Halo |OT11| Forward Unto Dong

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Stream's done for the night! Thanks for joining in everyone (yes, even Barlow Roll...), was some good times.

Also, if you're not following it, you should be, jerks.
 
Skill matching works the same, it's just that the game is currently running instead of showing a voting screen first.

I imagine hosting choices work like this:

- you're more likely to get host if you stay in games
- if you game hop a lot in DIDO, you're probably going to be marked as avoided for hosting, even with a good connection
 
So are we now just assuming that we're not going to get a final world from Halo.xbox.com on the use of skill based matchmaking in this game?
 
SatansReverence said:
Don't even...

I have never experienced input delays dependent on pings in any other online co-op game I have ever played.
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You either missed my 'substantial AI' keyword or have gotten host a lot more in other games, or those games had less possible players in the co-op session. If you're always host in Anniversary, then the game is essentially flawless for you. If you're the client, the game's enjoyment factor lies entirely on the networking conditions.

As an aside, most if not all RTSes are lockstep. Starcraft 2 is the most recent big one. Halo Wars? Lockstep. You just feel it less there since you're not directly controlling the units..

Lockstep + input delay is not a problem exclusive to Halo and it's not because Bungie was lazy. It was the best solution they could use for what they had.

What they CAN do is either require minimum latency/bandwidth tests to even use campaign engine mode playlists, or become super strict about latency when matching you with other players. There's match search times and match availability implications behind doing that, though.
 
FyreWulff said:
Skill matching works the same, it's just that the game is currently running instead of showing a voting screen first.

I imagine hosting choices work like this:

- you're more likely to get host if you stay in games
- if you game hop a lot in DIDO, you're probably going to be marked as avoided for hosting, even with a good connection
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Right but if you were between, say, a 47 and a 50 in Halo 3, MM would occasionally take up to 3 or so minutes to find a game with all players at those skill ranges. Three minutes in a game where two of four players have dropped is long enough for the full team to pull away to the victory. If the game always takes less than three or so minutes to find replacements of an appropriate skill level then I find it difficult to believe it will be prioritising skill matching as much as ranked Halo 3 or the Arena.
 
The Henery said:
Right but if you were between, say, a 47 and a 50 in Halo 3, MM would occasionally take up to 3 or so minutes to find a game with all players at those skill ranges. Three minutes in a game where two of four players have dropped is long enough for the full team to pull away to the victory. If the game always takes less than three or so minutes to find replacements of an appropriate skill level then I find it difficult to believe it will be prioritising skill matching as much as ranked Halo 3 or the Arena.
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True, not sure how they'll deal with that. I imagine they have the knobs and levers to tweak that though. In theory, the upper levels should have more people willing to stay in games though, so it might work out?
 
FyreWulff said:
You either missed my 'substantial AI' keyword or have gotten host a lot more in other games, or those games had less possible players in the co-op session. If you're always host in Anniversary, then the game is essentially flawless for you. If you're the client, the game's enjoyment factor lies entirely on the networking conditions.

As an aside, most if not all RTSes are lockstep. Starcraft 2 is the most recent big one. Halo Wars? Lockstep. You just feel it less there since you're not directly controlling the units..

Lockstep + input delay is not a problem exclusive to Halo and it's not because Bungie was lazy. It was the best solution they could use for what they had.
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Comparing RTS games to FPS games... lol. And neither of those games have the players inputs delayed, the registration is what is delayed which is perfectly understandable. How many people do you think would play Starcraft online if their mouse and map movements were well behind their inputs...

And I can play co-op modes in CoD which have "substantial" numbers of A.I on a 10ms ping, a 50ms ping or a 300ms ping and have absolutely no problems with button inputs or aiming inputs. Bungies "solution" is terrible, stop trying to defend it.

FyreWulff said:
What they CAN do is either require minimum latency/bandwidth tests to even use campaign engine mode playlists, or become super strict about latency when matching you with other players. There's match search times and match availability implications behind doing that, though.
Click to expand...

