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Gotham S2 |OT| Dawn of Altruism - Mondays 8/7c

davepoobond

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
wtf. i think Gotham went sub-only on Hulu.

god damn it. at least i can use my cable's on demand thing.


Edit: interesting episode, but sort of weird. I don't know what the hell is going on and I guess that is a good thing.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
I thought that scene (where Jim and the head cop shot the boy) was in pretty bad taste. Especially seeing as the scene was meant to be comedic.

So sick of trigger happy "hero" cops.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
I do think that as funny as the scene is, it should be something taken more seriously by Jim atleast.

Like, he maybe has to come home and think "I shot a kid into blowing up today. This fucking city..." or something.

He shouldn't be indifferent to the death atleast.
 
D

dead souls

Member
EastOfEden said:
I thought that scene (where Jim and the head cop shot the boy) was in pretty bad taste. Especially seeing as the scene was meant to be comedic.

So sick of trigger happy "hero" cops.
Click to expand...

This is the same show that had a grown ass man deck Selina a few episodes ago, so it obviously doesn't care about good taste.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
I do think that as funny as the scene is, it should be something taken more seriously by Jim atleast.

Like, he maybe has to come home and think "I shot a kid into blowing up today. This fucking city..." or something.

He shouldn't be indifferent to the death atleast.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean at least.
Jim's a sociopath confirmed

dead souls said:
This is the same show that had a grown ass man deck Selina a few episodes ago, so it obviously doesn't care about good taste.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Though tbh in that case seeing as she murdered someone and got away with it, I feel like that was justified so she knows how fucked up the thing she did was. It's not like her parents are going to take her to a psychologist or anything.
 
E

Effect

Member
I didn't get the impression he was a kid. Young yeah and scrawny but not a minor or anything. Even Jerome wasn't a minor but 19 I think. That's the age I thought he was at. Maybe 20 or 21 as well.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
EastOfEden said:
Yeah. Though tbh in that case seeing as she murdered someone and got away with it, I feel like that was justified so she knows how fucked up the thing she did was. It's not like her parents are going to take her to a psychologist or anything.
Click to expand...

She murdered the guy who explicitely laid out that he was expose information to people who wanted to kill bruce. Not an unambiguously good thing to do and Alfred's emotional turmoil is understandable even if it was justified, but when people ask for an explanation for that scene, they always omit that Selina has a compelling reason to do what she did. She didn't just off the guy for kicks.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
She murdered the guy who explicitely laid out that he was expose information to people who wanted to kill bruce. Not an unambiguously good thing to do and Alfred's emotional turmoil is understandable even if it was justified, but when people ask for an explanation for that scene, they always omit that Selina has a compelling reason to do what she did. She didn't just off the guy for kicks.
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Sure, but there were other ways for Bruce not to get killed. Like hiding out in Europe for example, pretty sure Alfred suggested that at some point. (He's a millionaire, there would be a bunch of other options too, like hiring personal security guards etc.) Selina chose the most unethical option to deal with it. And what Selina did probably only delayed the inevitable, if it even affected anything at all.

Effect said:
I didn't get the impression he was a kid. Young yeah and scrawny but not a minor or anything. Even Jerome wasn't a minor but 19 I think. That's the age I thought he was at. Maybe 20 or 21 as well.
Click to expand...

His voice sounded pretty young though. I assumed he was around 16.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
EastOfEden said:
Sure, but there were other ways for Bruce not to get killed. Like hiding out in Europe for example, pretty sure Alfred suggested that at some point. (He's a millionaire, there would be a bunch of other options too, like hiring personal security guards etc.) Selina chose the most unethical option to deal with it. And what Selina did probably only delayed the inevitable, if it even affected anything at all.
Click to expand...

Alfred is a guy who works for millionaires. He knows their options. Selina is a street rat whose options don't include moving out of the city, let alone going to hide out in Europe. Her mental framework is a very kill or be killed set of mind. Those other options either don't come to mind, or else she considers them unfeasible (Yes, bodyguards, because we all know how reliable, unpassable, unbribable, and unbeatable they are).

