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[WolvenOne]

If a DRG can avoid taking unnecessary damage, they're fine. Their DPS output may not be up to Monk and Ninja standards, (Hax I say,) their DPS output is still perfectly respectable non-the less. Biggest issue is that magic vulnerability means that players going DRG have less room for error, especially in Final Coil.

While I'm not there myself, (Not a Euphemism is working on it,) I've been told time and time again that a single player dying in FCOB is essentially a wipe, and that players probably won't be able to gear past this for a long while.

Again, that's fine if your DRG's can avoid taking unnecessary damage.

 

[Sorian]

T10 will be easily out geared once people are in mostly poetics gear to the point where a death here and there won't mean much.

 

[Ken]

T10 will be easily out geared once people are in mostly poetics gear to the point where a death here and there won't mean much.

That's pretty much everything, not just T10.

 

[WolvenOne]

T10 will be easily out geared once people are in mostly poetics gear to the point where a death here and there won't mean much.

Maaaaaaybe, I think T11 is the one where gear supposedly isn't going to help much, if I remember the conversation correctly. Either way, I'm not sure it's a good idea to lean too heavily on gear, so to speak. Gear can help to a certain extent, but in my experience, most fights end up being decided mostly (lets say 80%) by skill level.

Basically, I think any group is going to continue having a hard time if people are dying several times, regardless of gear.

 

[Sorian]

That's pretty much everything, not just T10.

"Weathered" poetic gear so only ilvl 120 stuff is what I'm talking about.

 

[EndcatOmega]

They're not Lucrezia or CL but Kyoko Hana (Finale) and Rylai Crestfall (DDR) still rock DRG and have downed T12 already so I think they're still fine in any group.

Yeah fair, I was more thinking of the literal world first groups when I said cutting edge. Probably not going to be long before there's a DRG with a T13 kill (or a SMN, if there isn't one already).

 

[Frumix]

Maaaaaaybe, I think T11 is the one where gear supposedly isn't going to help much, if I remember the conversation correctly. Either way, I'm not sure it's a good idea to lean too heavily on gear, so to speak. Gear can help to a certain extent, but in my experience, most fights end up being decided mostly (lets say 80%) by skill level.

Basically, I think any group is going to continue having a hard time if people are dying several times, regardless of gear.

Skill won't help you soak up the

Spoiler

Spoilerflare

 

[Sorian]

Skill won't help you soak up the Teraflare

(Manaward) (/pray)

 

[Kagari]

Maaaaaaybe, I think T11 is the one where gear supposedly isn't going to help much, if I remember the conversation correctly. Either way, I'm not sure it's a good idea to lean too heavily on gear, so to speak. Gear can help to a certain extent, but in my experience, most fights end up being decided mostly (lets say 80%) by skill level.

Basically, I think any group is going to continue having a hard time if people are dying several times, regardless of gear.

You will still need gear.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Dat blatant spoiler.

Oh! Dude sorry, I wasn't thinking, gah. Please Ken edit.

 

[Frumix]

Is that really a spoiler? I mean... I guess.

 

[WolvenOne]

Skill won't help you soak up the Teraflare

Not that far into Coil yet. If it's anything like Megaflare, than the most important thing is to get the target/targets Stone Skinned. Oh sure, more Vit definitly helps there, but if people aren't addressing the mechanic in an effective coherent manner, than an extra bit of Vit probably isn't going to help much there.

You will still need gear.

Not saying you won't, just saying that gear only helps so much with mistakes, and the debuff you get for a player dying is going to undo the benefits of a lot of that gear, when it comes to things like Group DPS checks and whatnot.

 

[Frumix]

Not that far into Coil yet. If it's anything like Megaflare, than the most important thing is to get the target/targets Stone Skinned. Oh sure, more Vit definitly helps there, but if people aren't addressing the mechanic in an effective coherent manner, than an extra bit of Vit probably isn't going to help much there.

Actually, it's

Spoiler

tank LB + neurolink, but if you don't have either 6.3k HP+ OR an LB3, you're probably grill.

 

[WolvenOne]

Actually, it's

Spoiler

tank LB + neurolink, but if you don't have either 6.3k HP+ OR an LB3, you're probably grill.

