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[Heshinsi]

I mean, Jon wouldn't go South in the first place since he knows better. If she tries to go North it's all over, if she waits for the Spring then the North will essentially become it's own nation in the interim. She wouldn't have the army to conqueror a united North by that point, given the debts the Lannisters hold.

I don't think there's a way for her to get what she wants in this situation, even if you remove Dany and the White Walkers.

I agree. On top of that, it isn't as if the Reach and Dorne wouldn't be making moves of their own. Two large armies to your south and West, and you want to go invading the North?

 

[Einchy]

Cersei is in a sandwich full of fuckedness. I really don't see how she can possibly make it out alive here.

I don't think she makes it past season 7, she will never even know about the White Walkers.

 

[Sephzilla]

The only way Cersei makes it out alive is if she flees Westeros entirely. I think she makes it out of Season 7 though, her death is likely going to be the climax of the series

 

[OrionX]

Cersei is in a sandwich full of fuckedness. I really don't see how she can possibly make it out alive here.

I don't think she makes it past season 7, she will never even know about the White Walkers.

I think she's got at least one more "holy fuck did she just do that" moment in her, but yeah her days gotta be numbered.

 

[Sunster]

I think she's got at least one more "holy fuck did she just do that" moment in her, but yeah her days gotta be numbered.

yea she's gonna use that navy for something.

 

[Einchy]

The only way Cersei makes it out alive is if she flees Westeros entirely. I think she makes it out of Season 7 though, her death is likely going to be the climax of the series

I thinking she season in the last episode of season 7, and season 8 is all Dany and Jon together, fighting the White Walkers. With all storylines converging together with Dany and Jon.

 

[Sande]

The first book is called "The Game of Thrones", in the first book/season, there was no war until the end, "the game" is just this world's politics but in this world, you can kill your political rivals via betray, assassination or just straight up war.

Tyrion talks about how he likes the game, because he is good at it, then he warns Dany that she should be scared because she is now part of the great game. The first time he was talking about just the betrayal and outsmarting part and the second was the part they were now entering, which deals with war. It's all The Game of Thrones.

But it's still different. You're talking like murder means nothing in this world and everything is just as justifiable. That's not how it works. There's nuance.

 

[Einchy]

But it's still different. You're talking like murder means nothing in this world and everything is just as justifiable. That's not how it works. There's nuance.

How am I removing nuance? People have been betraying and killing each other since episode one, who says murder means nothing, it means a lot, we're in this whole mess because people were murdering each other.

None of that means that the game is somehow two things, they're both part of it.

 

[darkstar0155]

Preach. Everyone wanted Cersei to roll over and die, Cersei chose violence.

She's no different than a lot of the anti heroes in the series, doing whatever it takes to avoid her fate. The hate she gets is way too disproportional. No one shits on Tywin the way they shit on Cersei.

Honestly I think the reason Tywin doesn't giet shit on as much is he doesn't have even close to the amount of screen time.

 

[The Artisan]

So, trying to kill the rightful heir to the Throne by teaming up with a usurper, and then having no issue with going to war with him, which would've caused thousands of innocent people to die is not bad just "selfish"?

Bad, selfish whatever - Joffrey was not the true king and that's why the conflict was there. But Cersei was willing to personally have people killed to keep power, Margery wasn't.

"Cersei would have done the same thing and worse."

Exactly, people in this world do that is necessary for them to survive. Cersei does it. Margery does it. Everyone does it. Everyone in this world is shitty and do really awful things to get what they want.

My key words there are "and worse".

Cersei doesn't do what she needs to survive, she does what she needs to stay in power.

I mean, good thing Margery doesn't enjoy killing, but she enjoys what killing will get her. So that's fine and she's completely blameless, for some reason. If someone kills Cersei because they're protecting themselves from what Cersei is doing, then that's fine. It's all part of the game.

Again, you resort to putting words in my mouth.