I'm not arguing what Selina did was morally right. I'm arguing that what Selina did was benevolent in the framework that she has grown up with. It makes sense with her character, and that makes it good writing.

Same with how Alfred is reacting wrongly. Rather than smacking her, what he should be doing is getting her and Bruce arrested to be tried for hte murder of his friend, if we're going to be all hyper-unrealistically moral about it. But he's a guy who gets mad when his circle of mates is attacked, regardless of context, and expresses that anger violently, so he just smacked her and told her to fuck off, which does not serve justice in any way, it just makes things convenient for him.

That's what I love about Gotham. "But what X did was wrong!" Gotham doesn't give a shit. It's not about that. It's aware of and plays around with the concept of morality, but not lording it over the characters, punishing them whenever they step out of line. It's about whats true to the characters. Neither Selina nor Alfred are doing whats right because that's not who they are. They're doing whats true to themselves. And that is compelling writing.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
Alfred is a guy who works for millionaires. He knows their options. Selina is a street rat whose options don't include moving out of the city, let alone going to hide out in Europe. Her mental framework is a very kill or be killed set of mind. Those other options either don't come to mind, or else she considers them unfeasible (Yes, bodyguards, because we all know how reliable, unpassable, unbribable, and unbeatable they are).

I'm not arguing what Selina did was morally right. I'm arguing that what Selina did was benevolent in the framework that she has grown up with. It makes sense with her character, and that makes it good writing.

Same with how Alfred is reacting wrongly. Rather than smacking her, what he should be doing is getting her and Bruce arrested to be tried for hte murder of his friend, if we're going to be all hyper-unrealistically moral about it. But he's a guy who gets mad when his circle of mates is attacked, regardless of context, and expresses that anger violently, so he just smacked her and told her to fuck off, which does not serve justice in any way, it just makes things convenient for him.

That's what I love about Gotham. "But what X did was wrong!" Gotham doesn't give a shit. It's not about that. It's aware of and plays around with the concept of morality, but not lording it over the characters, punishing them whenever they step out of line. It's about whats true to the characters. Neither Selina nor Alfred are doing whats right because that's not who they are. They're doing whats true to themselves. And that is compelling writing.
Click to expand...

Lol, you think reporting a murder to the police is hyper-unrealistically moral? Sheesh.

That may have been the right thing to do. But then again Selena's pretty untrustworthy, so she might've claimed that Bruce did it. It didn't seem like there were any (sober) witnesses so it might be too big a risk for Bruce, who was innocent.

So yeah, taking that into account I think the slap was justified. I doubt a stern talking to would've gotten through to her.

Also, I don't even know why we're arguing if you're not talking about morals. I never said anything was out-of-character.
 
A

Ahasverus

Member
This show is an acid dream. I don't even need the Bman, it's the "Springtime for Hitler" of Super Heroes. Please never cancel it. Please.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
EastOfEden said:
Lol, you think reporting a murder to the police is hyper-unrealistically moral? Sheesh.

That may have been the right thing to do. But then again Selena's pretty untrustworthy, so she might've claimed that Bruce did it. It didn't seem like there were any (sober) witnesses so it might be too big a risk for Bruce, who was innocent.

So yeah, taking that into account I think the slap was justified. I doubt a stern talking to would've gotten through to her.

Also, I don't even know why we're arguing if you're not talking about morals. I never said anything was out-of-character.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point. The act of reporting a murder isn't hyper-unrealistically moral itself. It's hyper-unrealistically moral for Alfred. He's the sort that takes care of his own problems, this is clear both in how he handled his old army buddy himself after he was caught stealing and even earlier how he told Bruce to just beat the kid who was giving him trouble and he witnessed it and reported it.