Whooooo!!! Finally, another chance for me to use LB! Haven't been this excited since Ultima HM! XD

 

[Sorian]

Not that far into Coil yet. If it's anything like Megaflare, than the most important thing is to get the target/targets Stone Skinned. Oh sure, more Vit definitly helps there, but if people aren't addressing the mechanic in an effective coherent manner, than an extra bit of Vit probably isn't going to help much there.

Lol I'd stop trying to make assumptions.

 

[Sorian]

Is that really a spoiler? I mean... I guess.

It's not even a debate of whether it's a spoiler or not. I don't care myself but yes, we shouldn't need to define what a spoiler is.

Edit: Double

 

[K.Sabot]

Easiest way to get commendations:

Use Goad.

 

[WolvenOne]

Lol I'd stop trying to make assumptions.

Not much of an assumption, similar name, similar mechanic, similar solution, (Mit mit mit.)

Obviously more Vit helps in situations like that (duh), but execution is still more important.

 

[Sorian]

Not much of an assumption, similar name, similar mechanic, similar solution, (Mit mit mit.)

Obviously more Vit helps in situations like that (duh), but execution is still more important.

Literally more vit is required for the general population. It's not "helpful" it's actually needed.

Also no, you'd sound more knowledgable about the subject if you said it was a similar mechanic to Twin's attack that you have to jump into neurolink for. This isn't a simple SS/Adlo and move on with your day.

 

[Frumix]

To be honest,

Spoiler

standing in neurolink isn't that much of a difference logically, especially since this one is xboxhueg. But man, that mechanic rehash.

 

[WolvenOne]

Literally more vit is required for the general population. It's not "helpful" it's actually needed.

Also no, you'd sound more knowledgable about the subject if you said it was a similar mechanic to Twin's attack that you have to jump into neurolink for. This isn't a simple SS/Adlo and move on with your day.

Aaaaaand Vit is going to help if people don't execute, nobody gets into the proper position, and nobody hits the Tank LB? Yes, Vit helps with these sorts of mechanics, but execution trumps stats.

Or, to make it simpler for you.

Execution >> Coordination >--------->---------> Gear.

 

[Frumix]

Aaaaaand Vit is going to help if people don't execute, nobody gets into the proper position, and nobody hits the Tank LB? Yes, Vit helps with these sorts of mechanics, but execution trumps stats.

Or, to make it simpler for you.

Execution >> Coordination >--------->---------> Gear.

Well no. You said the fight is decided 80% by skill level. But gear checks exist, you can't just outskill an encounter that dishes out massive damage every five seconds and has the strictest time limit. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you aren't in i120+ or pentamelded, you'll fail. So that's not 80% skill is it?

We're talking about a situation in which players are competent I suppose, not "well you can just overgear this fight now" situation.

 

[Sorian]

Aaaaaand Vit is going to help if people don't execute, nobody gets into the proper position, and nobody hits the Tank LB? Yes, Vit helps with these sorts of mechanics, but execution trumps stats.

Or, to make it simpler for you.

Execution >> Coordination >--------->---------> Gear.

This is why you run into issues. You don't listen when people talk to you. The point is if we dumped your group in there right now and everyone executed perfectly, you'd still wipe.

 

[Mairu]

To be honest,

Spoiler

standing in neurolink isn't that much of a difference logically, especially since this one is xboxhueg. But man, that mechanic rehash.

almost that entire fight (almost the entire final coil) is mechanic rehash

 

[Kagari]

almost that entire fight (almost the entire final coil) is mechanic rehash

I heard you like:
Tethers
Electric Floor
AOE Floor
Thunderstruck
Gravity Ball
Repelling Cannons
TURN 2 DISCO BALL
Gaseous Bomb
Missiles
etc.
etc.
Divebombs.

 

[WolvenOne]

Well no. You said the fight is decided 80% by skill level. But gear checks exist, you can't just outskill an encounter that dishes out massive damage every five seconds and has the strictest time limit. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you aren't in i120+ or pentamelded, you'll fail. So that's not 80% skill is it?

We're talking about a situation in which players are competent I suppose, not "well you can just overgear this fight now" situation.

