WeaponKnight
Member
Does it get stuck if a Scholar casts Miasma after a Shadowbind?The key is to get someone with Miasma.
I'm the kiter in our group but I'm SMN so I don't know how BRDs can do it.
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Final Fantasy XIV |OT5| All You Need is Gil
- Thread starter tiggerkiddo
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I'm the kiter in our group but I'm SMN so I don't know how BRDs can do it.
The key is to get someone with Miasma.
They were trying but it kept missing! Which wouldn't have been a thing if I could get the guy back on A before voice went out, but lolnope.
One time it did hit and the renaud was perfect, even facing the boss when stoned. Killing him when the next one popped was sad.
Shadowbind wipes out the slow it spawns with (so if he's not frozen in 10seconds it's game over), so I think miasma after Shadowbind would work out to be just a slow? Maybe? Everything I'd read previously was on SMN kiting, which seems to involve less running around once he's in position. I think BRD kiting works out to drag him to spot-> run around him until voice is cast to keep him in the same place-> Shadowbind on voice cast, because no voice is longer than SB timer-> profit!
BRD kiting is same as SMN kiting, except you can only stick Renaud for 10 secs vs the 20 secs or so of Miasma.
The only time that is an issue is if the Renaud spawns right next to the other renauds (if 4 stacking), so you have to kite it away for a couple secs, then back to before sticking it, depending on your renaud to voice+shriek timing (which is determined by phase transitions). Essentially you want to stick the renaud between 2 secs before or after voice happens (to account for long or short voices from the healers) to the way marker. While SMN have 10 seconds before voice to hold it in spot. But usually voice is happening way before that.
It's a timing thing and BRDs do have it tougher than SMNs but same general mechanic.
The only time that is an issue is if the Renaud spawns right next to the other renauds (if 4 stacking), so you have to kite it away for a couple secs, then back to before sticking it, depending on your renaud to voice+shriek timing (which is determined by phase transitions). Essentially you want to stick the renaud between 2 secs before or after voice happens (to account for long or short voices from the healers) to the way marker. While SMN have 10 seconds before voice to hold it in spot. But usually voice is happening way before that.
It's a timing thing and BRDs do have it tougher than SMNs but same general mechanic.
Anyone wanna help me get through T5? I've failed twice in the past week
I could help you out Friday if you still need it. NO MORE TITAN ON HELP NIGHTS
On the Scholar doing miasma for T7: Healers don't have much accuracy through your gear so you have to maximize it through non-healer accessories and food. If you can put on some casting accessories with accuracy it helps a lot. I managed to pick up the HA ring of casting and with all my other i110 healing gear equipped and with lava toad legs, the miasmas don't miss any more- well maybe one out of 50 will miss. But when they do miss it is soooo frustrating.
If you can have the healer do the miasmas it makes it easier in my experience. Lessens the load on the kiter.
Doing both Shadowbind and miasma in either order will make the Renauds sprint I think. I think it has to be just one or the other.
Tomo to be back in Titan EX within two weeks. Mark it.
My understanding of the timers is:
- Voice goes out every 25 seconds
- Miasma lasts a little over 20 seconds, can be recast on DR if needed, and doesn't remove the innate slow so if it falls off he's still shuffling around
- Shadowbind lasts 10 seconds, can't be recast, and gives the renaud superspeed
It seems like even if your spawn vs voice timers are lining up pretty terribly (which is going to happen with a group as green as we mostly were last night) and the renaud spawns right on the marker, 1 miasma + 1 DR miasma should root him the whole time unless I'm missing something. Which I might be!
Lol never PFing turn 7 'cause I don't want to kite.
My understanding of the timers is:
- Voice goes out every 25 seconds
- Miasma lasts a little over 20 seconds, can be recast on DR if needed, and doesn't remove the innate slow so if it falls off he's still shuffling around
- Shadowbind lasts 10 seconds, can't be recast, and gives the renaud superspeed
It seems like even if your spawn vs voice timers are lining up pretty terribly (which is going to happen with a group as green as we mostly were last night) and the renaud spawns right on the marker, 1 miasma + 1 DR miasma should root him the whole time unless I'm missing something. Which I might be!
Lol never PFing turn 7 'cause I don't want to kite.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Most unique strategy I've seen in T7 was where the tank constantly kept moving Melusine so the kiter didn't have to move the Renaud much. Sounded like madness since this was a pug group but we actually downed it within 30 minutes.
