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Final Fantasy XIV |OT5| All You Need is Gil

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studyguy

Member
I have zero issues with PLD aside from the fact that we'll never get back Holy Succor. Not like I need it though.
I personally wish they reverted Shield Swipe back to Wardrum. Pacification is all but useless in PvE. At least Wardrum gave us another agro tool.

Only time I ever use WAR over PLD is T7, snap aggro for OT just feels better on WAR. Not having to bother timing halones is nice, other than that I prefer PLD 100% of the time.


Why would you leave Cape Westwind if you're in a roulette. It's like 3 min of work for an easy reward.
 

supergiz

Member
So I was doing a mysterious map against the cyclops with the enormous amount of adds that come out. I die on the adds part. My chocobo not only finishes off the adds but kills the map boss from 12% to dead. I get rezzed and open the chest. Just want to say good job bobo thanks for being there for me!

Also shout out to scything for the rez so I could open the chest.
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
I keep getting the 9k error on PC since last night. Does anyone know what's going on?

Might be your local problem, I don't think there's a widespread DC right now.
So I was doing a mysterious map against the cyclops with the enormous amount of adds that come out. I die on the adds part. My chocobo not only finishes off the adds but kills the map boss from 12% to dead. I get rezzed and open the chest. Just want to say good job bobo thanks for being there for me!

Also shout out to scything for the rez so I could open the chest.

Scything is the best chocobo
 

DrDogg

Member
Flash doesn't get resisted. They may resist the Blind debuff but the enmity is fully applied. Also you forgot about Circle of Scorn.

If I'm doing a speed run or a huge pull or whatever, I don't even bother doing combos. I just hit Flash until they're dead or my MP pool is drained.

According to the in-game description, Circle of Scorn doesn't generate enmity. I've never found it to reduce hate at all, going by the "hate bars" that number party members by their hate.

Here's the in-game description:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30.

I will spam Flash as I feel that's about all I can do against a group of mobs, but I don't find it's as effective as using it a bit more sparingly alongside the RoH combo. If my DPS aren't on point I can hold hate just fine. I have long suspected that PLDs who do hold hate are only doing so because the DPS aren't up to par. When I play BLM, I almost always pull hate from a PLD.

it's already known that warriors have better snap aggro. When you're aoe tanking w/ pld are you spamming flash till your mana is pretty much empty? You don't want to use your combo very much when aoe tanking (just the mana combo after a while). Flash always generates the same amt of aggro (the blind is all that is resisted). Also Circle of Scorn is pretty useful too. Another thing is what weapon you're using, if you have a low level weapon you aren't going to hold threat against someone with a higher level weapon.

I actually find it works better to use Flash after 2-3 attacks instead of spamming. I've tried both ways though and it doesn't matter. Against good AoE DPS, it's extremely difficult to hold hate.

As I said above, Circle of Scorn doesn't generate enmity according to the in-game description, and I've never noticed it to have an impact, although I still use it. I see a lot of PLDs pull a group and immediately use CoS, then I promptly pull the hate from them. When they pull, then use Flash, it takes me a rotation or two to pull the hate.

When it comes to my weapon. I have Zenith for both my PLD and WAR at the moment. They're basically the same ilevel but tanking on WAR is a cake walk, while AoE tanking on PLD is considerably more difficult. It's not even a FFXI tanking challenge where you just had to be good at your job. I was a great TaruPLD in FFXI, but I don't feel PLD has the proper tools to hold AoE hate in ARR.

Don't use the Halone combo on a single target. Spread the hate around by using Fast Blade and Savage Blade on one target, then RoH on another. Make liberal use of flash in between combos. Start pulls with Fight of Flight for increased enmity.

I've never had issues tanking mob groups as a PLD main.

I also switch mob mid-combo. It's not enough because Fast Blade doesn't generate enmity and other jobs are hitting all three mobs simultaneously. I also use FoF and it doesn't have the desired impact.

Again, I feel people who have no issues holding AoE hate with PLD aren't partying with good DPS (or at least good BLMs). I have yet to find a PLD that can consistently hold hate against my BLM, and I have considerable trouble on my PLD (and no trouble at all on my WAR).

That is key though. And most DPS in dungeons gotta go fast, fast, fast, so you can't really use Overpower all that much, since no one will wait for your TP to regen between pulls. In the end as a WAR you still have to split your combo between mobs. Steel Cyclone is awesome though. Feel free to abuse that.