Cersei enjoys both killing and what killing gets her. As someone else said earlier, it sounds like you're focusing so much on Margery because you're deflecting from Cersei.

Preach. Everyone wanted Cersei to roll over and die, Cersei chose violence.

She's no different than a lot of the anti heroes in the series, doing whatever it takes to avoid her fate. The hate she gets is way too disproportional. No one shits on Tywin the way they shit on Cersei.

Tywin is evil too, he just isn't as much of a main character as she is.

Honestly I think the reason Tywin doesn't giet shit on as much is he doesn't have even close to the amount of screen time.

Exactly

 

[Ravelle]

The only way Cersei makes it out alive is if she flees Westeros entirely. I think she makes it out of Season 7 though, her death is likely going to be the climax of the series

I hope Jaime casually just stabs her, sighs and says to no one in particular he's tired of this shit.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

The only way Cersei makes it out alive is if she flees Westeros entirely. I think she makes it out of Season 7 though, her death is likely going to be the climax of the series

Nah. I bet she's out this season. Same with Jamie.

 

[The Artisan]

Nah. I bet she's out this season. Same with Jamie.

I think they'll both be alive until the end of the series.

 

[Sephzilla]

Cersei is the main villain of the show. I don't see how they'd go an entire season without her since the next biggest villain doesn't even speak.

If this doesn't end with Jaime killing Cersei I'll be disappointed. Also, who's next in the line of succession after Cersei?

 

[Sande]

How am I removing nuance? People have been betraying and killing each other since episode one, who says murder means nothing, it means a lot, we're in this whole mess because people were murdering each other.

You're saying murder means next to nothing ethically. That's the whole discussion here: how evil is Cersei. My point is that political scheming being part of the game doesn't justify murder at all.

And just because political scheming can be considered part of the game just like war doesn't equate those two things. Both part of the game in the general sense, sure, but completely different entities, obviously. In one it's okay to kill your opponent, in the other it's not. Unless you're as fucked up as someone like Cersei.

When you say that Cersei and Margaery are more or less as bad, you're throwing hundreds of pages of nuance and tangible differences out of the windows just because that's the game and them's the rules.

 

[the_firewithin]

Cersei is in a sandwich full of fuckedness. I really don't see how she can possibly make it out alive here.

I don't think she makes it past season 7, she will never even know about the White Walkers.

I don't think she cares. She lost all her kids so she's in a no fucks given mode right now

 

[The Artisan]

Preach. Everyone wanted Cersei to roll over and die, Cersei chose violence.

For good fucking reason!

She's no different than a lot of the anti heroes in the series, doing whatever it takes to avoid her fate. The hate she gets is way too disproportional. No one shits on Tywin the way they shit on Cersei.

She's VERY different than other characters and I would definitely not classify her as an anti-hero, that's someone along the lines of her brother or the Hound

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I think they'll both be alive until the end of the series.

She definitely won't even if you think she will survive this season.

The prophecy about her has all but come true, sans her death.

 

[The Artisan]

She definitely won't even if you think she will survive this season.

The prophecy about her has all but come true, sans her death.

well maybe not the final episode of the final season, but I do think she will make it through this season unscathed.

 

[Einchy]

Bad, selfish whatever - Joffrey was not the true king and that's why the conflict was there. But Cersei was willing to personally have people killed to keep power, Margery wasn't.

My key words there are "and worse".

Cersei doesn't do what she needs to survive, she does what she needs to stay in power.

Again, you resort to putting words in my mouth.

Cersei enjoys both killing and what killing gets her. As someone else said earlier, it sounds like you're focusing so much on Margery because you're deflecting from Cersei.

Tywin is evil too, he just isn't as much of a main character as she is.
Exactly

And neither was Renly. If Joffrey wasn't the true king, then Stannis was, you kept talking about how bad it was that Joffrey was king when he was a bastard but then have no problem with Margaery backing Renly.