Could we do Garuda EX on Noob Night maybe?
Yes please!! Garuda is fun. Unless someone touches spiny.
If you're not going to bring the Renaud back to A in time for a voice, you should keep kiting it until the next voice.
That's pretty much right. SMN and BRD kiting is the same mechanically, but the difference between Shadowbind and Miasma is huge. I've tried kiting as BRD and honestly I'd rather just try to learn how to play SMN and kite with that instead.
Also I think the voice timer is somewhat random.
FFXIVs traded (a lot of, admittedly) style for substance. Ignoring that these Egis are objectively more useful than pretty much any of those game's summons (especially 11's which is the closest comparison) makes the argument more than a little disingenuous.
The Egis could definitely be...prettier, but at least we can keep them around for more than a few-seconds long stilled image/cs or have to deal with crap like Avatar Perp cost to offset/limit the on-screen graphix which was just gross.
The Primals in this game are just as impressive in this game as in any other, we just can't summon them directly and fry someone's CPU when more than a few summoners are on screen en masse.
This would be GREAT but I'm afraid they'll add it in for all classes and have it be a rare drop from a Primal pony-style.
Decided after being unofficially known as Bulbasaur to make my hair green. I like it! Still want a red chocobo though.
Just finished my Pugilist Hunting Log last night, working on main story and am almost to 50! Worked all yesterday on my hunting log because I almost lost the XP reward benefits. Mapped all of the zones I was missing as well (except dungeons). Quite a bit of XP gain. My Maelstrom log just needs a run through Sunken Temple to get the last 3 mobs in there.
This game is addictive! Except, I tried for in-game hours (more like 1 hour) trying to get that stupid lamppost in Gridania and couldn't get onto it. Ran out of time before the log entry requirements went away.
Pain of being a Failafell! Love this game though!But think of the 37 different color options we could have for him.This would be GREAT but I'm afraid they'll add it in for all classes and have it be a rare drop from a Primal pony-style.
Just a reminder, still looking for a group for Coil.
Also also, while I'm willing to help groups out with early turns tonight, even without a clear I'll be skipping ahead to the later turns by tomorrow. Need to clear coil before the next major patch after all. <_<;;
To this end, I've been told that I should just, fake it till I make it on T9, and that may be true, but I'd still prefer to have at least seen most the fight before going into any clear groups. As for people that still need help on earlier turns, I'm leveling an alt right now, so once it's done I'll be able to ignore the lockout to an extent. However, Faust won't be 2nd Coil ready for awhile.
I mean, seeing as he's only lvl19 and all.
Also also, while I'm willing to help groups out with early turns tonight, even without a clear I'll be skipping ahead to the later turns by tomorrow. Need to clear coil before the next major patch after all. <_<;;
To this end, I've been told that I should just, fake it till I make it on T9, and that may be true, but I'd still prefer to have at least seen most the fight before going into any clear groups. As for people that still need help on earlier turns, I'm leveling an alt right now, so once it's done I'll be able to ignore the lockout to an extent. However, Faust won't be 2nd Coil ready for awhile.
I mean, seeing as he's only lvl19 and all.
FFXIVs traded (a lot of, admittedly) style for substance. Ignoring that these Egis are objectively more useful than pretty much any of those game's summons (especially 11's which is the closest comparison) makes the argument more than a little disingenuous.
The Egis could definitely be...prettier, but at least we can keep them around for more than a few-seconds long stilled image/cs or have to deal with crap like Avatar Perp cost to offset/limit the on-screen graphix which was just gross.
The Primals in this game are just as impressive in this game as in any other, we just can't summon them directly and fry someone's CPU when more than a few summoners are on screen en masse.
This would be GREAT but I'm afraid they'll add it in for all classes and have it be a rare drop from a Primal pony-style.
Summons in FF are always been a display of power, even in XI with its problems (Job was gimped until your reached 75) you felt that these avatars who fought near you were powerful entities (also astral flow).
It doesn't matter that FFXIV job "works", it's not what SMN should have been about, it's a WOW Warlok basically. SMN should never have been a DoT class, if I'm playing a SUMMONER I want to SUMMON, not put dots on mobs. And FFXI on PS2 can handle avatars models just fine.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Unique LBs have been one of those things they've vaguely mentioned as 'coming when we have the time', so that would be pretty obvious; I dunno if they'll give summoners unique animations for each or just have a primal per level of LB.