They already do limit pings for firefight/campaign matchmaking. Anything above 0ms makes the game far less responsive and thus less enjoyable. The only time this netcode is fine is in a systemlink environment.
 
SatansReverence said:
Comparing RTS games to FPS games... lol. And neither of those games have the players inputs delayed, the registration is what is delayed which is perfectly understandable. How many people do you think would play Starcraft online if their mouse and map movements were well behind their inputs...
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Uh, yes they do. And when the lag gets bad, you'll see major delays between when you order a unit somewhere and when it actually acknowledges it. There's no need to network your actual mouse cursor itself, so it's not affected by latency. In an FPS, your reticule is your 'cursor' and is where your player is actually pointing towards in the simulation, so it needs to be networked. I just brought that up as an aside though.

And I can play co-op modes in CoD which have "substantial" numbers of A.I on a 10ms ping, a 50ms ping or a 300ms ping and have absolutely no problems with button inputs or aiming inputs. Bungies "solution" is terrible, stop trying to defend it.
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CoD's network AI is not substantial nor has to deal with the complexities or amount of AI that Halo does. Actually count the active AI you see in one scene in the game without triggering a new encounter. Rewatching campaign CoD encounters, I never can seem to count above 5-6. Now go play Reach and notice how many AI are present in a single continous encounter, loaded up at once, or how many will be spawned in at one time in Firefight. Looking at video real quick (I can't get on the Xbox right now), the wraith encounter on Pillar of autumn (right after the mongoose jump) has around 25 active AI at once.


They already do limit pings for firefight/campaign matchmaking. Anything above 0ms makes the game far less responsive and thus less enjoyable. The only time this netcode is fine is in a systemlink environment.
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You can't even get 0ms on LAN in terms of input. You still get dropped packets on LAN and would be sending packets faster than the engine is actually capable of encoding, sending, then decoding them. You have a minimum of 3 frames of latency regardless of the connection, LAN is just 99% consistent so you notice it much less. Multi has 1 frame of latency minimum.
 
FyreWulff said:
Uh, yes they do. And when the lag gets bad, you'll see major delays between when you order a unit somewhere and when it actually acknowledges it. There's no need to network your actual mouse cursor itself, so it's not affected by latency. In an FPS, your reticule is your 'cursor' and is where your player is actually pointing towards in the simulation, so it needs to be networked. I just brought that up as an aside though.
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Heh, beat me to the punch.
In FPS games, the camera angle must be synchronized for all clients.
In RTS games it would only be used for anti-cheat measures by the host, to verify an input is valid.


FyreWulff said:
CoD's network AI is not substantial nor has to deal with the complexities or amount of AI that Halo does. Actually count the active AI you see in one scene in the game without triggering a new encounter. Rewatching campaign CoD encounters, I never can seem to count above 5-6. Now go play Reach and notice how many AI are present in a single continous encounter, loaded up at once, or how many will be spawned in at one time in Firefight. Looking at video real quick (I can't get on the Xbox right now), the wraith encounter on Pillar of autumn (right after the mongoose jump) has around 25 active AI at once.
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As you said earlier, the AI doesn't matter for networking, that is the whole point of using the networking model they do.
The thing that COD does to help networking is limit the amount of entities that need to be networked.
All of the enemies in Halo shoot projectile weapons. Almost all of the weapons used in COD are hitscan, besides launchers and thrown equipment.
Plus, all of the Infinity Ward games only have two player co-op max. Treyarch does four person zombies.
 
Conor 419 said:
So are we now just assuming that we're not going to get a final world from Halo.xbox.com on the use of skill based matchmaking in this game?
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Frankie has repeatedly said matchmaking relies more heavily on skill-based matching than reach. If you're talking about ranks then we don't know, come on now.

Ranks =/= skill-based matchmaking
 
Overdoziz said:
If the input lag is still in co-op then they shouldn't have spend so much resources on creating Spartan Ops.
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They seem to have put plenty of emphasis on SpartanOps, so they must have put some better tech behind it right?