I've never had trouble with TP on my WAR no matter how fast we're moving through a dungeon. I monitor the hate levels of the other party members and that determines how often I use Overpower. I'll toss in Flash if need be, and mix in Steel Cyclone, but TP has never really been an issue on my WAR so long as I'm paying attention.
 

dramatis

Member
So I was doing a mysterious map against the cyclops with the enormous amount of adds that come out. I die on the adds part. My chocobo not only finishes off the adds but kills the map boss from 12% to dead. I get rezzed and open the chest. Just want to say good job bobo thanks for being there for me!

Also shout out to scything for the rez so I could open the chest.
Geez. Send your chocobo to the coil parties.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Enmity is generated by any kind of damage. A skill that says "Increases Enmity" merely has a hidden Enmity multiplier, usually to the tune of 3x.

These are relevant:
kQcJbQI.png

eojz7cF.png


The only time I really struggled with holding Enmity on AoE is when the BLM outgeared me by some 10 ilvls, including the weapon. The BLM in question complained a lot, until they looked at my gear. Then they apologized, saying I was doing a pretty good job for someone as undergeared as me.

I wasn't sure if they were being sarcastic or genuine, insulting or apologetic, but there you go.
 

WolvenOne

Member
Ah Ken said, it deals standard enmity, and being off GCD means that if you time the use right, it can result in a fair burst of enmity right at once, for example, if you hit it immediately after a flash, or a Halone combo.

Honestly though, I would give it an .5 enmity bonus anyway, and reduce it's CD by, I dunno, five to ten seconds, just as a gift to the less experienced players. It wouldn't put them on par with WAR for aoe emnity, but it'd help a little.
 
I have long suspected that PLDs who do hold hate are only doing so because the DPS aren't up to par. When I play BLM, I almost always pull hate from a PLD.
You will always pull hate no matter what if you go all out when the tank pulls. You're supposed to wait for one or two GCDs before unloading, usually as a BLM that means starting with Thunder.

The only time you can go all out is when you're doing AoE with a Warrior tanking.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
If the chart is accurate, there's no reason for a PLD to use a GCD on Fracture when they can just do a single Shied Lob, since Fracture's full Enmity potential comes in over 30 seconds, and WAR gets a Trait to up the Fracture DoT duration.
 

Ken

Member
You will always pull hate no matter what if you go all out when the tank pulls. You're supposed to wait for one or two GCDs before unloading, usually as a BLM that means starting with Thunder.

The only time you can go all out is when you're doing AoE with a Warrior tanking.

Eh, most classes are designed to naturally take one or two GCDs before they ramp up to aggro-stealing levels (or they have Quelling Strike). The only real troublemaker is Dragoons because their damage is so frontloaded (Power Surge Jump to Life Surge'd Full Thrust to Dragon Fire Dive, etc.) and their only emnity reduction move is a disengage.

Your example of BLMs using Thunder at the start of pulls is ironic because most time the cast to finish as the pull begins and the point is to fish for Thundercloud proc for even more burst lol. More apt would be BLM doing the Blizz3 opener rotation.

If the chart is accurate,

It's not and it hasn't been in a year.
 

WolvenOne

Member
The PLD chart is missing the most important cross-class skill: Fracture.

Fracture actually is a decent single target enmity generator, but only if you hit people with it while bloodbath is active. That little bit of self healing over time adds up to a decent enmity bonus, especially if you're going all out with other moves at the same time.

Also, while it's true that WAR are excellent with AoE emnity, parties do need to intermittently slow down so they can regenerate TP and MP. If the party pushes too fast they're forced to use single target attacks at a slow pace, and when that happens their aoe enmity falls apart. An experienced WAR will take this into mind and time their pulls and output accordingly, but some parties are impatient, or take too long to burn down mobs, etc etc.
 

WolvenOne

Member
One final note, if you're a Warrior, in dungeons, Steel Cyclone is your best friend. Inner Beast is your best friend during boss fights, but Steel Cyclone is roughly the equivalent of two Overpowers, applied over a large range, with no TP/MP cost.

Wise use of Steel Cyclone will make big pulls much much easier, and really spare your TP/MP.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Well it's not the first place I've heard about PLD cross classing Fracture so I thought it was A Thing.

crazy.gif
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
It's dyeing.

Dyeing.

Stop killing your chocobos everyone.
 

WolvenOne

Member
With that chart it seems there's no guaranteed way to get Snow White. You could end up with Icy Blue and then there's no way to change it?

Still dissecting that myself, I think a fruit that lightens the blue hues. (Not sure which one that is,) might do it. I'm really not certain though.
 

iammeiam

Member
With that chart it seems there's no guaranteed way to get Snow White. You could end up with Icy Blue and then there's no way to change it?

