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Greece accepts third bailout deal. Tsipras facing rebellion in his own party.

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E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
http://www.theguardian.com/business...rliament-still-thrashing-out-rescue-deal-vote

After a tumultuous, often ill-tempered and at times surreal all-night debate, Greek MPs voted early on Friday to approve a new multibillion euro bailout deal aimed at keeping their debt-stricken country afloat.

But a fierce rebellion in the ranks of his leftist Syriza party saw prime minister Alexis Tsipras fall short of the 120 votes he would need to survive a censure motion, leading to speculation he would call a confidence vote next week and snap elections as early as next month.

More than 40 Syriza hardliners, including controversial former finance minister Yannis Varoufakis, failed to toe the party line, angry at the punishing terms of the €85bn (£60bn) package and what they said was a sell-out of the party’s principles and a betrayal of its promises.
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The prime minister told MPs before the vote that the rescue package was a “necessary choice” for the nation, saying it faced a battle to avert the threat of a bridge loan - which he called a return to a “crisis without end” - that Greece may be offered instead of a full-blown bailout.

The draft bailout must now be approved by other eurozone member states at a meeting of finance ministers in Brussels on Friday afternoon, and ratified by national parliaments in a number of countries – including Germany, which remains sceptical – before a first tranche can be disbursed allowing Greece to make a crucial €3.2bn payment to the European Central Bank due on 20 August.
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Germany, the biggest single contributor to Greece’s two previous bailouts, cautioned on Wednesday that eurozone support for the package – which includes more tough spending cuts and tax hikes and surrenders unprecedented powers over large areas of Greek economic and social policymaking to the country’s international creditors – was not yet guaranteed.

“Germany isn’t the only country that is still asking questions at the moment,” deputy finance minister Jens Spahn said, pointing in particular to the issues of International Monetary Fund support for the deal and concerns about a planned privatisation fund to sell off Greek state-owned property.

Germany has repeatedly signalled it might prefer to back a bridging loan to help Greece meet its ECB payment rather than agree to an imperfect longer-term deal that might not work – a solution Athens is unwilling to accept.
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Despite the skepticism from the creditor's side, it looks like the can has been finally kicked down the road once again. Tsipras will likely have to face new elections.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
Germany and the eurozone's actions would seem like comedy at this point if their ignorance didn't have such dire consequences for so many.
 
A

alexandros

Banned
Mr. Pointy said:
The more things change...

If there's another election, Syriza are getting wiped the fuck out.
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It partly depends on when the elections will take place. If it's in September Syriza will retain the lead, as the full brunt of the austerity measures will be felt later during the year. Plus Tsipras doesn't really have any sort of meaningful opposition. New Democracy has a temporary president and it will have many months of internal strife, Potami is an insignificant political force, Pasok is in disarray and any new politicial party born out of the extremists and drachma proponents of Syriza is extremely unlikely to gain any meaningful popularity.
 
J

Jack Remington

Banned
They should have combined the most sensible reforms with a simple print and reset strategy.

ECB prints euros to buy up the majority of the outstanding debt, holds it on its balance sheet as a fictional accounting identity, and we're done. It wouldn't really be any different from QE that the Fed is doing.

Instead they're going to shrink Greece's GDP with excessive austerity, because morals.
 
1

1871

Member
alexandros said:
It partly depends on when the elections will take place. If it's in September Syriza will retain the lead, as the full brunt of the austerity measures will be felt later during the year. Plus Tsipras doesn't really have any sort of meaningful opposition. New Democracy has a temporary president and it will have many months of internal strife, Potami is an insignificant political force, Pasok is in disarray and any new politicial party born out of the extremists and drachma proponents of Syriza is extremely unlikely to gain any meaningful popularity.
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Your vocabulary is your own (and your analysis too, which completely forgets the far-right), but the minority of Syriza could try to do something with Antarsya.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Jack Remington said:
ECB prints euros to buy up the majority of the outstanding debt, holds it on its balance sheet as a fictional accounting identity, and we're done. It wouldn't really be any different from QE that the Fed is doing.
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Germany would never accept that. Back when the Euro was introduced, the German electorate was promised that no Eurozone state would ever have to be responsible for the debts of another state. This paradigm is reflected in the Eurozone contracts. That's why Germany is so adamant in rejecting debt cuts, or Euro bonds, or devaluing the Euro to pay off debts. That's also why the debt is being managed with loans that Greece will never be able to pay back: it allows the Eurozone to avoid to set a precedent, since technically Greece's debt remains in Greece's budget. Germany in particular does not want to set a legal precedent that could potentially lead to more movement of debt from weaker economies to Germany in the future. In this context, it doesn't even matter what is best for Greece. Germany is looking at its long-term interests here.
 
J

Jack Remington

Banned
ElTorro said:
Germany would never accept that. Back when the Euro was introduced, the German electorate was promised that no Eurozone state would ever have to be responsible for the debts of another state. This paradigm is reflected in the Eurozone contracts. That's why Germany is so adamant in rejecting debt cuts, or Euro bonds, or devaluing the Euro to pay off debts. That's also why the debt is being managed with loans that Greece will never be able to pay back: it allows the Eurozone to avoid to set a precedent, since technically Greece's debt remains in Greece's budget. Germany in particular does not want to set a legal precedent that could potentially lead to more movement of debt from weaker economies to Germany in the future. In this context, it doesn't even matter what is best for Greece. Germany is looking at its long-term interests here.
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It's not even about what's best for Greece. It's what's best for the Eurozone as a whole. A contracting Greek economy is not good for the Eurozone.