"Stay in power" meant have someone control my child or me die, she did what needed to be done. She does what she thinks is best for her children, she's not about to let the Tyrells make a meat puppet out of him.

I'm bringing up Margery because you kept bringing her up. Now I'm using her to illustrate how people in this world will do what is necessary for them to win. WIth Cersei we hate her for it because she does it against characters we like, while when Margery does it, we like her because it's against characters who don't like.

 

[darkstar0155]

Also, who's next in the line of succession after Cersei?

Shit, who knows. Jamie? That would sorta be a fun spin. Jamie kills Cersei, while crying some type of "you made me do it!" ala S.W. Ep. 3 shit, then teams up with both Jon and Danny to take down the WW's.

 

[The Artisan]

And neither have Renly.

Neither have Renly what?

If Joffrey wasn't the true king, then Stannis was, you kept talking about how bad it was that Joffrey was king when he was a bastard but then have no idea with Margaery backing Renly.

What is the discussion you want to have here? You want to discuss who I think was the one true king or how to gauge the evilness of Cersei? Because they aren't the same topic. Joffrey was put in power by Cersei, this action causes Stannis and Renly to step up but I'm not talking about them two.

"Stay in power" meant have someone control my child or me die, she did what needed to be done. She does what she thinks is best for her children, she's not about to let the Tyrells make a meat puppet out of him.

No. "Stay in power" meant stay in the Red Keep. She loves power more than her children. She doesn't care for what's best for her children, she knew Tommen cared about Margery and she cared little when she learned of Tommen's death.

I'm bringing up Margery because you kept bringing her up.

I'm fairly certain you have been bringing up Margery to compare to Cersei and to say they're the same.

Now I'm using her to illustrate how people in this world will do what is necessary for them to win. WIth Cersei we hate her for it because she does it against characters we like, while when Margery does it, we like her because it's against characters who don't like.

The illustrations are hard to look at. Cersei kills to stay on top, she ruins lives to stay on top. Margery did neither.

 

[kubus]

Holy fuck I like Cersei too because she is an intriguing character but she is a massive dick and evil to the bone. Cersei even admits in s06e10 that she loves to do evil shit because it makes her feel good. She says that right before she has The Mountain rape the septa with a zombie dick. Not evil at all. Margaery would do the same. /s.

 

[darkstar0155]

"Stay in power" meant have someone control my child or me die, she did what needed to be done. She does what she thinks is best for her children, she's not about to let the Tyrells make a meat puppet out of him.

Oh no! His wife has more influence and sway on my kid than I do! That totally justifies killing tons of innocent people!

She had no idea if she would die or not. The show in no way states what the punishment would have been if she confessed to everything, or if she was found guilty, that I know of. You could say look what happened to Margery's brother, but that happened AFTER Cersei already set all the plans in place to kill everyone.

 

[ComputerBlue]

Cersei might not know about the White Walkers, but more importantly since Cersei has little war power by comparison, does Dany?

Her whole mission is ruling the 7 kingdoms and that's all it's been.

I don't remember Varys or anyone ever mentioning it to her.

 

[Sande]

No. "Stay in power" meant stay in the Red Keep. She loves power more than her children. She doesn't care for what's best for her children, she knew Tommen cared about Margery and she cared little when she learned of Tommen's death.

Tommen was pretty much dead to her the second he didn't mean absolute power for her anymore. Quite telling.

 

[darkstar0155]

Holy fuck I like Cersei too because she is an intriguing character but she is a massive dick and evil to the bone. Cersei even admits in s06e10 that she loves to do evil shit because it makes her feel good. She says that right before she has The Mountain rape the septa with a zombie dick. Not evil at all. Margaery would do the same. /s.

Ok, I remember her saying it makes her feel good.. but when did this mountain rape happen?!

 

[Sephzilla]

I have a hard time believing that Cersei hasn't heard about the White Walker threat. She knew Danny was coming well in advance, so how couldn't she hear about an army of zombies supposedly trying to break into their front yard.

