equivalent weapon comes from is still relevant? They have said multiples times that they will continue to add onto the relic chain(something that is not being done in 2.3 since it is not raising the ilvl, it has been confirmed). They have also said in 2.35+ they will keep adding onto it, I would say by then Coil 2 is no longer relavent since they are preparing for Coil 3 not even 2 months later. People do not need the absolute bis weapons for doing nothing but grinding easy content when the latest tier is still relavent, they can whine all they want but in the end of the day they will still eventually obtain that high end weapon, that time will be when most core raiders no longer consider the tier worth doing as more than just preparing people for the next tier.
It may sound elitist as hell but in all honesty just handing people the best gear they can obtain without a massive amount of rng or grind is bad mmo game design. You do not want "the people who pay the bills" to get the best shit available soon after it's been opened to the raiders, because the moment you do that is the moment that all "those people" suddenly see that there is no reason to login anymore since they literally have the best there's going to be for another 3-4 months. Where as all the core raiders will continue to run the content for the best gear after most of their group has everything they can get because it prepares them for the new tier, handing it out to everyone else once the most hardcore groups have finished the tier just makes it so more and more people see little point in doing the raid when they can just get handed the best gear for casually grinding and not having to worry about potential drama or stress.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Honestly having just an i95 weapon from Levi or Twin will be more than enough for anything except the toughest turns of Second Coil.
So, let me get this straight.
First, Pelligri, you're equating the grind to go from Zenith to Zodiac as, "just logging in everyday?"
Second, if they're putting out the Zodiac weapons in one of the interim patches between 2.3 and 2.4, Second Coil isn't going to be current content for very much longer.
Third, technically you don't need those ilvl115 weapons to clear anything either. They're mainly trophy's, and at most give you a slight head start on the next tier of content.
First, Pelligri, you're equating the grind to go from Zenith to Zodiac as, "just logging in everyday?"
Second, if they're putting out the Zodiac weapons in one of the interim patches between 2.3 and 2.4, Second Coil isn't going to be current content for very much longer.
Third, technically you don't need those ilvl115 weapons to clear anything either. They're mainly trophy's, and at most give you a slight head start on the next tier of content.
Pellegri Testament
Member
I'm equating the grind as something that anyone and their mom can just login for an hour or 2 a day and just do and eventually they will get it without super hardcore grinding. Because of who this grind is meant to be for, you cannot seriously equate this to a group bashing their heads against t9 or even earlier turns for the best drops.
As I said, if the next upgrade is between 2.3 and 2.4 then Coil 2 will not be current for much longer. What you are saying though is the current upgrade should have been ilvl115 and in for 2.28/2.3 where Coil 2 will still be relavent for another month and a half or so. The moment you start giving non raiders all the bis gear is the moment the tier is no longer relavent, why do a stressful raid when you could do nothing but grind bray or CT2 all day?
"Trophies" that give raiders a head start for the next tier. Let me ask, if non raiders don't raid, what would they need a "trophy" for when they don't have anything to prepare for in the next tier that they won't be doing anyway? As a raider the entire point of raiding past seeing the content/having fun, is to prepare for the next tier of content. It is a neverending grind that is only completely reset when an expansion launches, you gear up in the last tier to do the next tier. If 2nd best isn't good enough for the people not raiding, then maybe they should get in on what the rest are doing...you know...raiding.
You do not "need" the best gear from a new tier of content when that tier just came out. What you do "need" though is the best gear from the last tier of content to even have a chance of doing well in the new tier, something that non raiders shouldn't have an issue understanding when it comes to gear raid gear progression, this however is false when so many haven't understood that point for over 10 years when it's how it's always been in gear progression mmos.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Tia just stop. Go level up your crafts or something...
We both know full well that non-raid players often need to overgear slightly, just to get, "into," raiding.
Also, if the non raid players have nothing to work for, why should they keep logging in, keep playing, and keep paying to keep the game going?
Non raid players, still need their own gear progression game, just like raid players. The difference here is that, the developers are obviously designing it so non-raiders get equivalent gear, "later."