The chart is just based on reports people have made of steps they took, so when it dead ends at a color it means the end of a reported color change. You can feed to get off ice blue, it's just nobody had at the point the chart was created so you'll have to YOLO and guess how to course-correct.
 

studyguy

Member
I'm not sure Fracture + Bloodbath actually does enmity generation beyond the initial hit.
I could be wrong, I'll have to find out later tonight. I thought it didn't.

Edit, added bloodbath, I don't believe the regen from it does anything
 

studyguy

Member
Definitly does if Bloothbath is active, those micro-heals and all. Not certain about Fracture alone however.

Does it?
I know Fracture does shit all alone beyond that first hit, and even then it's pathetic.
If it does enmity generation on regen hits, then I can't imagine it's that substantial.
 

BadRNG

Member
Not sure where to begin with this. I guess first things first is that using combos at 50 against equal geared BLM/aoers is generally not going to be as effective, regardless of what you think. I've never seen someone able to pull threat off me if I just spam flash ad nauseam. It's boring as hell and I wish there was more to PLD, and not just in terms of aoe, but that is how you hold aggro in the current game. If you are actually spamming flash and you're still losing aggro, there is a gear disparity somewhere. (Or you're doing something with echo, since flash doesn't scale with echo) Second, Circle of Scorn is off the GCD, so every PLD should be using it at the start no matter what, whether they combine it with flash or combos depends on pull but if you aren't using CoS and Spirits Within on cooldown you're probably playing PLD wrong. (Special mechanics aside)

As for your final point, I could just as easily flip that on you, perhaps you can only hold aggro on WAR because you play with worse dps than you do with PLD. But that doesn't get us anywhere. I've done runs of all kinds, even a 10 min SV HM once with HA wearing BLM/BRD, and only time I've ever experienced issue with PLD aoe aggro is if I am doing something wrong. Usually the culprit is I stop flashing too early, as I try to begin either helping dps or regaining MP for the next big pull.

It sounds like the culprit is just that you're attempting to keep aoe aggro on PLD the same way you do on WAR, and you can't really do that. Overpower, per use, just does a lot more aggro. However a WAR will bottom out on TP well before a PLD will bottom out on MP, and therefore over time the aggro adjusts. You can't do a couple flashes and expect your aggro to be anywhere near a couple of overpowers.

I personally think PLD needs a complete overhaul so it's not so brain dead easy and boring, but it's aoe aggro capabilities aren't really part of the issue. In terms of aoe the bigger problem is just that we can't do much damage, which will slow most runs down unless you have a very good healer (good luck with that). I've been going as WAR lately for my roulettes just because it's faster, and the defensive capabilities of a PLD aren't really needed in them.

Definitly does if Bloothbath is active, those micro-heals and all. Not certain about Fracture alone however.
There is no aggro gain from Bloodbath besides the miniscule amount given from using any buff, the self heal stuff doesn't do anything.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Would a DPS specced WAR would do more than a DPS specced PLD?
 

studyguy

Member
Would a DPS specced WAR would do more than a DPS specced PLD?

I haven't seen anyone post any parse for balls to the wall WAR deeps.
Just more PLDs going 350. I dunno, It hardly matters either way. Either you allow the MT WAR to do decent damage and the PLD to do stellar damage. Or you make the MT PLD do wet noodle damage and the OT WAR to do stellar damage.

If you need an OT, there's always going to be someone doing less damage on a tank job no matter what.
If you don't need an OT, then this wouldn't even be a question.
 

BadRNG

Member
Would a DPS specced WAR would do more than a DPS specced PLD?
Outside of defiance vs sword oath, the PLD will pull ahead a little, but not a lot. Add in storm's eye for the sword oath pld though and he will do a good amount more. This combined with the fact that a WAR will do more damage in defiance than a Shield Oath PLD, means WAR MT/PLD OT is considered the best overall for damage.

The only issue would be aggro, as PLD's dps and threat combo are the same thing.
 

WolvenOne

Member
PLD damage isn't all that bad actually, it's just DoT rather than being Burst Damage. WAR is better of course, but the difference isn't as huge as you think. I might note that the difference actually decreases slightly at higher levels, because the duration between auto-attacks is gradually reduced as your weapons ilvl goes up. So that auto-attack boost accounts for a lot more with an ilvl115 weapon, than with an ilvl90 weapon.

