IMF is doing a 180, saving face more than anything. Jumping off the wagon after completing a few laps.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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IMF is doing a 180, saving face more than anything. Jumping off the wagon after completing a few laps.
Melon Husk
Member
Well, we'll see if they offer debt relief for the first time ever.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If I was Tsipras I would just default, without announcement, just as a fuck you.
Unbelievable.
Other countries just don't care so they let Germany to run the UE, even if Germany dosn't really want to run the UE, but they see it a good way to keep their interest relevant instead of the Union. (specially Spain, which it's goverment has been a puppet of Merkel since it's arrival to the power)
Unbelievable.
Other countries just don't care so they let Germany to run the UE, even if Germany dosn't really want to run the UE, but they see it a good way to keep their interest relevant instead of the Union. (specially Spain, which it's goverment has been a puppet of Merkel since it's arrival to the power)
PdotMichael
Banned
Quite a large list of other countries for "Germany decides". Especially you only need 80% in normal cases.
And "favour of helping" is quite pushing the actual facts.
Summary:
- France says new proposals are great but no one cares
- Germany, the Netherlands and others don't trust Greece
- Greek proposals not enough, say most
- Finland says Nein or the government dissovles
- Germany: "I don't want a GrexOH LOOK AT THAT I just found a proposal about a temporary Grexit in my pocket!"
- France says new proposals are great but no one cares
- Germany, the Netherlands and others don't trust Greece
- Greek proposals not enough, say most
- Finland says Nein or the government dissovles
- Germany: "I don't want a GrexOH LOOK AT THAT I just found a proposal about a temporary Grexit in my pocket!"
hydrophilic attack
Member
Italy tells Germany to grow up.
That's supposed to happen tomorrow so for now it's just fan fiction.
Believe.
hydrophilic attack
Member
I am disappointed with my government (Finland). Apparently the nationalist party gave an ultimatum, they threatened to leave the coalition if any kind of leniency is given to Greece.
So Finland will veto any proposal and as a result there can be no compromise regardless what Germany or any other country presents.
It is over....
It is not a case of giving more money to Greece. I don't believe this is a wise move politically. For some reason our current government wants to constantly be in the limelight, be it OSCE and Russia or these negotations.
So Finland will veto any proposal and as a result there can be no compromise regardless what Germany or any other country presents.
It is over....
It is not a case of giving more money to Greece. I don't believe this is a wise move politically. For some reason our current government wants to constantly be in the limelight, be it OSCE and Russia or these negotations.
nature boy
Member
Journalists are saying it's a negotiation tactic. Finland will align with Germany.
Perfect reply.
I hate it that Finns are playing petty internal politics by counting on the 85%. And the supporters of the True Finns lap it all up.
Edit: and as a negotiation tactic, Greece has pretty much grabbed it's ankles anyway. Or maybe the guys who negotiated the Versailles treaty also walked home feeling like a million dollars with their brilliant tactics (no Greece will not start a WW3 but I am not happy seeing the European dream fracture like this, especially with Russia turning so aggressive).
Perhaps, but then we will have new elections, because the nationalists will not accept any kind of compromise. Or they can but it would be political suicide after all this rhetoric.
Can't entirely blame them for not being willing to spend another round of tens of billions of Euros lightly.
Especially not after all the stunts the current Greek government has pulled off.
Makes no sense to do that just to find yourself in the very same situation a few months later.
Coriolanus
Banned
About five years and several extensions and packages too late to start bitching about that.
Could always let the ECB act like a central bank, tho.
Might as well just end the experiment right now if that is the case. The only way this survives is if this becomes a monetary and fiscal union and fiscal union means transfer payments to poorer nations.
Coriolanus
Banned
Would be also bound for failure without a proper political union, so, really, goodluckwifdat.
I mean, i'm borderline going "y'know, the USSR kinda did a whole lot of things that made sense, as far as realpolitik was concerned".
Alabamaman
Banned
So proud of my country right now. If majority vote goes through, we should leave the Euro.
It's already fucked up if you read the proposition
Flying Toaster
Member
I have been reading this from the start, I appreciate the thread and it is very informative.
As an American I have stayed out of saying anything because I really cannot contribute in a way that is productive.
With that said. The people in this thread "Europeans" how hard would it actually be to use this issue with Greece and the creditors as a starting point to unify the EU in a way to fairly stabilize both the smaller countries and larger ones economically (Germany is built much better to handle things of this nature than say Greece as their economies are completely different).
I understand the concept that many in Europe view themselves as citizens of their own country before being "Europeans" but this instance with Greece and later down the line Spain and others shows that there needs to be a more unified Europe in dealing with economic situations like this.
Forgive my ignorance in advance.
I am just curious is this situation could lead to possibly in the future trying to unify the EU as a more stable fair economy than it already is. And in no way do I mean that people should be following the American system. This is just a question not a suggestion.
