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[Pagusas]

I'm getting really worried about the dragons now that theres only 12 episodes left

please don't kill any of them

You know at least 2 will die before the end, 3 is a 50/50 chance. Hell they havnt spent any time developing any of the dragons except for the big one, so expect the other 2 to die.

 

[Robdraggoo]

I think Varys knows. He's still got spies and connections.

For the good of the realm, maybe his whole plan is bringing her to Westeros for that and that alone.

I dont think varys or any others have spies North of the wall.

The only way anyone knows what goes on North of the wall are from the watch. And to the citizens of westeros the night's watch is:

A penal Colony to send criminals (rapers and thieves)
Unwanted sons (Poor sam)

To quote Jon snow
"Everyone knew what this place was and didnt tell me"

Nobody cares what happens up there or to the people in the watch

 

[The Artisan]

We're having a discussion about the events that have happened in the show, and why said characters did them, besides "they're just evil".

Not really. We've pretty much just had a discussion surrounding Cersei.

You kept bringing up how Cersei was evil because she put Joffrey into power, someone who wasn't the rightful heir, this was something you brought up multiple times.

When it was suitable for the points I made, of course.

Like this was one of the evil things Cersei did.

It was because she knew that he was a monster, knew he wasn't a true heir,
and she did it to stay in power. She loved power more than anything

Then you brought up Margaery and asked why she deserved to die,

I brought up Margery, and Loras, and Mace, and the bystanders. I didn't bring up Margery solely, and I didn't bring her up just to compare her to Cersei.

completely ignoring that she backed Renly, someone who wasn't the rightful heir, would've gone to war and caused the deaths of thousands of people, then when Renly died, she teamed up with yet another "unrightful heir" to try and kill the rightful one, in the purpose murdering thousands of his people. She has caused many death just because she wanted power.

It's war. People take sides in wars. That you can attitribute to doing what needs to be done to survive. Margery wanted power, but she was not bloodthirsty like Cersei is. Joffrey being not being a rightful heir isn't the main problem with Cersei putting him on the throne, it's the fact that she did so knowing he is a monster and knowing that's how she would stay in power. She ruined lives to stay in power and she felt GOOD about it.

No, she doesn't love power more than she loves her children.

Yes she does. She knew Tommen cared for Margery and she killed her, and she cared little for when she saw Tommen's death.

From season one it was hammered into us that, above all else, Cersei loved her children and would do anything for them, which ended up causing her to do a lot of the shit she has done since then, because she loves her children so much. This point is even illustrated in the last episode, because she has become "the man queen" once her children died, so much so that she even said Tommen betrayed her, something that we would've never heard from season 1 Cersei since she loved her children above all else.

That dialogue in season 7 has shown me that Cersei truly did NOT love her children more than she loved power. That pretty much confirmed it for me, actually.

 

[Volimar]

That dialogue in season 7 has shown me that Cersei truly did NOT love her children more than she loved power. That pretty much confirmed it for me, actually.

I took it more as her refusing to deal with her grief and choosing instead to embrace her hatred and make all of her perceived enemies suffer.

 

[Sephzilla]

That dialogue in season 7 has shown me that Cersei truly did NOT love her children more than she loved power. That pretty much confirmed it for me, actually.

It's also possible that maybe she's still in the stages of grief and is in the "anger" phase. It was established in the past that she does love her children more than anything or anyone else and she was shook as hell when Joffrey died. She could be reacting differently to burying a second child while simultaneously taking on the burden of the crown

 

[CountAntonius]

Sansa is really channeling early Cersei now.

 

[WriterGK]

Yeah, I don't get where people think she was anything good. Margaery was a massive opportunist who only cared about the crown. She just never was put in a position where she had to kill someone. Almost everything we saw of her character gave a strong impression that she would go full Cersei if she had the power to

That's just not true. During the Sparrows and such time she scarificed herself for her brother Loras. And unlike Cersei she actually liked Tommen.