 

[More_Badass]

Ok, I remember her saying it makes her feel good.. but when did this mountain rape happen?!

It's implied. The mountain takes its helmet off and approaches the septa as Cersei leaves the room and closes the door

I have a hard time believing that Cersei hasn't heard about the White Walker threat. She knew Danny was coming well in advance, so how couldn't she hear about an army of zombies supposedly trying to break into their front yard.

Why would anyone believe such an outlandish fairy tale when they got an actual war to deal with it?

 

[The Artisan]

Cersei might not know about the White Walkers, but more importantly since Cersei has little war power by comparison, does Dany?

Her whole mission is ruling the 7 kingdoms and that's all it's been.

I don't remember Varys or anyone ever mentioning it to her.

I don't think Varys knows about the white walkers either. If Jon meets him when/if he goes to Dragonstone then he'll learn of all of it.

 

[Sephzilla]

Why would anyone believe such an outlandish fairy tale when they got an actual war to deal with it?

I said heard about it, not necessarily believe it (or care)

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

You guys would ruin the show.

Okay, Dany finally got to Westeros, this is the moment everyone has been waiting for but first lets send a shit ton of troops to make sure no one is there, so she has to wait a few hours on the boat. Oh shit, there was people in there, now they have to kill those people, a day later and she can finally come out. But just incase there might be people hiding, she has to walk behind her troops.

Now it's episode 7, the season over and she hasn't even gotten to the castle.

If I was in charge, she wouldn't have spent 6 season in the who gives a fuck continent This isn't some huge issue, just felt odd. Some guys could have easily hidden from the dragons and straight up murdered her right there, it would have been the most hilarious kill in tv history after all that wait.

My sister made a good point though since Danny has her head so far up her own ass, it makes sense that she walks in front of everyone despite it being a bad idea. So it fits with her character.

 

[The Artisan]

Tommen was pretty much dead to her the second he didn't mean absolute power for her anymore. Quite telling.

What that tells me is that Cersei's true love is power, not her children, or Jaime.

 

[Robdraggoo]

I have a hard time believing that Cersei hasn't heard about the White Walker threat. She knew Danny was coming well in advance, so how couldn't she hear about an army of zombies supposedly trying to break into their front yard.

They don't believe it, it's fairy tales and non sense to the southerners. They've said as much in previous seasons.

 

[The Artisan]

If I was in charge, she wouldn't have spent 6 season in the who gives a fuck continent This isn't some huge issue, just felt odd. Some guys could have easily hidden from the dragons and straight up murdered her right there, it would have been the most hilarious kill in tv history after all that wait.

My sister made a good point though since Danny has her head so far up her own ass, it makes sense that she walks in front of everyone despite it being a bad idea. So it fits with her character.

If she does end up meeting Jon, I think the conversations they'll have will put a few critical blows into her ego.

 

[ComputerBlue]

I don't think Varys knows about the white walkers either. If Jon meets him when/if he goes to Dragonstone then he'll learn of all of it.

I think Varys knows. He's still got spies and connections.

For the good of the realm, maybe his whole plan is bringing her to Westeros for that and that alone.

 

[Zolo]

Do people really think Margaery would have been above killing people for the crown? Doing the right and good thing when it's also beneficial to her doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to throw those morals away if needed.

 

[The Artisan]

I think Varys knows. He's still got spies and connections.

For the good of the realm, maybe his whole plan is bringing her to Westeros for that and that alone.

correct me if I'm wrong but of all the spies and connections Varys has got, he never heard much about the stuff going on right at the wall, or beyond it. Because that stuff doesn't have to do with the politics of westeros.

I suppose if he did know about the threat, then he would've talked to Tyrion about it because Tyrion has been to the wall himself and shuddered a little at the spooky shit Aemon and Jeor were telling him.

 

[WriterGK]

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4qt1ox/i_am_professional_wolf_trainer_andrew_simpson_and/

They were played by dogs when they were still pups, which is why they used to show up more.