You're mistakenly looking at the situation of it and not looking at the character. Alfred isn't this cold, hyper rational person who is otherwise an upstanding citizen. He's not refusing to go to the police because he thinks there's any chance that Selina might lay the blame on Bruce. Even if she tried to do something like that, it would be a he-said, she-said of Gotham's golden boy vs some street rat who can't afford a lawyer to back her up. All of which, btw, wouldn't happen because it wouldn't be within Bruce's character to even testify against Selina. So, no, if Alfred and Bruce were conscientious people who just wanted to see justice done, a court case would be exactly what they'd want.

But it's not, because it would by hyper-unrealistically moral for them to go down that path just because Selina offed a guy. Instead, Alfred smacked her. He did it because he was angry and he's a man who expresses his anger with violence. He's not trying to 'teach her a lesson' or express any sort of justice. He wanted to get a hit out and then told her to gtfo of Bruce's life. It's as simple as that.
 
J

Jason Frost

Member
Everytime I see the title of the thread, I read "Dawn of Autism".

Probably because you know, Bruce is played by the same actor who played that kid in Touch...
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
- TVLine: Gotham's Camren Bicondova Teases 'Angry' Selina, Weighs In on That Slap.
TVLINE | Now, the week before, did Alfred punch Cat or slap her?

OK, Alfred slapped her — but in real life, he did not touch me. I want everybody to know, because people have been really mean to Sean [Pertwee]. No actresses were hurt in the making of that scene. It’s all good!
Click to expand...
south-park-s12e13c12-go-ahead-make-my-day-4x3.jpg
 
S

Sober

Member
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
You're missing the point. The act of reporting a murder isn't hyper-unrealistically moral itself. It's hyper-unrealistically moral for Alfred. He's the sort that takes care of his own problems, this is clear both in how he handled his old army buddy himself after he was caught stealing and even earlier how he told Bruce to just beat the kid who was giving him trouble and he witnessed it and reported it.

You're mistakenly looking at the situation of it and not looking at the character. Alfred isn't this cold, hyper rational person who is otherwise an upstanding citizen. He's not refusing to go to the police because he thinks there's any chance that Selina might lay the blame on Bruce. Even if she tried to do something like that, it would be a he-said, she-said of Gotham's golden boy vs some street rat who can't afford a lawyer to back her up. All of which, btw, wouldn't happen because it wouldn't be within Bruce's character to even testify against Selina. So, no, if Alfred and Bruce were conscientious people who just wanted to see justice done, a court case would be exactly what they'd want.
Click to expand...

I was talking about the moral thing to do. And as I said before a court case may cause more harm than good that a "hyper moral" person would want to avoid. But this is pretty irrelevant anyway.

Veelk said:
But it's not, because it would by hyper-unrealistically moral for them to go down that path just because Selina offed a guy. Instead, Alfred smacked her. He did it because he was angry and he's a man who expresses his anger with violence. He's not trying to 'teach her a lesson' or express any sort of justice. He wanted to get a hit out and then told her to gtfo of Bruce's life. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...

This is the only thing we're really arguing about. We both think it's in character for Alfred to slap Selina. You just have a much more cynical view of Alfred while I think he's more of a fatherly type and that the slap was done both out of anger and also in a disciplinary way.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
EastOfEden said:
I was talking about the moral thing to do. And as I said before a court case may cause more harm than good that a "hyper moral" person would want to avoid. But this is pretty irrelevant anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes, it would, to Selina and her alone. The idea that Bruce would have anything to lose in a regular court case, especially against some nobody street urchin who wouldn't be able to get a lawyer if she scrounged up her lifesavings to get one, in a city where corruption is a feature instead of a bug is ridiculous. She would get destroyed.

But neither Selina nor Bruce nor Alfred are interested in doing things the legal or moral way. Bruce wouldn't sell out his only friend, even for murder, Selina wouldn't even bother with the trial if she did get caught, and Alfred would have no satisfaction from the weeks long duration of the trial where he's trying to get 'justice' for his fallen friend who he knows was also doing something shady to his ward.