 

[y2dvd]

How are we on Jaime possibly killing Cersei? Dude loves her.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

That dialogue in season 7 has shown me that Cersei truly did NOT love her children more than she loved power. That pretty much confirmed it for me, actually.

Disagreed. She tried desperately to fight against the prophecy, and failed. At this point, she's just leaning into what she knows best: power and revenge.

How are we on Jaime possibly killing Cersei? Dude loves her.

She is the Mad Queen, and did exactly what Rhaegar threatened to do, which is what led to Jaime killing him. Love can only get you so far, especially when the person you loved changes.

 

[Zolo]

That's just not true. During the Sparrows and such time she scarificed herself for her brother Loras. And unlike Cersei she actually liked Tommen.

Eh. That's family. I'm talking more people that they aren't really connected with.

 

[aBarreras]

How are we on Jaime possibly killing Cersei? Dude loves her.

is a book related spoiler

 

[darkstar0155]

How are we on Jaime possibly killing Cersei? Dude loves her.

Obiwan loved Anikan I think that would be a fitting way for her to die actually.

 

[Einchy]

Not really. We've pretty much just had a discussion surrounding Cersei.

When it was suitable for the points I made, of course. It was because she knew that he was a monster, knew he wasn't a true heir,
and she did it to stay in power. She loved power more than anythingI brought up Margery, and Loras, and Mace, and the bystanders. I didn't bring up Margery solely, and I didn't bring her up just to compare her to Cersei. It's war. People take sides in wars. That you can attitribute to doing what needs to be done to survive. Margery wanted power, but she was not bloodthirsty like Cersei is. Joffrey being not being a rightful heir isn't the main problem with Cersei putting him on the throne, it's the fact that she did so knowing he is a monster and knowing that's how she would stay in power. She ruined lives to stay in power and she felt GOOD about it.
Yes she does. She knew Tommen cared for Margery and she killed her, and she cared little for when she saw Tommen's death.That dialogue in season 7 has shown me that Cersei truly did NOT love her children more than she loved power. That pretty much confirmed it for me, actually.

You keep saying she "put" Joffrey in power, and because he was evil, then she is evil by proxy. The only reason Joffrey was "put" there is because she had to kill Robert so Robert wouldn't kill them. Again, she protected her children above all else, it just happened that Joffrey was the oldest. She also knew he was a shit, but she loved him because he was her child, it's not like she liked the evil shit he did, she actually tried to stop a lot of. And a good bit of it actually disturbed her, with the killing of the babies being one of the times that is disturbed her the most. She tried to control him, but he wouldn't have it, he tried to stop him from killing Ned, she tried to just make him stop being so goddamn shitty, but she failed. Making Joffrey the king wasn't a powerplay, it was self preservation.

So, all the innocent people that Margery caused to die because she wanted power, no, she wanted THE power, is okay because it's a war. Almost like it just fell on her lap and not something she searched out for pure greed. But when Cersei kills to save her children, and just to save her children, she is awful. This is exactly why I'm comparing her actions to that of Margery and other characters, because people misunderstand what is causing Cersei to do a lot of what she does. They just chuck it up to "because she's evil".

I took it more as her refusing to deal with her grief and choosing instead to embrace her hatred and make all of her perceived enemies suffer.

Exactly, that's a terrible reading of that scene. That scene is to reinforce her change and not to remind of us who she isn't, because she wasn't that.

 

[WriterGK]

Eh. That's family. I'm talking more people that they aren't really connected with.

She was genuinenly shocked about the death of Joffrey. And she gave food to the poor. She also became more religious and actually listened to the High Sparrow. And she is one of the few people who never actually killed someone with her own bare hands.

 

[The Artisan]

-I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. It's not about who'll be the better Queen, I was saying that starting another war, especially in Westoros' current state, is far more destructive and will lead to a far bigger civilian body count than Cersei's Sept bombing. Tyrion suggests that by staying in Essos she could do more good than conquering Westeros and she simply responds with "It's my home". It's just a funny feat of mental gymnastics to call someone evil for letting 50-100 people die to ensure her survival and position of influence, but sacrificing orders of magnitude more than that to conquer another Kingdom, the one you really want, is fine. Either they're both evil, or, engaged in a 'game' where immorality is required. I subscribe to the latter.