As an American I have stayed out of saying anything because I really cannot contribute in a way that is productive.
With that said. The people in this thread "Europeans" how hard would it actually be to use this issue with Greece and the creditors as a starting point to unify the EU in a way to fairly stabilize both the smaller countries and larger ones economically (Germany is built much better to handle things of this nature than say Greece as their economies are completely different).
I understand the concept that many in Europe view themselves as citizens of their own country before being "Europeans" but this instance with Greece and later down the line Spain and others shows that there needs to be a more unified Europe in dealing with economic situations like this.
Forgive my ignorance in advance.
I am just curious is this situation could lead to possibly in the future trying to unify the EU as a more stable fair economy than it already is. And in no way do I mean that people should be following the American system. This is just a question not a suggestion.
My words exactly!
Member
Hahaha absolutely pathetic, even the most euro-lust person can see that the whole thing is rigged. The ''Germany satellites'' were expected to align with whatever Schauble proposed anyway.
GTFO Hellas, out of the wolfpack. Hope to see the US reaction to this.
It's time to make right of what has been destroyed since the 80's till today.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
In any case, all this made the union and stabilizing the north and south even more difficult. A true Union hasn't been more far than these days.
I mean, just look at Euro bonds.
If we can't do that, how are we supposed to become the USE?
This crisis has, in my opinion, indeed shown that Europe needs to delegate more authority to the European level and give up more national independence if it wants to continue the project of ongoing European integration successfully. However, the mood among the European electorate would absolutely not allow such steps to be taken right now. In that sense, the crisis has made its own long-term solution more improbable, despite demonstrating that that's the way forward if you really want an integrated Europe.
Before Europeans don't identify as Europeans first and foremost, if they ever will, such things are just not realistic.
Hahaha absolutely pathetic, even the most euro-lust person can see that the whole thing is rigged. The ''Germany satellites'' were expected to align with whatever Schauble proposed anyway.
GTFO Hellas, out of the wolfpack. Hope to see the US reaction to this.
It's time to make right of what has been destroyed since the 80's till today.
What exactly is Merkel mad about, if this is true?? What is wrong about France helping Greece draft documents?
Isn't likely to impact the US much, unless Russia suddenly moves in.
Alabamaman
Banned
We shouldn't, we like being independent in Finland. You can't compare USA and Europe.
Well if we end up in a Eurozone contagion mess, it's curtains to global growth for the next years especially with the Chinese wobbles...
Well you know nationalism got in the way. This whole crisis with Greece has shown us that misplaced nationalism is a dangerous thing.
PdotMichael
Banned
Even before the crisis. For the most time people voted against further European integration - see the several referendums.
The crisis maybe just make it even more obvious that the EU top-bottom approach reached its limits.
My words exactly!
Member
It was obvious that this whole thing is "Germany and the others". The above, and the way Schauble even joked about Greece and Puerto Rico as if it was his back yard to sell is morbidly evidential as to how they operate. I want my country as far away from these twisted old minds as far possible please.
Hahaha absolutely pathetic, even the most euro-lust person can see that the whole thing is rigged. The ''Germany satellites'' were expected to align with whatever Schauble proposed anyway.
GTFO Hellas, out of the wolfpack. Hope to see the US reaction to this.
It's time to make right of what has been destroyed since the 80's till today.
What is the US supposed to do? Strategicly Germany is far too important to do anything. Especially with how bad German-US relations are at the moment.
I would love a unified Europe, but he countries of Europe barely can manage to keep themselves together. Do you know whick kind extremisn has the most victims in Europe? It's seperatists and that's even without what's happening in Ukraine. The idea is nice, but the EU itself is already a small miracle, no way all these countries with theirclong history and cultures could unite just like that.
I'm not saying we should become USE. I like the Europe of today but every economist will tell you that the Euro is bat shit insane and Germany's proposal for a temporary Grexit is even more insane.
Coriolanus
Banned
My words exactly!
Member
Don't think in financial terms only. Anyway, it will be interesting to say the least... What goes around comes around.
PdotMichael
Banned
Wasn't a Grexit like the best idea here just a few days ago?
It's not cool when Germany wants it.
Yes, a Grexit and therefore an independent currency is the right way to go. But telling the markets "don't worry about the Euro, we'll just throw the weak cointries out and let them back in as we see fit" is the opposite of generating trust.
To be clear, for the people of Greece a debt cut, reforms and milder austerity would be the best way but no chance getting that because of political reasons.
Flying Toaster
Member
I appreciate the responses. I don't think this is going to be easy at any rate. Just look at America and how separated Americans are only looking at the two party system and their huge chasm of differences.
Thanks for taking the time to give some insight.
Alabamaman
Banned
That's why the Euro needs to die. European countries are so vastly different that one currency will never work.
I don't think realpolitk makes much sense, at least when people stress political power over economic power. And I feel that a lot of people who talk about realpolitik mean political power.
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