The print and reset strategy wouldn't make any Eurozone state responsible for Greece's debt, no more than quantitative easing results in me as a US taxpayer paying for the assets the Fed is purchasing.

Germany, and perhaps the Eurozone as a whole, is stuck in an outdated concept of what money actually is.
 
Vlodril

Vlodril

Member
Jack Remington said:
It's not even about what's best for Greece. It's what's best for the Eurozone as a whole. A contracting Greek economy is not good for the Eurozone.

The print and reset strategy wouldn't make any Eurozone state responsible for Greece's debt, no more than quantitative easing results in me as a US taxpayer paying for the assets the Fed is purchasing.

Germany, and perhaps the Eurozone as a whole, is stuck in an outdated concept of what money actually is.
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No one cares because the matter was not even discussed financially (since it makes 0 sense. to noone) but only politically. So yea europe is kinda fucked.

It will be interesting to see how long they think they can kick the can down the road (which i am guessing is not very long) and what will actually happen when the shit do hit the fan.
 
A

alexandros

Banned
1871 said:
Your vocabulary is your own (and your analysis too, which completely forgets the far-right), but the minority of Syriza could try to do something with Antarsya.
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The Golden Dawn can't win a general election, its supporters are not that many in the grand scheme of things. As for the Syriza minority and Antarsya, I do not believe for a second that they will amass any significant popular support with a pro-drachma agenda.
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
It'd be pretty mad if one of the national legislatures torpedoed the deal. Syriza am dead and for no reason. Unlikely but not impossible.
 
J

Jack Remington

Banned
Vlodril said:
No one cares because the matter was not even discussed financially (since it makes 0 sense. to noone) but only politically. So yea europe is kinda fucked.

It will be interesting to see how long they think they can kick the can down the road (which i am guessing is not very long) and what will actually happen when the shit do hit the fan.
Click to expand...

That interview from the finance minister about how he'd try to talk economics and the other European leaders would just go blank was really depressing.

It's like in this whole ordeal, the only thing that matters is good old-fashioned Protestant moral sensibilities. Fuck macroeconomics, right?
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
darkwing said:
wait, so the referendum was meaningless?
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It kinda was meaningless before it was even held.

But yes, Tsipras folded on basically everything he promised just a few days later, after the Eurozone predictably remained unimpressed.

f8Ng3rg.png
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
wsippel said:
Politicians get elected for four years. Many are limited to two terms. Even if they had any long term vision, they have no reason to give a fuck.
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I know what are the reasons. That didn't stop some statesmen and stateswomen from appearing from time to time. Now it just seems that we're on a big break from that. At the time when Europe needed it the most after WW II, maybe.

We'll be back for more of this in 3-4 years.
 
S

segasonic

Member
Jack Remington said:
It's not even about what's best for Greece. It's what's best for the Eurozone as a whole. A contracting Greek economy is not good for the Eurozone.

The print and reset strategy wouldn't make any Eurozone state responsible for Greece's debt, no more than quantitative easing results in me as a US taxpayer paying for the assets the Fed is purchasing.

Germany, and perhaps the Eurozone as a whole, is stuck in an outdated concept of what money actually is.
Click to expand...

Greece is tiny. Whether their economy is doing well or not is not really important for the EU. If Spain, Italy or France were fucked up as much as Greece however, EU as a whole is fucked. That's why a precedence must not be set.
 
F

FlyingSaucer

Banned
It's a shame that Tsipras folded - I do think that Varouf's "Plan B" and dept repudiation are the only possible solutions for Greece - but to be fair, what other choice did he have if he wasn't willing to antagonize the whole union and a large part of his people ? The bloody ECB was waging financial war on his country's economy.

Europe, as it exists today, is the problem. We are in state of bankruptcy - of ideas but also humanly, morally, and soon financially.
 
K

KHarvey16

Member
segasonic said:
Greece is tiny. Whether their economy is doing well or not is not really important for the EU. If Spain, Italy or France were fucked up as much as Greece however, EU as a whole is fucked. That's why a precedence must not be set.
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The precedent of fixing member's economies?
 
Z

zero shift

Banned
Again the only parties that state that they will not accept any reasonable deal from the EU are communists and nazis. Let that sink in for a second. If Syriza loses support there is a chance that...

Konka said:
Greece should really just default and bail out of the Euro. This pussyfooting is ridiculous.
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Exactly.
 
petran79

petran79

Banned
segasonic said:
Greece is tiny. Whether their economy is doing well or not is not really important for the EU. If Spain, Italy or France were fucked up as much as Greece however, EU as a whole is fucked. That's why a precedence must not be set.
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Greece is more important as a stability and peace force in the Balkans.
Between Turkey's military coups, Yugoslavian Civil Wars, Bulgaria's economic collapse, Albanian and Northwestern Macedonian armed conflicts and Romania's execution of Ceaușescu, Greece had it the best. You would not want to see Greece meddle in those affairs. Last time they did it was in the Balkan Wars and it did not end well, leading to WWI
 
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