You do summon. Just because the gameplay of the summoner is different doesn't mean it isn't a summoner.
Things like "it's not what ____ should have been about" pigeonhole ideas into rigid definitions that affect creativity for gameplay.
Things have slowed down a ton for me regarding the game.
I'm still playing actively, but regarding endgame, it's basically nonexistent for the remainder of this patch it looks like till my team gets its stuff sorted.
Might as well focus my efforts on getting other shit done.
Time to stack more cash to the ceiling.
I'm still playing actively, but regarding endgame, it's basically nonexistent for the remainder of this patch it looks like till my team gets its stuff sorted.
Might as well focus my efforts on getting other shit done.
Time to stack more cash to the ceiling.
I disagree. The first goal when designing ANY MMO class should be to 'work", otherwise there's no point. No matter how pretty FF11's summons were, that job was busted for years and that's simply not acceptable to either the players who like/want to job to work or the party members forced to accommodate for the greater than average dysfunctional workings, especially in the era of Duty Finder-type stuff.
Also, the PS2 could handle Summons fine because one could not keep them out indefinitely like now, and the primary thing to do was have them summoned, use one-two moves, and vanish to free up on-screen stuff. Unlike the pets now who are actually doing something that matters at all tims, and SMN is doing something besides twiddling their thumbs or using ghetto WHM Cures in the meantime.
I'm not saying there weren't other solutions than making SMN a Necromancer-type, but FF11's Summoner is exactly the result of ham-fisting a class designed entirely around single player games into an MMO, then being restricted by the expectations of those prior games to the point of mediocrity. It just didn't work, so they tried something new, and the game is better for it.
your tank stuff still an issue?
Sweet. I do always look forward to confronting that savage. She knows how to bring the pain and it's always good times. And then there's the epic music.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
GILzu
Alex
Member
While I really do not care for the role they pushed Summoner into, it's the execution that really sucks. As it stands, it's less interesting than a Warlock was in World of Warcraft 1.0 (SM/Ruin was a lot of fun!). It's very simple but very clunky despite that and for a class that is historically flashy and and powerful feeling you get none of that from XIV's iteration. For all of the good XIV does with its classical design, it really botched a couple of the jobs, SMN being the chief among those, IMO.
I still feel they would have been better off holding classes like Summoner and Bard to fit them in with a support archetype in the future. I'm not talking about XI style design as XI's combat design was just dire outside of skillchains, but fun hybrid kit and content that could support it. Really, putting SCH and SMN in at the last minute was probably a bit misguided considering how many new mechanics had to go in with them. Heck, pets still need some work.
I hope instead of just bombing in a glut of new classes for the expansion that they also work hard on cleaning up existing ones for 3.0. Most need some healthy cleanup and there's a few that are on the cusp of greatness that just need some nonsense sorted out.
I still feel they would have been better off holding classes like Summoner and Bard to fit them in with a support archetype in the future. I'm not talking about XI style design as XI's combat design was just dire outside of skillchains, but fun hybrid kit and content that could support it. Really, putting SCH and SMN in at the last minute was probably a bit misguided considering how many new mechanics had to go in with them. Heck, pets still need some work.
I hope instead of just bombing in a glut of new classes for the expansion that they also work hard on cleaning up existing ones for 3.0. Most need some healthy cleanup and there's a few that are on the cusp of greatness that just need some nonsense sorted out.
Support can work, but I doubt they'll ever put out a pure support role. Right now most of the classes they have are either pure DPS, or are essential hybrid roles.
For example.
Warriors can put out respectable DPS.
Scholars can put out respectable DPS.
White Makes can put out respectable DPS.
Bard is already pretty close to a support role, but of course, can also put out solid DPS.
The developers seem to be of the opinion that, whenever you aren't carrying out your class specific role, you should be DPS ING. Frankly, I agree with this tactic to a degree. As an Off Tank, there are useually plenty of times when I don't need to grab or Tank anything. In moments like these, it's nice to be able to dps things down a bit.
For example.
Warriors can put out respectable DPS.
Scholars can put out respectable DPS.
White Makes can put out respectable DPS.
Bard is already pretty close to a support role, but of course, can also put out solid DPS.
The developers seem to be of the opinion that, whenever you aren't carrying out your class specific role, you should be DPS ING. Frankly, I agree with this tactic to a degree. As an Off Tank, there are useually plenty of times when I don't need to grab or Tank anything. In moments like these, it's nice to be able to dps things down a bit.