First off, Dany doesn't know all that much about the chaos that has happened in Westeros in her absense, second of all a war would end in casualties on both sides but Cersei's terrorist act wasn't one of war, there was no literal war taking place right there in the city of king's landing, it was just her killing people to stay in power. Cersei is evil, Dany is not. Maybe it's best we agree to disagree.

-So killing is ok as long as the person falls on your personal evil scale?

YES. It was satisfying as fuck to see Ramsey die. It was satisfying as fuck to see Walder Frey die. It was satisfying as fuck to see Carl Tanner die. And I'm pretty sure it's not my personal evil scale, but a general conensus

The Tyrells were playing the Game and they lost. Period. They killed Joffrey,

Just putting it out there that I don't buy into this "game" shit and take everything that Cersei says as gospel because not everyone in the story is as power hungry as she is. Also, Joffrey deserved to fucking die.

they manipulated and used Tommen,

and how exactly was Tommen better off with his mother as an influence instead? What evidence is there to prove that the Tyrells in power would be bad for the realm?

they tried to steal 'the key to the North' Sansa away from the Lannisters,

Sansa WANTED to get away from the Lannisters, so that "stealing" is justified to me since it would've been consensual and moreover, what family clan was the one that ended up "stealing" Sansa anyway? The fucking Lannisters, who continued to ruin her life at the expense of keeping themselves in power.

and while Cersei originally empowered the High Sparrow, Margaery manipulated the situation so the Faith Militant were granted royal authority which
of course led to Jaime's dismissal from the King's Guard and Cersei being tried under ancient Sept law. No, these acts aren't evil, but they show how the Tyrells were actively plotting against the Lannisters and their interests. Again, this is the 'Great Game' and the stakes involved are clear.

The Lannisters' interests are only self interests, not concerning the welfare of anyone else and Cersei was the one who brought them into power like you said, she would not have had to deal with the faith militant if she would've just got over the fact that her son is married now and she's just losing power. She couldn't stand that.

-Cersei didn't bring Joffrey into power to revel in her psychopathic son's reign of terror, she did it to save her self and her family. Not just their lives but their position as a great house. Joffrey just happened to be first in line after Robert.

I do not believe that at all. Cersei put Joffrey in power so that she herself would continue to have power.

And yes,she did show regret and remorse about the way Joffrey turned out. - 3:45

She knew the monster that Joffrey was, yet instrumented his spot on the Iron Throne.

 

[The Artisan]

I took it more as her refusing to deal with her grief and choosing instead to embrace her hatred and make all of her perceived enemies suffer.

Yeah, that's a valid interpretation.

It's also possible that maybe she's still in the stages of grief and is in the "anger" phase. It was established in the past that she does love her children more than anything or anyone else and she was shook as hell when Joffrey died. She could be reacting differently to burying a second child while simultaneously taking on the burden of the crown

Also a valid interpretation, but I'm still going by mine.

Disagreed. She tried desperately to fight against the prophecy, and failed. At this point, she's just leaning into what she knows best: power and revenge.

That's ALL she fucking knows.

You keep saying she "put" Joffrey in power, and because he was evil, then she is evil by proxy. The only reason Joffrey was "put" there is because she had to kill Robert so Robert wouldn't kill them.

That wasn't the only reason. She also did it to stay in power because if everybody knew the truth, then she would lose all power.

Again, she protected her children above all else, it just happened that Joffrey was the oldest. She also knew he was a shit, but she loved him because he was her child, it's not like she liked the evil shit he did, she actually tried to stop a lot of. And a good bit of it actually disturbed her, with the killing of the babies being one of the times that is disturbed her the most. She tried to control him, but he wouldn't have it, he tried to stop him from killing Ned, she tried to just make him stop being so goddamn shitty, but she failed. Making Joffrey the king wasn't a powerplay, it was self preservation.