EastOfEden said:
This is the only thing we're really arguing about. We both think it's in character for Alfred to slap Selina. You just have a much more cynical view of Alfred while I think he's more of a fatherly type and that the slap was done both out of anger and also in a disciplinary way.
Click to expand...

Fatherly? Toward Selina? Dude, he hates her. He sees her as a leech and poison to the only kid he is caring towards and he's made that more than clear. If there was any doubt, the "GTFO and don't come back" after the slap sealed the deal. There's no discipline to kicking a child out of your life wholesale. Disowning/abandoning a child is the literal opposite of parenting. This isn't cynicism, it's just making bare faced observations. Those traits in Alfred toward Selina exist the same way sexual attraction towards Jim Gordon exists in Bruce: if you can point to scenes where it exists, please show me. Otherwise, I think you're making some stuff up. The generally kind and paternal Alfred of the comics doesn't exist here. This Alfred can be kind and paternal, but towards Bruce alone. Other kids are not his problem.

I wonder how he'll perceive Silver.

Edit: Also, while we're on the subject, physical abuse as punishment to a child that isn't even his and has no authority over is by itself a pretty fucked up thing.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
Fatherly? Toward Selina? Dude, he hates her. He sees her as a leech and poison to the only kid he is caring towards and he's made that more than clear. If there was any doubt, the "GTFO and don't come back" after the slap sealed the deal. There's no discipline to kicking a child out of your life wholesale. Disowning/abandoning a child is the literal opposite of parenting. This isn't cynicism, it's just making bare faced observations. Those traits in Alfred toward Selina exist the same way sexual attraction towards Jim Gordon exists in Bruce: if you can point to scenes where it exists, please show me. Otherwise, I think you're making some stuff up. The generally kind and paternal Alfred of the comics doesn't exist here. This Alfred can be kind and paternal, but towards Bruce alone. Other kids are not his problem.

I wonder how he'll perceive Silver.

Edit: Also, while we're on the subject, physical abuse as punishment to a child that isn't even his and has no authority over is by itself a pretty fucked up thing.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking back to the scenes when she was staying with Bruce in S1, he didn't trust her but still seemed caring. And also I meant Alfred has a fatherly personality, not that he's stepping in as a father to Selina. He is, however, Bruce's guardian and the first priority should be Bruce's safety. So telling Selina to never come back is absolutely what he needed to do because she puts Bruce in danger in several different ways.

And yes in the vast majority of cases it is, but who else was going to explain (and get through) to Selina that what she did was unethical? She needed a wake up call, otherwise she'll just continue down a violent path thinking there are no consequences.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
EastOfEden said:
I'm thinking back to the scenes when she was staying with Bruce in S1, he didn't trust her but still seemed caring. And also I meant Alfred has a fatherly personality, not that he's stepping in as a father to Selina. He is, however, Bruce's guardian and the first priority should be Bruce's safety. So telling Selina to never come back is absolutely what he needed to do because she puts Bruce in danger in several different ways.

And yes in the vast majority of cases it is, but who else was going to explain (and get through) to Selina that what she did was unethical? She needed a wake up call, otherwise she'll just continue down a violent path thinking there are no consequences.
Click to expand...

Well, unless you want to actually point out scenes where he is being fatherly to...anyone, basically, you're just kinda making stuff up here. What your describing simply isn't part of his characterization anywhere in the show. I don't really consider this a matter of disagreeing opinions, because there is zero evidence for the case as your stating it. No, he wasn't trusting but still seemed caring, he simply didn't trust her and barely tolerated her presence because he didn't have good reason to throw her out on principle of being a streetrat. He never displayed any interest in her life or wellbeing.

And 'explain'? Seriously, don't ever become a parent if you're conception of explaining right and wrong is socking a kid in the face, because that is literally all he did. He didn't lecture her, he didn't try to get through to her. To do those things requires more than a smack on the face and then "That was for X, you little shit, now gtfo and don't come back".