That doesn't particularly strike me as an unreasonable approach.
Also, if the non raid players have nothing to work for, why should they keep logging in, keep playing, and keep paying to keep the game going?
Non raid players, still need their own gear progression game, just like raid players. The difference here is that, the developers are obviously designing it so non-raiders get equivalent gear, "later."
That doesn't particularly strike me as an unreasonable approach.
Not even true in the slightest. A few party finder groups putting out unreasonable expectations does not equal the need to be overgeared to just get in the gate.
Pellegri Testament
Member
It's the way it's always been done though in gear progression mmos. This game was actually one of the few in the last several years that gave people raid equivalent gear for doing nothing but grinding 4mans. Something that Square saw as a fault and they fixed it with 2.2 so people couldn't get raid equivalent gear for doing little more than logging in, because seriously when it comes to the most common 4mans people run for currency, you may as well be doing nothing but logging in and facerolling your way to bis.
It may not make sense to some, but there is a reason why non raiders are treated as "2nd class citizens" when it comes to what quality gear they can obtain. It has always been this way in most mmos, if you want the best gear you raid for it, if don't like raiding then you settle for 2nd or 3rd best through endgame currency. That 2nd or 3rd best gear is there to prepare non raiders for the possibility that they too may be able to hang with the raiders once they get that extra boost that endgame currency gear provides over their current gear. Bis gear is meant to prepare raiders for the next tier of content, that is their grind. 2nd or even 3rd bis is meant to be something that non raiders have something to work towards even if it is doing nothing but 4mans or an extremely long grind, this is what they are meant to work with when it comes to preparing for any possible raiding they do.
I'm not posting just to get multiple pages of a neverending loop of trying to explain what is and what isn't when it comes to raiders vs non raiders. I am literally just saying, this is how it is when it comes to mmos like this(gear progression), it is something that is pretty much never changing except for a few rare exceptions. It's just how things go, trying to debate it further on this forum will result in nothing other than people wanting the debate to stop. If you or anyone else really wants things to change when it comes to how gear is handled, this is something that should be brought up on the official forums to attempt to attract a much larger crowd and potentially people who have a say in decision making.
So much back and forth bitching and whining in here, sheesh. I think the smart end game raider would be up to date on their relic no matter what because at the very least, when we are heading for the final raid of this expansion cycle it'll either be the best weapon or tied as the best weapon and it's going to be hard to deny that the weapon that can have whatever stats you want won't be in BiS discussions.
HylianScribe
Member
Since nobody in FC chat is answering, as long as you have Animus equipped, ANY FATE can drop an alexandrite? Or is it only FATES in certain zones like Atmas?
unfortunately, item levels kind of kick it out of discussion pretty quickly
Pretty sure it's any FATE.
The in-game text just says "participating in FATEs with your animus equipped," so it must be any FATE.
HiddenAway
Member
Can someone tell me whether completing a High/Expert roulette as a full preformed party still gives the daily tomestones reward? I know that the Adventurer in Need bonus doesn't count.
You still get the tomestone bonus. Wouldn't be much point to it otherwise.
Pellegri Testament
Member
It will drop ilvl 100 gear with an extremely small chance of sand/oil which can upgrade weathered armor. It's the same as how CT was in 2.1, it is always meant to be an easier raid than Coil just that it's 24man instead. They went with the 8man(hard) - 24man(easy) - 8man(hard) route where the 8man will always be the harder of the 2 and will always drop the better gear, until an expac comes out do not expect any meaningful content above 8man.
Matt Attack
Member
I spent way too long on the sightseeing log today, and yet I've only got like 11 or 12 entries done. It's pretty hard thus far, and these are supposed to be the easy ones...
Unknown Soldier
Member
PLEASE NOTE THAT SOME THINGS HAVE CHANGED FOR THIS WEEK. PLEASE READ AND SIGN UP. THANK YOU!