Ned offered her peaceful leave, she chose to continue living by the lie and staying in power so no, it wasn't about protecting her kids.

So, all the innocent people that Margery caused to die because she wanted power, no, she wanted THE power, is okay because it's a war. Almost like it just fell on her lap and not something she searched out for pure greed. But when Cersei kills to save her children, and just to save her children, she is awful. This is exactly why I'm comparing her actions to that of Margery and other characters, because people misunderstand what is causing Cersei to do a lot of what she does. They just chuck it up to "because she's evil"

What innocent people did Margery cause to die? Cersei doesn't kill to save her children, she kills to stay in power. She is fucking evil. I can repeat that all day

edit: sorry for double post

 

[Goodstyle]

I took it more as her refusing to deal with her grief and choosing instead to embrace her hatred and make all of her perceived enemies suffer.

This is the correct take. She's hollowed out and completely grief stricken at this point. Her arc throughout the series has been about a descent into true darkness. The idea that she never cared about her children is a rejection of what the show has been hammering into us when it comes to her and the creators along with Lena Headey's take on the character as well.

 

[aBarreras]

i cant believe you are still arguing if cersei or margeary are evil or something, both were characters that would do anything to reach their goasl, it just happens that Cersei is more talented at it.

i woulndt call margeary EVIL, but she wasnt certainly good either

 

[The Artisan]

i cant believe you are still arguing if cersei or margeary are evil or something, both were characters that would do anything to reach their goasl, it just happens that Cersei is more talented at it.

i woulndt call margeary EVIL, but she wasnt certainly good either

bolded is the only part I don't agree with it. Margery wouldn't and didn't kill or torture or ruin people's lives to stay in power.

 

[Sephzilla]

bolded is the only part I don't agree with it. Margery wouldn't and didn't kill or torture or ruin people's lives to stay in power.

She'd just emotionally manipulate them to get what she wants.

I still maintain that Margery would have killed if she had the ability to do so and get away with it, which we don't know because she was never put in that kind of situation. She was basically a more powerless Cersei

 

[aBarreras]

bolded is the only part I don't agree with it. Margery wouldn't and didn't kill or torture or ruin people's lives to stay in power.

she never had the chance, so we will never know

 

[Einchy]

The Artisan, I honestly feel you have a massive misunderstanding of Cersei as a character if you honestly think she cares more about power than her children. This is one of the main points that have been drilled into the audience's head over and over and over. Like, I honestly have no idea how this is even a thing you're willing to dispute, and because you have this misunderstanding, you think every act of Cersei protecting her children is not actually her giving a shit about them, but just her wanting power.

You think she thought she would be fine when Robert found out about Joffrey and the rest, and that the only reason she killed Robert was not to save their lives, but to put Joffrey in power. Pretty much all the Targaryens were murdered off, and he still kept trying to kill Dany in Essos, even though she didn't do shit to him, but you honestly think she thought she would be fine with Robert coming after her? That's preposterous, there's no scenario there where Ned would've realistically being able to protect them.

And what innocents? All the people in Blackwater that died, all the people that war causes to die, I mean, you shrugged that away with "it's war", yeah, tell that to all the people who are now dead because Margery wanted to be the queen.

 

[Sande]

So now we're judging people based on what they might've done under different circumstances?

 

[The Artisan]

She'd just emotionally manipulate them to get what she wants.

I still maintain that Margery would have killed if she had the ability to do so and get away with it, which we don't know because she was never put in that kind of situation. She was basically a more powerless Cersei

she never had the chance, so we will never know

since we are talking about the unknown though, your guesses are as good as mine. With that being said, I don't think Margery would've ever harmed innocent people.

@sephzilla, whatever emotional manipulation Margery was doing to Tommen, I don't think it was worse than whatever influence Cersei was on Tommen.

The Artisan, I honestly feel you have a massive misunderstanding of Cersei as a character if you honestly think she cares more about power than her children. This is one of the main points that have been drilled into the audience's head over and over and over. Like, I honestly have no idea how this is even a thing you're willing to dispute, and because you have this misunderstanding, you think every act of Cersei protecting her children is not actually her giving a shit about them, but just her wanting power.