Not only that, you seem under the delusion that he's punishing for committing an immoral act. He's punishing her for specifically killing his buddy and endangering his ward, rather than the general act of murder. Meaning, the way he framed this 'lesson' so to speak, he's not saying "Don't kill people", he's saying "Stay away from MY people. You can go ahead and do whatever to people I'm not associated with." Because that's the kind of attitude he has displayed for a long time now. He looks out for his own, and is apathetic to others. In his eyes, she can throw as many people out windows as she wants, as long as they're not associated with him.
 
E

EastOfEden

Member
Veelk said:
Well, unless you want to actually point out scenes where he is being fatherly to...anyone, basically, you're just kinda making stuff up here. What your describing simply isn't part of his characterization anywhere in the show. I don't really consider this a matter of disagreeing opinions, because there is zero evidence for the case as your stating it. No, he wasn't trusting but still seemed caring, he simply didn't trust her and barely tolerated her presence because he didn't have good reason to throw her out on principle of being a streetrat. He never displayed any interest in her life or wellbeing.

And 'explain'? Seriously, don't ever become a parent if you're conception of explaining right and wrong is socking a kid in the face, because that is literally all he did. He didn't lecture her, he didn't try to get through to her. To do those things requires more than a smack on the face and then "That was for X, you little shit, now gtfo and don't come back".

Not only that, you seem under the delusion that he's punishing for committing an immoral act. He's punishing her for specifically killing his buddy and endangering his ward, rather than the general act of murder. Meaning, the way he framed this 'lesson' so to speak, he's not saying "Don't kill people", he's saying "Stay away from MY people. You can go ahead and do whatever to people I'm not associated with." Because that's the kind of attitude he has displayed for a long time now. He looks out for his own, and is apathetic to others. In his eyes, she can throw as many people out windows as she wants, as long as they're not associated with him.
Click to expand...

Okay, I guess I would have to rewatch to point out specific scenes (which I'm not going to do). I definitely could be wrong about Alfred, but maybe not. I guess we'll see by the end of the season when they've interacted more.

Also, nice strawman. Yep I definitely would hit my child to teach them right and wrong. /SARCASM. Not like there isn't a bunch of other factors to this that I've already talked about.
 
T

TheOddOne

Member
New episode today:
Season 2: episode 6 "By Fire"

After Bridgit Pike rejoins her brothers, a new spark of courage ignites within her, as she chooses to take control of her future. Meanwhile, Kringle and Nygma’s relationship will take a new step and Penguin and Galavan continue to battle for control of Gotham City’s underworld.
Click to expand...
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
Razgriz-Specter said:
How did this so easily jump The Flash which was/is amazing?
im easily more entertained and excited by this this season than anything else on atm.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Somehow Gotham has managed to jump from #3 on my DCTV tier list (After Flash and Arrow) to #1.

This season has just been really fun to watch. I look forward to watching it every week.
 
C

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
I'd vote for Galavan. We get to see Bruce and his new love interest this episode?
 
C

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
"For the record, all y'all suck."
Leaves an entire cage of women to continue being sold.
 
L

Luigi87

Member
I want to suspend my disbelief, but I find it hard to believe that everyone in that sex trade building wouldn't be packing heat.
 
C

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
Luigi87 said:
I want to suspend my disbelief, but I find it hard to believe that everyone in that sex trade building wouldn't be packing heat.
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same thing. The entire premise of the scene was kind of flaky too. So I'll just let it go.
 
D

Desean101

Banned
Luigi87 said:
I want to suspend my disbelief, but I find it hard to believe that everyone in that sex trade building wouldn't be packing heat.
Click to expand...

Not everyone if it was normal place. You would be surprised how most pimps and such are unarmed. Physical Violence is a better deterrence in that line of work cause Guns can be taken away. My pops used to be a cop for the city and told me a few stories of sex rings they used to buss back in the early 90's. unarmed mostly, just beat the girls and broke their wills most of the time.
 
C

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
"Silver called?"
*Sucker pawnched*
Well I'm excited for the rest of the episode.
This Kringle and Nygma thing is gonna go places.
 
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