SMN isn't my main but SCH is. What exactly do you find clunky about the design? My main issue with it is balance concern among the pets, but I can at least think of a few realistic situations where I'd use each pet, which is more than i can say for most pet jobs, including WoW.'s Hunter and Warlock
The majority of their spells and abilities, like most other classes, are used regularly and to good effect, rather than being "retired" as well, which I like. The Pet A.I. was legit terrible at launch, but after the last major revisions a patch or two ago I'm quite pleased outside of the odd ground targeting/positional bugs (which are pretty rare).
I do agree that opening up a support type role to bard and others might be nice going forward rather than labeling them all as "dps" and winging it with such wildly varying DPS, but my complaints about things that are already in the game are a bit more of an issue to me. Like there being 0 point right now in stat allocation 95% of the time outside tanks having fun switching to STR when soloing or on farm content (which is extra annoying as a SCH who would like to SMN sometimes but doesn't like the -30 INT penalty). Same with elemental resists, not much of a point. The sheer amount of "garbage' materia due to these sat/resists issues is also pretty annoying.
...I guess none of my issues with the game outside of the game are aesthetic ones at this time. Except for the LoBS (Lack of Booty Syndrome) epidemic that plagues the game. Not a ass worth grabbing in all of Eorzea (except mayyyyyybe male/female Roe and it's questionable at best) You start complaining about that and I will get behind it 100% (no pun intended)
tiggerkiddo
Member
Only catgirls complain about that issue
At this point I'm not even sure if it's all that great of an idea to dump all your points into mind as a scholar. I dunno maybe it's crazy but I'm dpsing a lot as SCH in second coil, especially if the WHM is doing a good job.
But then I haven't done T9 yet, seems like it might be a game changer.
But then I haven't done T9 yet, seems like it might be a game changer.
Of course you dump them all into MND. If you don't need the healing you pop Cleric Stance and all that MND turns into extra DPS. Lustrate's fine and all but you only get 3 a most a minute, and I love nice big Adlo crits and so does every tank that gets one.
If only. it was the deciding factor to roll Roe for me. I keep looking around and everywhere I go I see butts flat as floorboards. It's freaking heartbreaking.
That's right, I forgot cleric stance flipped them.
Don't see much more than normal for my usual stuff.
Ixali dailies are going to devalue anything that involves Philo mats though if it hasn't already.
tiggerkiddo
Member
With the nerf to spiritbonding and the fact that Ixali dailies get more rewarding later on, that takes away more opportunities for gil making.
Alex
Member
Oh, I'm well aware, I'm just speaking in the context of before the reboot. I always have to air my qualms about the current design style of Bard and Summoner, I'm just displeased with how they turned out.
Besides, battle content in this game is falling apart pretty significantly as of late on the whole. They have more meaningful things to do besides shaking around the status quo of classes. I'm on my third FC this year and my second static within that FC. Can't keep anyone together because there is so little content and what is there has iffy tuning or poor rewards.
I wouldn't want to see anything daunting and frivolous touched until they could:
1.) Fix alts and the clashing between the FFXI class system and the lockout/point system.
2.) Add more progression content and utilize existing assets better.
3.) Itemize progression content better (ie; 115 gear for savage) and add proper incentive where needed.
4.) Tune up encounters to be less obnoxious by doing things like nerfing combat res and fixing phase pushing.
5.) Get meaningful battle content in that isn't raiding. Something. Anything.
Kenai, I have fewer issues with Scholar, it's a good class and it's a better iteration of a shielding healer than Summoner is a DoT class. I think it's toolset is under utilized by the encounter design but that could be applied to almost every class in the game, currently. I think XIV's pet AI and micro still kind of sucks but at least it's far from the disaster it was at launch.
Unknown Soldier
Member
They will need to address the materia issue if they want more than just the 1% to progress through the Relic weapons upgrade chain.
Then again, it's possible that the design philosophy of the Zodiac weapons is entirely intentional and is inspired by Neill Blomkamp movies. If you live on Elysium, you swim in Zodiac weapons, and if you live on the ruined Earth, you don't get shit.
I think you're looking back at WoW 1.0 Warlock's with nostalgia-tinted lenses, friend.