Even with Pentamelding, the world first groups just baaaaaarely squeaked by from what I've heard. Yeah, the gear undoubtedly helps, but you need to be able to execute and take advantage of the gear.

Besides, getting back to the original debate. If people are dying, they're going to spend the next minute of the fight with a 15% reduction in all stats. During hard gear checks, that's pretty darn devastating. Also, it kinda renders any stat improvements from better gear, largely moot.

This is why you run into issues. You don't listen when people talk to you. The point is if we dumped your group in there right now and everyone executed perfectly, you'd still wipe.

Weren't you saying something earlier about making assumptions? Also, which turn? Cause people have cleared T10 with uncrafted 110 gear. Turn 13, yeah that'd smash us, no argument there. Though by ilvl116-118 uncrafted, a group with perfect coordination and perfect execution could probably pull T13 off.

 

[Frumix]

I heard you like:

Don't forget obligatory phase transition nukes that every large boss loves to spam
Granted, final boss of final coil's got a really cool one! The money really shows in that special effect!

 

[Mairu]

I heard you like:
Tethers
Electric Floor
AOE Floor
Thunderstruck
Gravity Ball
Repelling Cannons
TURN 2 DISCO BALL
Gaseous Bomb
Missiles
etc.
etc.
Divebombs.

It's honestly extremely disappointing given the low amount of encounters in coil overall :/

 

[Ken]

"Weathered" poetic gear so only ilvl 120 stuff is what I'm talking about.

Isn't full i120 comparable to full pentameld i110 assuming there isn't a huge disparity in secondary stats?

Yeah fair, I was more thinking of the literal world first groups when I said cutting edge. Probably not going to be long before there's a DRG with a T13 kill (or a SMN, if there isn't one already).

Well, I think if either of those groups swapped a MNK for a DRG they'd be fine since most of their first kills had a death or disconnect.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

Not much of an assumption, similar name, similar mechanic, similar solution, (Mit mit mit.)

Obviously more Vit helps in situations like that (duh), but execution is still more important.

Might want to look more closely at the fight before trying to assume how the mechanics work or even get halfway close to said fight. You don't have time to stoneskin before terraflare goes off because of the dmg still going out on people due to the adds that are still alive and in the process of dying as the attack is channeling. Execution means next to nothing when you are required to have a minimum health pool to survive the attack with defensive abilities going, not only that but you need it for multiple other mechanics in the fight.

None of this matters because no one in our fc will even see the fight until they have the gear/health to survive the mechanics without resorting to melding accessories. Beyond that the fight is not as "easy" to understand as it seems just because mechanics look the same or do the same thing. It's how you are able to handle them that changes and makes them different than the simple versions from fights before.

 

[Sorian]

I heard you like:
Divebombs.

I get the feeling these are never going away.

Edit:

Man, it feels like talking to a rock.

Isn't full i120 comparable to full pentameld i110 assuming there isn't a huge disparity in secondary stats?

It's my understanding that fully melded i110 feels higher than 120? I don't really know for sure on that one though.

 

[scy]

If a DRG can avoid taking unnecessary damage, they're fine. Their DPS output may not be up to Monk and Ninja standards, (Hax I say,) their DPS output is still perfectly respectable non-the less. Biggest issue is that magic vulnerability means that players going DRG have less room for error, especially in Final Coil.

The avoidable damage in T10 will lead to dead people regardless of class. The unavoidable damage will be severe but not OHKO level so the reaction healing wise is the same. DRGs Magic Defense is pretty much irrelevant for T10 and T11 as everything you'll die to will be due to failing the mechanic in general and not because of their magic defense.

Basically, it's super binary: You survive and are healed up or you didn't survive. The latter occurs because you failed a mechanic, not because of your class.

It's my understanding that fully melded i110 feels higher than 120? I don't really know for sure on that one though.

My i120 Gloves are 27 INT, 29 VIT, 27 Accuracy, 13 Det. i110 Pentamelded are 24 INT, 25 VIT, 25 Accuracy, 25 Crit, 18 Det. Offensively, it's basically 3 INT, 2 Accuracy vs 25 Crit, 5 Det. My stat weights are such that ~1 INT roughly equals 5 Crit or Det so conservative numbers put my i110 gloves > i120 by roughly the equivalent of 2 INT. It's not like the Accuracy puts me at a new breakpoint (I'd still swap for T12 vs T10/T11 accuracy) and I survive "just enough" at my current VIT where 4 more isn't going to help.