You think she thought she would be fine when Robert found out about Joffrey and the rest, and that the only reason she killed Robert was not to save their lives, but to put Joffrey in power. Pretty much all the Targaryens were murdered off, and he still kept trying to kill Dany in Essos, even though she didn't do shit to him, but you honestly think she thought she would be fine with Robert coming after her? That's preposterous, there's no scenario there where Ned would've realistically being able to protect them.

Einchy, based off of everything you said starting from "I'm not saying Cersei isn't evil, I'm saying if you're gonna call her evil, call the rest of them evil" to all the defensive arguments you've had for her, it seems to me you just like this character a lot. When I first started watching show I was absolutely convinced that she loved her children more than anything but as time went on I began believing that she loved power more than them. I also went on record to say I don't think she is a shallow/1 dimensional character, and the the actress has done a great job, but she is fucking evil through and through. Other posters have tried arguing with you and it looks like they grew tired of it. We're not going to agree on this, are we?

And what innocents? All the people in Blackwater that died, all the people that war causes to die, I mean, you shrugged that away with "it's war", yeah, tell that to all the people who are now dead because Margery wanted to be the queen.

That was the WHOLE Tyrell army collaborating with the Lannisters, you're going to say all of that decision making came down simply to what Margery wanted?

 

[Volimar]

So now we're judging people based on what they might've done under different circumstances?

It's a shame we never got to see just how evil Ned truly was.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, it doesn't actually *matter* whether Cersei is a good person. That was kind of Sansa's point. Being a good person gets your head chopped off.

 

[More_Badass]

The Artisan, I honestly feel you have a massive misunderstanding of Cersei as a character if you honestly think she cares more about power than her children. This is one of the main points that have been drilled into the audience's head over and over and over. Like, I honestly have no idea how this is even a thing you're willing to dispute, and because you have this misunderstanding, you think every act of Cersei protecting her children is not actually her giving a shit about them, but just her wanting power.

Cersei cares about her family in the same way that Walter White did what he did for his family. Sure, it's a easy justifcation to make your actions seem rational and maybe even what was intially motivated her actions, but the truth is that she values power over all

Like Cersei clearly thought she would be able to rule through and control Joffrey, which is why the show made a big point numerous times to show that she couldnt control him like she thought she could. Tommen became just a pawn for her to use in the last seasons.

 

[aBarreras]

still, margeary is more waifu material than cersei

 

[The Artisan]

Cersei cares about her family in the same way that Walter White did what he did for his family. Sure, it's a easy justifcation to make your actions seem rational and maybe even what was intially motivated her actions, but the truth is that she values power over all

Like Cersei clearly thought she would be able to rule through and control Joffrey, which is why the show made a big point numerous times to show that she couldnt control him like she thought she could. Tommen became just a pawn for her to use in the last seasons.

Great analogy there. Man, back when I was watching BB I rooted for Walt for the longest time because I kept telling myself and he kept telling everyone it was for the family, but later I came to the conclusion that he enjoys power. Not the money making business, not the blue sky making business, but the empire business.

 

[Sande]

The Artisan, I honestly feel you have a massive misunderstanding of Cersei as a character if you honestly think she cares more about power than her children. This is one of the main points that have been drilled into the audience's head over and over and over. Like, I honestly have no idea how this is even a thing you're willing to dispute, and because you have this misunderstanding, you think every act of Cersei protecting her children is not actually her giving a shit about them, but just her wanting power.

It's something she keeps telling herself. It seemed very much true until her treatment of Tommen after Myrcella's death. Either she was too far gone after losing Joffrey, Tywin and Myrcella in a quick succession or finally showed where her priorities truly lied all along. I'm guessing the former. But in either case it's not some undeniable fact. Everyone should make their interpretation based on her actions, not her words.