Saturday Night Fights: Second Evolution
Date: Saturday, June 7th
Time: 3 PM Pacific/6 PM Eastern
Who: You, baka
What: Your face, getting wrecked
Where: Ultros
Why: Patch 2.28 unlocks all PvP skills by default
General Information:
The goal of GAF PvP Nights is to get a bunch of Gaffers who would otherwise not PvP to be able to do so in a fun environment where everyone is rank nothing except our several PvP veterans and all gear is the same to remove the crazy effect of gear weighting in this game's PvP. We can form up into groups, wreck each others' faces, talk some trash, and generally have a good time. There's a side benefit of having instant queues and a steady stream of PVP XP and Wolf Marks for all participants, which will certainly help everyone get some kind of baseline gearing for the upcoming Frontlines.
How to Kill Your Friends in a Few Easy Steps:
Gear: In order to enforce some kind of gear normalization, everyone who participates must be wearing Full AF1, the set which you got for leveling your job to 50. Your weapon must be PvE i90 or i95, this means you will be allowed to have Primal EX (Primal Focus), Levi EX, Allagan, or Relic Zenith or non-upgraded Relic Atma. You can have whatever accessories you want on your right-hand slots as long as they are PvE accessories. No PvP-specific gear will be allowed, period.
Special Case: For Marauders, they cannot equip the AF1 gear because it's specific to Warrior. For this particular job, the crafted i55 Militia set will be allowed.
Skills: As of patch 2.28, all basic PvP skills are now unlocked by default. There is no restriction on usage of skills.
Teams: PvP is currently a 4v4 Arena affair in the Wolves' Den. We will divide the players who arrive into teams of 4, queue the 4v4 50 cap tier in Glorious Nippon, and proceed to beat the living hell out of each other. Depending on which teams are winning regularly, I hope to rebalance the teams periodically during the course of the event. Unfortunately if a number of players not equal to a multiple of 4 shows up, we will have to do rotation of players in and out so everyone gets a chance to play. I'll probably be bad at this, so please only show up in a multiple of 4 so as to make my life easier.
Organization: There will be a calendar entry on Guildwork and a signup sheet so you can sign up. I will ask that people please sign up and enter their PvP Ranking in the Comments field. The goal is to normalize rankings so that teams will have average Ranking within 3, this will ensure the fastest queues because of how the game's matchmaker works.
Signup Sheet:
http://neogaf.guildwork.com/schedule#!events/53917226002aa8445368cf9c
lazybones18
Banned
will have to wait until maintenance is done before I finally get my first book. still haven't decided which book I should get though
Haman Karn
Member
Sorry Ilya but I'm not so enthusiastic about repeating the same format. It clearly had its flaws last week.
4 vs 4 = stand around for a while until I get matched against Drama's team for the fifth time in a row. Need to at least try solo queuing since it solves the whole balancing and uneven number of players problem at the same time (while giving the chance for a match against win traders maybe? unknown but probably not a problem).
And Mu Pod shouldn't get an exception rule added. He needs to play warrior or go home and be a family man.
Edit: Note I probably can't attend this time anyway. Just wanted to give my thoughts on it.
4 vs 4 = stand around for a while until I get matched against Drama's team for the fifth time in a row. Need to at least try solo queuing since it solves the whole balancing and uneven number of players problem at the same time (while giving the chance for a match against win traders maybe? unknown but probably not a problem).
And Mu Pod shouldn't get an exception rule added. He needs to play warrior or go home and be a family man.
Edit: Note I probably can't attend this time anyway. Just wanted to give my thoughts on it.
Found several of the sightseeing spots, but I guess the weather was wrong. Kinda funny to see bunches of people stacking on a spot spamming emotes. How would it be if there was one that said something like "amid an air of hopelessness I gazed upon a field of death"; "the Black Shroud"?.
(because Odin)
Unknown Soldier
Member
The way the matchmaker works, it will always try to queue solo players with other solo players of the same rank. If that fails it will wait around, I've heard it waits 3 minutes before it expands search by 3 ranks outside of your rank. The result of this is that our massive number of lower ranked players will probably match up immediately and go into fights. The smaller number of higher ranked players will probably sit in queue forever.