My bad then, I stand corrected. Thnx 4 reddit

 

[Einchy]

Neither have Renly what? What is the discussion you want to have here? You want to discuss who I think was the one true king or how to gauge the evilness of Cersei? Because they aren't the same topic. Joffrey was put in power by Cersei, this action causes Stannis and Renly to step up but I'm not talking about them two.

No. "Stay in power" meant stay in the Red Keep. She loves power more than her children. She doesn't care for what's best for her children, she knew Tommen cared about Margery and she cared little when she learned of Tommen's death.

I'm fairly certain you have been bringing up Margery to compare to Cersei and to say they're the same.The illustrations are hard to look at. Cersei kills to stay on top, she ruins lives to stay on top. Margery did neither.

We're having a discussion about the events that have happened in the show, and why said characters did them, besides "they're just evil".

You kept bringing up how Cersei was evil because she put Joffrey into power, someone who wasn't the rightful heir, this was something you brought up multiple times. Like this was one of the evil things Cersei did. Then you brought up Margaery and asked why she deserved to die, completely ignoring that she backed Renly, someone who wasn't the rightful heir, would've gone to war and caused the deaths of thousands of people, then when Renly died, she teamed up with yet another "unrightful heir" to try and kill the rightful one, in the purpose murdering thousands of his people. She has caused many death just because she wanted power.

No, she doesn't love power more than she loves her children. From season one it was hammered into us that, above all else, Cersei loved her children and would do anything for them, which ended up causing her to do a lot of the shit she has done since then, because she loves her children so much. This point is even illustrated in the last episode, because she has become "the man queen" once her children died, so much so that she even said Tommen betrayed her, something that we would've never heard from season 1 Cersei since she loved her children above all else.

 

[The Artisan]

Do people really think Margaery would have been above killing people for the crown? Doing the right and good thing when it's also beneficial to her doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to throw those morals away if needed.

Yes I really think that, because I've got no reason to believe otherwise. There's been no hint at her wanting to break bad, no hint at her taking pleasure at killing or seeing bloodshed.

 

[Volimar]

Do people really think Margaery would have been above killing people for the crown? Doing the right and good thing when it's also beneficial to her doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to throw those morals away if needed.

She was shocked when she found out her grandmother was behind killing Joffrey. Manipulation is one thing, but I don't think she'd have gone that far.

 

[Sephzilla]

Do people really think Margaery would have been above killing people for the crown? Doing the right and good thing when it's also beneficial to her doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to throw those morals away if needed.

Yeah, I don't get where people think she was anything good. Margaery was a massive opportunist who only cared about the crown. She just never was put in a position where she had to kill someone. Almost everything we saw of her character gave a strong impression that she would go full Cersei if she had the power to

 

[darkstar0155]

It's implied. The mountain takes its helmet off and approaches the septa as Cersei leaves the room and closes the door?

Hm, the only thing that said to me was that she was about to be tortured.

 

[Nameless]

I think it is crazy to believe that Westeros is better off with Cersei as queen than Dany. As I said above, this is war. Dany takes no pleasure in knowing that people will die, except for the people that deserve it. She outlawed reaving, raving, raping, etc. whatever the fucked up shit the ironborn are into. Meanwhile, Cersei could probably not care less if innocent people are suffering under her rule. Like what Stannis said Roose & Ramsay "As long as the Boltons rule the north, the north will suffer."


Cersei knew all along what kind of a monster Joffrey was, and instead of being honest about it when Ned came to her and then Joffrey on the throne, she chose to continue the lie of Joffrey as a Baratheon, so she could remain in power. She was in full support of her son that was pure evil, and that makes her pure evil.


why do you keep telling yourself that Cersei killed everyone simply because she was fixated on "survival"? Loras was there and tried for his crimes; they mutilated him which was fucked up but they didn't kill him. So Cersei wasn't saving her own life since her own life wasn't in actual danger, she was just tired of not being one in control anymore. "sweet symphony" of their screams? You saying you as the viewer felt good to see the killing of 100+ innocent people? That's MURDER! That's EVIL!