And what innocents? All the people in Blackwater that died, all the people that war causes to die, I mean, you shrugged that away with "it's war", yeah, tell that to all the people who are now dead because Margery wanted to be the queen.

The Battle of Blackwater (or the War of Five Kings for that matter) definitely did not happen because Margaery wanted to be the queen. It happened because a bastard Lannister was sitting on the throne (whose doing was that anyway hmm?) and the rightful heir wasn't too fond of that.

 

[Einchy]

We're not going to agree on this, are we?

That was the WHOLE Tyrell army collaborating with the Lannisters, you're going to say all of that decision making came down simply to what Margery wanted?

As long as you keep thinking that Cersei doesn't love her children like she loves power, then no, I don't think so.

You take all agency away from Margery if you say the whole Tyrell army agreed for her to want to become the queen and team up with the lannisters to achieve that goal. It's what she wanted and she didn't care how many people died in how many wars, just as long as she got to be the queen.

Cersei cares about her family in the same way that Walter White did what he did for his family. Sure, it's a easy justifcation to make your actions seem rational and maybe even what was intially motivated her actions, but the truth is that she values power over all

Like Cersei clearly thought she would be able to rule through and control Joffrey, which is why the show made a big point numerous times to show that she couldnt control him like she thought she could. Tommen became just a pawn for her to use in the last seasons.

The main difference is that Walter had an out early on, so he wasn't just doing it for his family, and we knew that, because he would've accepted his ex paying for the treatment.

Cersei has never had an out, at every turn someone is there coming after her and her children, be it to murder them or to manipulate her children and make them Tyrell puppets. She couldn't just stop like Water could've.

 

[Zolo]

still, margeary is more waifu material than cersei

She didn't cover for my character in Telltale's Game of Thrones. She can go die in a Sept explosion!

 

[Volimar]

still, margeary is more waifu material than cersei

This is true.

 

[The Artisan]

As long as you keep thinking that Cersei doesn't love her children like she loves power, then no, I don't think so.

then we might have to just move on. you love this show, i love this show, we could just think of something else to talk about.

You take all agency away from Margery if you say the whole Tyrell army agreed for her to want to become the queen and team up with the lannisters to achieve that goal. It's what she wanted and she didn't care how many people died in how many wars, just as long as she got to be the queen.

You're supporting, defending, and rationalizing all of Cersei's actions. And I find that really strange.


You're again saying that the whole ending of the battle of blackwater happened just because of Margery. If you think she's evil, then if she wasn't evil, what would you expect her to do?

The main difference is that Walter had an out early on, so he wasn't just doing it for his family, and we knew that, because he would've accepted his ex paying for the treatment.

Cersei has never had an out, at every turn someone is there coming after her and her children, be it to murder them or to manipulate her children and make them Tyrell puppets. She couldn't just stop like Water could've.

The main similarity though, is these characters saying one thing but actions implying another thing.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Holy shit, we comparing cersei to Walter white now?

This thread is completely off the.......


Well, I can see it actually

 

[Holiday]

A motivation is not a justification. Cersei is evil. Her having motivations for her evil actions does not change that.

Also, anyone who happily employs the Mountain, one of the most evil and despicable characters in the show, is probably evil as well.

 

[Sande]

I can tell you that the war would've gone more or less the same regardless of what Margaery wanted. Maybe Renly wouldn't have defied his brother if the Tyrell's hadn't supported him. That's about it.

The Tyrell's could have also sided with Stannis instead of the Lannisters, but that's not going to prevent the bloodshed. Joffrey's and Cersei's actions caused a war. There were going to be tens of thousands of casualties no matter what.

 

[OrionX]

It was pretty amusing listening to Cersei talk about her enemies in the last episode.

~Reality vs. Cersei Vision~

Tommen gets swayed by a religious zealot she helped create --> Tommen betrayed me
Joffrey torments Sansa relentlessly, Sansa runs away --> Sansa's a "murdering whore"
Blows up Olenna Tyrell's entire family --> Olenna's a traitorous "old cunt"
Tyrion was born --> Evil little murdering imp is he dead yet

 

[Sephzilla]

It was pretty amusing listening to Cersei talk about her enemies in the last episode.