As for bloothbath, it's definitely easier to hold hate against AoE heavy DPS with bloodbath active. I do think the enmity bonus is pretty subtle, but I'm fairly certain it's there.
 

rezn0r

Member
Does anyone use a wired 360 controller and randomly have it go haywire? Like if I'm moving while moving the camera at the same time it seems to shit itself and weird things will happen, the worst being the character stays running when they shouldn't be. It was happening during Ultima's Bane and REALLY pissing me off. I've seen it happen in menus too and it's basically holding one direction down until I start hitting a bunch of things. I turned off autorun completely in options and that made no difference, and the controls are basically default for the PC version.

It seems to have only started once I moved to the Steam version, and I'm nearly positive the controller is physically fine - I have never had problems with it on any other game. It's the only wired controller I have, so I may resort to trying out an XB1 or PS4 controller but I'd really rather not.
 

BadRNG

Member
PLD damage isn't all that bad actually, it's just DoT rather than being Burst Damage. WAR is better of course, but the difference isn't as huge as you think. I might note that the difference actually decreases slightly at higher levels, because the duration between auto-attacks is gradually reduced as your weapons ilvl goes up. So that auto-attack boost accounts for a lot more with an ilvl115 weapon, than with an ilvl90 weapon.

As for bloothbath, it's definitely easier to hold hate against AoE heavy DPS with bloodbath active. I do think the enmity bonus is pretty subtle, but I'm fairly certain it's there.
WAR is only better in defiance vs shield oath, in terms of dps stances the PLD is better. You are right though that weapon speed plays a factor in Sword Oath dps, but it's not about the ilevel, just the type of sword. This is why the Tidal Wave Shamshir would be better than the same ilevel Weathered Burtang, as the thinner Shamshir has a significantly faster swing.

I am willing to bet you use bloodbath no matter what when aoeing, for obvious reasons, and you got some confirmation bias going on here. You really gotta stop making claims based on your feelings alone. There have been a lot of tests done on this, for whatever reason bloodbath is unique and the self heal does not generate any additional aggro.

Does anyone use a wired 360 controller and randomly have it go haywire? Like if I'm moving while moving the camera at the same time it seems to shit itself and weird things will happen, the worst being the character stays running when they shouldn't be. It was happening during Ultima's Bane and REALLY pissing me off. I've seen it happen in menus too and it's basically holding one direction down until I start hitting a bunch of things. I turned off autorun completely in options and that made no difference, and the controls are basically default for the PC version.
I've had this same issue before, but with a wireless controller rather than wired. I reset my config file/controller settings and it seemed to of fixed it, even though I was using default settings as well.
 

WolvenOne

Member
WAR is only better in defiance vs shield oath, in terms of dps stances the PLD is better. You are right though that weapon speed plays a factor in Sword Oath dps, but it's not about the ilevel, just the type of sword. This is why the Tidal Wave Shamshir would be better than the same ilevel Weathered Burtang, as the thinner Shamshir has a significantly faster swing.

I am willing to bet you use bloodbath no matter what when aoeing, for obvious reasons, and you got some confirmation bias going on here. You really gotta stop making claims based on your feelings alone. There have been a lot of tests done on this, for whatever reason bloodbath is unique and the self heal does not generate any additional aggro.

Bloodbath isn't always up, or I'm sometimes too harried to fire it off. However in Hunt Hate contests, assuming I'm there at the start, I'll always fire it off, and I'm almost always in a neck and neck battle for hate, if not clearly the clear leader, even if there are other WAR's around yielding High Allagan battleaxe's.

Heck, oftentimes I can come in late and still wrestle enmity away from people. XD

Edit: Bad Wolven, no braggy! D:
 

Taruranto

Member
So I was doing a mysterious map against the cyclops with the enormous amount of adds that come out. I die on the adds part. My chocobo not only finishes off the adds but kills the map boss from 12% to dead. I get rezzed and open the chest. Just want to say good job bobo thanks for being there for me!

Also shout out to scything for the rez so I could open the chest.

Which job are ya?

With SMN you can easily kill them using Blizzard 2 to bind them all.

Interesting little chart on Chocobo Dyeing.



Looks like I need a few more apples, and then a few berries, to get Dalamud Red. X_x

So happy I got the one I wanted second try lol.
 

rezn0r

Member
I've had this same issue before, but with a wireless controller rather than wired. I reset my config file/controller settings and it seemed to of fixed it, even though I was using default settings as well.

nice hopefully that does it, thank you!
 

WolvenOne

Member
Just a reminder, for those of you who aren't night owls. Still looking for a new group to run Coil with. So if anyone needs a high level WAR with Coil experience, let me know.
 
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