A rotation that basically just amounted to three DoT's and spamming Shadowbolts was not engaging gameplay. Especially when dealing with a 16 debuff limit in 40 man raids. FFXIV's SMN is a lot more fleshed out between Aetherflow management, actually useful pet abilities, and more mobility thanks to Ruin 2. The summon also still comprises about 30% of our damage, whereas in WoW, the imp's damage was pretty irrelevant and was just a health buff bot.
I probably still would've gotten bored with the class until I learned I could smack enemies with my book in between casts.
I think it would've been a lot of fun though if summons were not permanent pets but temporary pets that only lasted for 15 seconds or so, that provided either damage or utility, each on a 1-2 minute cooldown. Would've greatly expanded the SMN's rotation as well. It would've reminded me a lot of the Theurgist in DAoC, which I don't think any other MMO has really replicated (ie. a caster that summoned fire and forget elementals that would expire after a short duration). I guess the closest is the Mesmer in GW2 which spawned illusions, but you didn't really control these at all. They could then leave a perma pet for a future job like Beastmaster.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Wait, the hub between Turns is NOT an instance?
It's a shared lobby.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Even in FFXI Pets were usually not kept out except for soloing circumstances. And that was because Avatars provided hate free damage, as a SMN could use a Blood Pact to deliver damage, and then dismiss the avatar and all hate it had collected would just disappear. Great for mobs you didn't want moving.
Pyros_Eien
Member
You didn't even cast the dots in 1.0 wow, or maybe immolate depending on the group setup. You just spammed shadowbolts and sometimes life tapped, and that was basically it. Which is why SM ruin was good cause it buffed shadow bolt a lot while providing defenses via the link for when you tapped yourself to low hp with the awful conversion. Pet was entirely autoattack pet, the imp didn't have any active abilities that were worth using and no one used any other pet for raiding besides maybe felhound on a specific fight maybe during naxx(though I can't remember an example so that might have been BC when hounds had a silence). Affliction was a bit more fun but completely unusable in raids due to debuff limit. Then during BC, destruction was ahead the entire expansion iirc and it was mostly shadow bolt spam too. Warlocks were pretty much awful to play until wotlk(performance was solid though, just boring class design, lots of unused stuff).
I think SMN could be improved though, but it's made decently enough. You have the various duration dots to keep ticking all the time and the aetherflow stuff. Mostly I feel the pets should have a more active role. Maybe for the expansion since I assume every class will get a few new skills and probably some reworks. It's a solid DoT+pet class, even though it's not particularily inventive so it feels a bit bland.
I think SMN could be improved though, but it's made decently enough. You have the various duration dots to keep ticking all the time and the aetherflow stuff. Mostly I feel the pets should have a more active role. Maybe for the expansion since I assume every class will get a few new skills and probably some reworks. It's a solid DoT+pet class, even though it's not particularily inventive so it feels a bit bland.
Alex
Member
Not quite, I actually hated WoW 1.0, and used to consistently whine at people with nostalgia glasses for it but no, IMO SM/Ruin was really fun, it was one of the saving graces of 1.0 for me.
It had great old school streaky/bursty/procy damage, solid use of drains, still decently involved both DoTs and pets and the encounter design better meshed with it. Plus, you could also go fire with it after AQ40, which was also a blast (and an aggro magnet!). Of course, then you had to go Demonology for Naxxramas which was terrible (at the time, I dont know about now). XIV's Summoner is, to me, probably the most iffy necromancer type I've ever played. I really dislike it and I'm glad that, for once, I had the good sense to stop playing a class I personally disliked early and avoided turning the game into a chore for myself.
For my tastes It just doesn't have anything really... fun to it, I guess? It doesn't feel at all like Summoner and it just feels like an Affliction Warlock from WoW 2.0 with no talent points spent into it. What they coulda done is went after 2.0 Shadow Priest instead and made it a parallel to Bard with it's buffs! 2.0 Shadow Priest was incredible (until they ruined it in 3.0!), way better than ol' Affliction was.
Moving on from ancient WoW nonsense, I would love to have BST though, it's probably the class I bring up the most whenever the "whatcha want next!?" question appears. I'd go nuts for that, the major thing I regret from XI is not going BST back in the day and doing a free roaming duo with it or something. Obviously it'd be a pure, party based battle class here but if they did up the pet system right they could have something special. Plus, I want their Artifact Armor. Oh, and I want a one handed axe. I like that.
I always felt a happy feeling back in the day when I'd run through Batallia or whatever and see someone farming with a Courier Carrie or something. I don't know why, just did!
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