~Reality vs. Cersei Vision~

Tommen gets swayed by a religious zealot she helped create --> Tommen betrayed me
Joffrey torments Sansa relentlessly, Sansa runs away --> Sansa's a "murdering whore"
Blows up Olenna Tyrell's entire family --> Olenna's a traitorous "old cunt"
Tyrion was born --> Evil little murdering imp is he dead yet

Yeah, her perception of reality is quite warped.

Although, she calls Sansa a murdering whore because she still thinks Sansa murdered Joffrey (and that was never disproven)

 

[Zolo]

Yeah, her perception of reality is quite warped.

Although, she calls Sansa a murdering whore because she still thinks Sansa murdered Joffrey (and that was never disproven)

At this point, I'm surprised Olenna hasn't sent her a letter telling Cersei she did it out of spite.

 

[The Artisan]

totally off topic (well still game of thrones but) i just realized jon snow's hair has its own contract.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

So yes. They're opportunists before being good and moral people.

They're opportunists before being good and moral people. Cersei is an opportunist IN PLACE OF being a good and moral person. There's a difference. Margaery is shown engaging in charitable activity multiple times. Maybe she's doing it for "the wrong reasons," but it's still charitable activity. Name one charitable act Cersei has done in the entire series. Defending Sansa from her horrible son one time? Arguing that Ned shouldn't be beheaded after she threw him in jail for no reason? Margaery may be a power-grabbing opportunist, but she always tried to do it in a "nice" way. Cersei just doesn't give a fuck, increasingly so as she became a drunk and watched her kids die.

 

[Zolo]

They're opportunists before being good and moral people. Cersei is an opportunist IN PLACE OF being a good and moral person. There's a difference. Margaery is shown engaging in charitable activity multiple times. Maybe she's doing it for "the wrong reasons," but it's still charitable activity. Name one charitable act Cersei has done in the entire series. Defending Sansa from her horrible son one time? Arguing that Ned shouldn't be beheaded after she threw him in jail for no reason? Margaery may be a power-grabbing opportunist, but she always tried to do it in a "nice" way. Cersei just doesn't give a fuck, increasingly so as she became a drunk and watched her kids die.

I agree. I wasn't saying Margaery was as bad as Cersei.

 

[The Artisan]

I agree. I wasn't saying Margaery was as bad as Cersei.

you weren't, but Einchy & Nameless were

I'm all for just accepting that people's perspectives can just be from a different view sometimes and that's that. As long as there's a mutual respect. We're all in this thread coz we love this show. No 2 people in this whole world will ever agree on anything and that's fine. I love the show all the same, Cersei is a great character, evil as all fuck, but great.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I agree. I wasn't saying Margaery was as bad as Cersei.

My bad, I thought you were Einchy. He was making basically the same argument but with a "both sides" angle that is unjustifiable with what's transpired in the show so far.

 

[The Artisan]

My bad, I thought you were Einchy. He was making basically the same argument but with a "both sides" angle that is unjustifiable with what's transpired in the show so far.

It's clear though that he's not gonna change his mind. And we won't change ours, so with no rudeness I'm saying what's even the point

 

[Nameless]

First off, Dany doesn't know all that much about the chaos that has happened in Westeros in her absense, second of all a war would end in casualties on both sides but Cersei's terrorist act wasn't one of war, there was no literal war taking place right there in the city of king's landing, it was just her killing people to stay in power. Cersei is evil, Dany is not. Maybe it's best we agree to disagree.