Furthermore, it doesn't solve the problem of people always seeing the same teams, in fact it will likely make that worse as the matchmaking algorithm will calculate the same solution over and over again and the same players will be placed on the same teams. Furthermore if the matchmaker can't find players of exactly the same ranks it will wait around and drag out everyone's queues when the goal is for queues to pop instantly.
Currently the only class in PvP which doesn't go as their advanced job is Marauder. I only thought of this exception because several other people last Saturday were going as Warrior because they didn't know about the Militia set and they normally PvP as Marauder. The Warrior on my team most of the day in particular told me that he was only Warrior because of the rule I had set where you had to use your AF1 set, otherwise he would have entered as Marauder. I guess you could say that the exception had to do with Mupod in the sense that only he was aware of the Militia set and so he gained an advantage over the other players who went as Warrior, so I want everyone who plays that job to have the same opportunity to go as Marauder. I don't feel that forcing players who play this job/class to go as Warrior has any benefits in terms of learning how to PvP, because it's accepted by the community that these players would go as Marauder.
damn my 2.3 hype just went down by a lot
kingofthedead45
Member
So with the introduction of levi ex being in the duty finder, I decided to go ahead and learn the fight(after watching the video) in the couple "go's" that I was able to get in, before real life called to my attention, we were able to get to the point where the rails get knocked off. As a healer, have I basically seen the whole fight mechanic wise? I think so right? If so, this fight same way easier then titan ex at least to the point I've gotten to. I'm sure hysteria with no rails is pretty bad.
You saw all the mechanics as a healer. It's pretty much just more of the same after that.
Haman Karn
Member
If true then that's really a shame, but I guess there's no way around it. Though it would probably help if people would actually stop queuing over and over when you say "I'm going to rebalance teams."
I thought the goal wasn't to train people for PvP but to have a fun GAF event. I went as Warrior intentionally and wouldn't bother going as Marauder because I'm not going to spend time getting a good weapon that Marauder can also use, and also spending gil on the i55 set even if it's not that much just to be on equal ground with others for a for-fun event seems kinda silly.
This made my day. All I need.
Oh damn, this is the best. Especially in the cities with the shards.
So I got to 50 bot las night and noticed I'm severely undergeared to get a HQ change on the spruce/fragant logs. Is materia melding necessary, or is buying the 55 gear on the mb sufficiency?
I think that's the fight in a nutshells, the last phase is just be careful of the railings and the new water plumes that appear. Don't forget as a healer to stay clear of everyone else, you do AOE periodically.
I ran Levi 7 times yesterday (was queued for that, T5 or moogle ex but only levi was chosen), I only got past the 1st tidal wave 2 times. Lots of dying on dives, letting wavetooth dreadwash and randomly attack the gyros.
I think that's the fight in a nutshells, the last phase is just be careful of the railings and the new water plumes that appear. Don't forget as a healer to stay clear of everyone else, you do AOE periodically.
I ran Levi 7 times yesterday (was queued for that, T5 or moogle ex but only levi was chosen), I only got past the 1st tidal wave 2 times. Lots of dying on dives, letting wavetooth dreadwash and randomly attack the gyros.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I think you need like 378 in gathering to even sniff fragrant logs so lots of melding is needed.
That's crazy. The road to master botanist/carpenter is probably not for me, too much gils for that.
i think it's just a tidal wave attack after the rails come off that increases party damage that you need to be ready for. can be a pain if it comes at the same time as gyres die and people are a bit low
lazybones18
Banned
Question regarding grand company levequest requirements in a Trials of the Braves book. Is the GC Levequest that's selected based on the grand company I'm a part of or is it random between the three GCs?
This one thing that bothers me about this game. I really don't know what effect the stats have on the game. There is an explanation obviously in the game but I struggle to see the real application of it in the game. When choosing between spell speed or determination, for example, I really don't have a clue which to go for. It's all too nebulous. I can't see the increased damage numbers from det or the increased cast time from spell speed. So I really don't feel like I can make informed decisions.
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