That is why I missed having a Beta for Halo 4, just to try and get some of those networking issues sorted. Just showing and testing LAN footage just ain't enough.
 
GodfatherX said:
just finished my halo 2 play through, I had forgotten how easy Tarturus is to kill...kinda anti-climatic. This is probably my 7th or so time playing Halo 2's campaign, but this is the only time I have actually enjoyed the story. Still not a fan of the gravemind though.


Awesome dat title screen music and UI is still amazing 8 years later
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I remember my original Halo 2 disc was glitched somehow, so at the Tartarus fight, Johnson would only fire 2 Beam Rifle shots instead of 3. Made legendary a real pain, had to bring in a Beam Rifle myself and hit him the third time with it to drop his shields. Meant I couldn't use the dual plasma rifles on him which made the fight painfully slow. Although I did discover that the Covenant Carbine can drop his shield as well after 2 Beam Rifle shots.

Halo 2 legendary taught me many things...war is hell.
 
Overdoziz said:
If the input lag is still in co-op then they shouldn't have spend so much resources on creating Spartan Ops.
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When social experiences are frustrating, people are sad.
When people are sad, they don't want to talk about it.
When they don't want to talk about it, water cooler moments aren't about Spartan Ops.
When water cooler moments aren't about Spartan Ops, David Ellis sheds a tear.
When David Ellis sheds a tear, a Moa dies.

Don't be frustrating.
 
XBL is being an absolute pain since the dashboard update. Difficulties signing onto XBL have never been so common. Let's hope this is not a problem in a weeks time.
 
bobs99 ... said:
If Spops is as story driven as I hope it is - I can see myself soloing the missions first anyway.
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Mission: Investigate this Forerunner site with your squad.
Bobs: Actually, like, it's just me today fellas.
Mission: Defend the UNSC data with your squad.
Bobs: Nah, it's cool. I actually just wanted to do this on my own you see.
Mission: Good job team, the data is safe.
Bobs: ..... Go me!
 
Bungie sucks! Don't try to convince me with your "facts".

That being said, input delay is one of the worst things you can have in an action game. I would expect that Bungie is using the opportunity of starting a new franchise to build a game that won't have it.
 
HiredN00bs said:
Bungie sucks! Don't try to convince me with your "facts".

That being said, input delay is one of the worst things you can have in an action game. I would expect that Bungie is using the opportunity of starting a new franchise to build a game that won't have it.
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You suck, Bungie the best mayne.
 
Hydranockz said:
XBL is being an absolute pain since the dashboard update. Difficulties signing onto XBL have never been so common. Let's hope this is not a problem in a weeks time.
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Problems I have:

- Not connecting to XBL automatically
- Marketplace, Apps, Music etc. are not available all the time
- Notifications are not being shown properly
- NAT changing from "open", "moderate" and "closed"
- Xbox freezes more often
- Party's crashing without a reason

Hope they fix this problems soon, because it is really a pain, like you said.
 
Hydranockz said:
Mission: Investigate this Forerunner site with your squad.
Bobs: Actually, like, it's just me today fellas.
Mission: Defend the UNSC data with your squad.
Bobs: Nah, it's cool. I actually just wanted to do this on my own you see.
Mission: Good job team, the data is safe.
Bobs: ..... Go me!
Click to expand...

Mission: Investigate this Forerunner si...
Elzar: LOLOLOL
Bobs: Hey Elzar shut up mission was saying something.
Oddone:Dont talk about my...
Mission: ...SC Dat...
Oddone: ...Wife like that.
Bobs: Shut up Shut up Shut up
Hydra: lol! Haha he pissed.
Mission: Mission over well done guys.
Bobs: Xand did you really just go complete the mission without us?
Xand: How the hell do we have 5 people in here anyway?
 
Overdoziz said:
If the input lag is still in co-op then they shouldn't have spend so much resources on creating Spartan Ops.
Click to expand...