What did Margery do that was evil? What did Loras do that was evil? What did Mace do that was evil? Why did the bystanders deserve to die?
Dany does not take pleasure in killing innocent people. She's done everything she can to help the least fortunate people. She has even punished them for getting out of line - but she took no pleasure in it. When did Dany ever kill innocent people for her own selfish gain?


Cersei was the one who put Joffrey in power, standing behind everything he did. Ramsay had arguably more power in his side of the world, flaying this person and that person. And given the opportunity, Cersei has made it a point to bing down and torture an individual (that septa that shamed her on the streets)

-I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. It's not about who'll be the better Queen, I was saying that starting another war, especially in Westoros' current state, is far more destructive and will lead to a far bigger civilian body count than Cersei's Sept bombing. Tyrion suggests that by staying in Essos she could do more good than conquering Westeros and she simply responds with "It's my home". It's just a funny feat of mental gymnastics to call someone evil for letting 50-100 people die to ensure her survival and position of influence, but sacrificing orders of magnitude more than that to conquer another Kingdom, the one you really want, is fine. Either they're both evil, or, engaged in a 'game' where immorality is required. I subscribe to the latter.

-So killing is ok as long as the person falls on your personal evil scale? The Tyrells were playing the Game and they lost. Period. They killed Joffrey, they manipulated and used Tommen, they tried to steal 'the key to the North' Sansa away from the Lannisters, and while Cersei originally empowered the High Sparrow, Margaery manipulated the situation so the Faith Militant were granted royal authority which
of course led to Jaime's dismissal from the King's Guard and Cersei being tried under ancient Sept law. No, these acts aren't evil, but they show how the Tyrells were actively plotting against the Lannisters and their interests. Again, this is the 'Great Game' and the stakes involved are clear.

-Cersei didn't bring Joffrey into power to revel in her psychopathic son's reign of terror, she did it to save her self and her family. Not just their lives but their position as a great house. Joffrey just happened to be first in line after Robert.

And yes,she did show regret and remorse about the way Joffrey turned out. - 3:45

 

[Volimar]

Hm, the only thing that said to me was that she was about to be tortured.

Given his history, sexual assault seems likely.

 

[darkstar0155]

Do people really think Margaery would have been above killing people for the crown? Doing the right and good thing when it's also beneficial to her doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to throw those morals away if needed.

I mean we can only go off of what the show has given us, but I haven't seen any hint that she would be actively killing people just for power.

 

[Zolo]

She was shocked when she found out her grandmother was behind killing Joffrey. Manipulation is one thing, but I don't think she'd have gone that far.

Her grandmother killed the king, so yeah. That's pretty shocking. The Tyrells though always struck as the type that generally did good and moral things because they also tended to be pragmatic and smart things. They always generally went whatever way would lead them to power though. They joined Renly because it meant Margaery could become queen. When Renly died, they joined up with the Lannisters rather than Stannis because joining the Lannisters meant they could get the crown.

Yeah, I don't get where people think she was anything good. Margaery was a massive opportunist who only cared about the crown. She just never was put in a position where she had to kill someone. Almost everything we saw of her character gave a strong impression that she would go full Cersei if she had the power to

So yes. They're opportunists before being good and moral people.

Hm, the only thing that said to me was that she was about to be tortured.

Cersei goes "shame". Also think about what the mountain is infamous for.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Hm, the only thing that said to me was that she was about to be tortured.

Yeah, sure, but he definitely raped her, too, which is his MO.

 

[darkstar0155]

Given his history, sexual assault seems likely.

I don't remember much of his history tbh, and once he was brought back I just always took him as sorta a brain dead zombie. I actually think that entire scene was a little odd. Would have been better with the guy who brought the Mountain back being the one in the room imo. Cant remember his name.