 

[Ken]

It's my understanding that fully melded i110 feels higher than 120? I don't really know for sure on that one though.

I don't know maths so it seems we are at a draw!

 

[Sorian]

I don't know maths so it seems we are at a draw!

Scy has our backs.

 

[iammeiam]

So first coil had one dragon doing divebombs.

Second coil had three dragons (I think?)!doing divebombs.

Does third coil have nine dragons doing divebombs?

 

[WolvenOne]

Might want to look more closely at the fight before trying to assume how the mechanics work or even get halfway close to said fight. You don't have time to stoneskin before terraflare goes off because of the dmg still going out on people due to the adds that are still alive and in the process of dying as the attack is channeling. Execution means next to nothing when you are required to have a minimum health pool to survive the attack with defensive abilities going, not only that but you need it for multiple other mechanics in the fight.

None of this matters because no one in our fc will even see the fight until they have the gear/health to survive the mechanics without resorting to melding accessories. Beyond that the fight is not as "easy" to understand as it seems just because mechanics look the same or do the same thing. It's how you are able to handle them that changes and makes them different than the simple versions from fights before.

I outright said I wasn't that far, how is that making an assumption?

I cited Megaflare, because it's often stated to be a mechanic that cannot be survived if your HP isn't above X point. However, people have survived that mechanic with less than that oft-cited point, through intelligent use of mitigation. I certainly wouldn't recommend doing it with less, but it's an instance in which skill can trump over numbers.

Also, at this point I was mostly referring to Turns 10 and 11. Though the same holds true everywhere, (skill trumps good armor,) at this point it's largely unthinkable that a group would make it to T13, without either having pentamelded armor, or a sufficient combination of ilvl120 and 130 pieces to make it work.

Ultimately, what I'm getting to is that, while you can make these fights easier with gear, people aren't going to be, "gearing past them," anytime soon.

 

[Frumix]

So first coil had one dragon doing divebombs.

Second coil had three dragons (I think?)!doing divebombs.

Does third coil have nine dragons doing divebombs?

Spoiler

Two. Bahamut and Not-Twintania.

 

[Kagari]

Honestly... you really need to experience T10-11 first.

 

[iammeiam]

Spoiler

Two. Bahamut and Not-Twintania.

I am both confused and disappointed right now.

 

[Sorian]

Honestly... you really need to experience T10-11 first.

I figure it's safe to say I can stroll into both on ilvl 100 and use my slick skillz to solo it.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

Isn't full i120 comparable to full pentameld i110 assuming there isn't a huge disparity in secondary stats?

Yes. In most cases i110 melded is equivalent to i120 and in some cases better. I believe the stat caps are the same. This was the same for the i90 crafted gear in comparison to the i100. With the crafted gear you gain some flexibility.

 

[Frumix]

I am both confused and disappointed right now.

It's okay, there's a lot to do for a dragon lover such as yourself.

 

[WolvenOne]

I figure it's safe to say I can stroll into both on ilvl 100 and use my slick skillz to solo it.

Sarcasm detector, going crazy! Must, counter, with, blase indifference, and Shatner speak!

 

[Sorian]

Sarcasm detector, going crazy! Must, counter, with, blase indifference, and Shatner speak!

The sarcasm increases the closer we get to something stupid like how much fracture increases your dps.

 

[Kagari]

Hey Kagari, can you advise the control method / settings to ensure you are strafing as BRD and hitting your auto-attacks while moving, without camera locked in on boss. Watching our fight over again, I see our BRD is missing a lot of auto attacks with movement as he's facing away from boss when moving any time.

He's keyboard and mouse.

EDIT - I can't advise as I don't play BRD or use kb/mouse.

Lock-on helps a ton and if that's an issue, try strafing with left/right. That and usually I am able to reuse my opener at multiple points in the fight so DPS can get a big boost when needed. The key is to not always use CDs when they come back up.

 

[WolvenOne]

The sarcasm increases the closer we get to something stupid like how much fracture increases your dps.