YES. It was satisfying as fuck to see Ramsey die. It was satisfying as fuck to see Walder Frey die. It was satisfying as fuck to see Carl Tanner die. And I'm pretty sure it's not my personal evil scale, but a general conensusJust putting it out there that I don't buy into this "game" shit and take everything that Cersei says as gospel because not everyone in the story is as power hungry as she is. Also, Joffrey deserved to fucking die. and how exactly was Tommen better off with his mother as an influence instead? What evidence is there to prove that the Tyrells in power would be bad for the realm? Sansa WANTED to get away from the Lannisters, so that "stealing" is justified to me since it would've been consensual and moreover, what family clan was the one that ended up "stealing" Sansa anyway? The fucking Lannisters, who continued to ruin her life at the expense of keeping themselves in power. The Lannisters' interests are only self interests, not concerning the welfare of anyone else and Cersei was the one who brought them into power like you said, she would not have had to deal with the faith militant if she would've just got over the fact that her son is married now and she's just losing power. She couldn't stand that.

I do not believe that at all. Cersei put Joffrey in power so that she herself would continue to have power.

She knew the monster that Joffrey was, yet instrumented his spot on the Iron Throne.

-Of course she knows about the War of the Five Kings. Westeros was in the shitter before her Hand of the Queen left, no excuse to be misinformed at this point. And again, I'm talking about CIVILIAN casualties. The show has made it a point to stress how the common-folk suffer most amid the Great Houses' conflicts. Her conquest of Westeros will inevitably cost innocent lives through battle, the extracurricular activities of her men, and/or the strain war puts on resources.

Jorah:Tell me a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands
Ser Barristan: None

Dany heard this.

-Cersei will do anything to win. If you don't subscribe to the 'game' then you're straight up ignoring a major element of the story and the world GRRM built. Also you still you haven't shown me how she takes pleasure in torturing and murdering innocent people like the Ramsays/Joffs/Tanners of the world. You also haven't labeled Tywin as evil and he directly informed Cersei's playbook.

-I also said "to ensure their position as a Great House". Yes, self interest and self preservation are huge drivers for Cersei, when have I said otherwise? The fact still remains that she moved against Ned because he discovered her secret and was moving against her. This can't be disputed.

Here's another scene that contradicts your views on -Cersei and Joffrey:

https://youtu.be/53ZY_EEl6j0

 

[RS4-]

It's a shame we never got to see just how evil Ned truly was.

I bet he's into touching his kids, but he just wasn't evil enough to do it at their current ages.

 

[The Artisan]

-Of course she knows about the War of the Five Kings. Westeros was in the shitter before her Hand of the Queen left, no excuse to be misinformed at this point. And again, I'm talking about CIVILIAN casualties. The show has made it a point to stress how the common-folk suffer most amid the Great Houses' conflicts. Her conquest o Westeros will inevitably cost innocent lives through battle, the extracurricular activities of her men, and/or the strain war puts on resources.

Okay fine she knew about the war. But, she had her own life to deal with and has zero experience with Westeros. In a way, her whole she's been alone. No family or anything like maester Aemon said "a targaryen alone in the world, it's a terrible thing."

Jorah:Tell me a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands
Ser Barristan: None

Dany heard this.

-Cersei will do anything to win. If you don't subscribe to the 'game' then you're straight up ignoring a major element of the story and the world GRRM built. Also you still you haven't shown me how she takes pleasure in torturing and murdering like the Ramsays/Joffs/Tanners of the world. You also haven't labeled Tywin as evil and he directly informed Cersei's playbook.

-I also said "to ensure their position as a Great House". Yes, self interest and self preservation are huge drivers for Cersei, when have I said otherwise? The fact still remains that she moved against Ned because he was found out her secret and was moving against her. This can't be disputed.

Here's another scene that contradicts your views on -Cersei and Joffrey:

https://youtu.be/53ZY_EEl6j0

I'm just going to shorten this for you: I don't think Dany would do anything to win, when she learned of 1 little girl being burned alive by her dragons she was shook, and locked them up. No amount of Cersei saying how Joffrey was a bad idea will change the fact that Joffrey got the iron throne in the first place because of her just like the High sparrow took over King's landing because of her.

I don't think you're enjoying arguing about this anymore right? I mean, if you want to keep talking about it we can but it's just a back and forth like youtube comments now. But we can continue if you want.

 

[m23]

still, margeary is more waifu material than cersei

Truth.