Fracture does increase DPS, for Warriors. #truthfact

 

[Valor]

The avoidable damage in T10 will lead to dead people regardless of class. The unavoidable damage will be severe but not OHKO level so the reaction healing wise is the same. DRGs Magic Defense is pretty much irrelevant for T10 and T11 as everything you'll die to will be due to failing the mechanic in general and not because of their magic defense.

People make the DRG Magic Defense out to be a bigger hinderance than it really is, just like you said. You either live or you die. The amount of damage a DRG would take is partially mitigated by their health and mostly mitigated by the healers. Even as a BRD with those incredibly superior defensive numbers I can get one or two shot by screwing up mechanics in T10. Like Ken said, there are DRG who have cleared T12. Shit's not impossible. Not even remotely.

Also, at this point I was mostly referring to Turns 10 and 11. Though the same holds true everywhere, (skill trumps good armor,)

Except, as people have tried to point out, where you are required to have x amount of health to survive mechanics. Just because there is a similar mechanic in an earlier turn you can barely skirt around with Weakness doesn't mean the same will hold true for the FCOB mechanics. That's where you're making the assumption. You are assuming because you can cheese Megaflare on 9 that you can do the same later on in Final Coil where that's simply not the case because the two attacks are not the same.

Gear checks are a thing. Ask anyone who tried to do Titan HM with sub 3.2k health. You can do it now with way overgeared healers, but back in the day when that was one of the more difficult pieces of content, there was no way you were going to survive with less than that health. Even if you could, in theory, skate by with 3000 health, the amount of work the healers would have to do to keep you alive is more trouble than getting the right gear and health number. Juice versus squeeze.

I figure it's safe to say I can stroll into both on ilvl 100 and use my slick skillz to solo it.

This is how I approach every fight. If we don't count the amount of times I've wiped, I'm at a 100% success rate.

 

[Sorian]

This is how I approach every fight. If we don't count the amount of times I've wiped, I'm at a 100% success rate.

My man.

Also, going back to the DRG Magic defense thing. I find that only gets brought up when someone is trying to excuse a bad player in the DRG role.

 

[WolvenOne]

Except, as people have tried to point out, where you are required to have x amount of health to survive mechanics. Just because there is a similar mechanic in an earlier turn you can barely skirt around with Weakness doesn't mean the same will hold true for the FCOB mechanics. That's where you're making the assumption. You are assuming because you can cheese Megaflare on 9 that you can do the same later on in Final Coil where that's simply not the case because the two attacks are not the same.

Gear checks are a thing. Ask anyone who tried to do Titan HM with sub 3.2k health. You can do it now with way overgeared healers, but back in the day when that was one of the more difficult pieces of content, there was no way you were going to survive with less than that health. Even if you could, in theory, skate by with 3000 health, the amount of work the healers would have to do to keep you alive is more trouble than getting the right gear and health number. Juice versus squeeze.

This is how I approach every fight. If we don't count the amount of times I've wiped, I'm at a 100% success rate.

I never said gear checks aren't a thing. (Not sure why everyone is acting like I have.)

When starting this conversation, I was referring to the first few turns of FCOB, for which 110 armor and 115 weapons, should be sufficient, with proper execution, especially once people have one or two pieces of Poetry gear. Once you hit the minimum needed in terms of gear though, it's entirely a matter of execution, better gear can ease the requirements of that execution, but it's still on the player to perform at that point.

Frumix brought up T13, which I stated I knew nothing about. The context made it clear he was talking about a Vit/Mit check, so I talked about the most recent check of that type I've seen. I made it fairly clear that I was not talking about T13, by specifically stating, "Megaflare," not "Terraflare."

Now, please, tell me where I'm wrong exactly?

Am I wrong that players need to be able to execute once they're meeting the gear checks? That FCOB isn't terribly recoverable? That less than BIS gear can be compensated for with proper coordination and execution?

Please, tell me, because I'm so curious as to which one of my statements is so blasted controversial this time. 9_9

 

[Ken]

My man.

Also, going back to the DRG Magic defense thing. I find that only gets brought up when someone is trying to excuse a bad player in the DRG role.

Oh snap.