Bingo. It doesn't matter how awesome you create an experience for a player if there is still a horrendous connection problem when trying to play with friends, it's not enjoyable.
 
Just finished Halo CEA coop on Legendary over Live. Lag really isn't that much of a problem if both people have good connections.

My goal is to get through the entire series before Halo 4 (Hopefully finishing Halo 3 November 5th). Doing whatever I can on coop because it's more fun that way.
Halo Reach coop Legendary - Done
Halo CEA coop Legendary - Done
Halo 2 Solo Heroic (and not Legendary because I'm a pussy) - In progress
Halo 3 ODST coop Legendary - In progress
Halo 3 - Not yet started
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Got quite a bit of playing to get through, but if I play a few hours every night between now and Halo 4, I should get the rest done.
 
Skel1ingt0n said:
1) Sorry, didn't know this was something the community was following - but I just went back to the campaign and hit start - nothing to record your campaign or what just happened, and nothing to hint that you can from what I see.

2) About on par with Reach. Rocks look better, and lighting is doing a lot of favors. But unquestionably, certain objects in the environment are far from spectacular.
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Thank you for the confirmation about theatre. I was hoping that someone was just trolling us, but oh well I guess.

As for the textures... I half expected as much. As long as they don't look terrible it doesn't bother me really.

Edit. Sorry about double post.
 
TheOddOne said:
My guess the rewritten multiplayer code also applies to the co-op, hopefully.
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It may be better but I'd still expect the input lag. It's how they have to do it to make sure that the experience remains the same between all 4 players.

There are too many variances that could occur in co-op if they used the multiplayer net code.
 
i still don't "get" SpOps... we have co-op campaign, now we have a second (watered down) campaign like experience to go through? and this replaces firefight, a mode designed for crazy replayability and playing with the ai sandbox. why? personally, i'd MUCH rather have ODST style firefight. hell, combine the best of both worlds and make it ODST style firefight with new "stages" downloadable each week.
 
op_ivy said:
i still don't "get" SpOps... we have co-op campaign, now we have a second (watered down) campaign like experience to go through? and this replaces firefight, a mode designed for crazy replayability and playing with the ai sandbox. why? personally, i'd MUCH rather have ODST style firefight. hell, combine the best of both worlds and make it ODST style firefight with new "stages" downloadable each week.
Click to expand...

For all we know there could be multiple Firefight type missions through Spop's - so it may still scratch that itch.


Personally I think Spartan Ops has the potential to be really unique - the Spec Ops stuff in MW2 was really fun because they had a chance to just go crazy and think up weird and wonderful missions that would never fit into any realistic story. I really hope Spops isnt too grounded in the fiction and instead is just an assortment of really fun missions they couldn't fit into the narrative.
 
op_ivy said:
i still don't "get" SpOps... we have co-op campaign, now we have a second (watered down) campaign like experience to go through? and this replaces firefight, a mode designed for crazy replayability and playing with the ai sandbox. why? personally, i'd MUCH rather have ODST style firefight. hell, combine the best of both worlds and make it ODST style firefight with new "stages" downloadable each week.
Click to expand...

They could really do anything with the spops platform, like making an episode that uses MP maps or custom environments to create missions that are enemies just repeatedly dropping down as they do in FF. There wouldn't be any customization though, but they could do something like ODST's firefight.
 
Considering how watered down Reach's firefight felt, even with all its options, compared to ODST's FF, I'm happy to get something new. Also, I'm hoping having Spartan Ops for the Firefight-style missions will mean that the Halo 4 campaign proper doesn't have as many of them--with a few exceptions, they usually felt out of place and poor in the Reach campaign (when they appeared in ODST they were better done; see, ONI Alpha Site.)
 
Even if Spartan Ops has Firefight type missions, there's little incentive to revisit them in that way without scoring. Scoring is gone, isn't it?
 
Fuchsdh said:
Considering how watered down Reach's firefight felt, even with all its options, compared to ODST's FF, I'm happy to get something new. Also, I'm hoping having Spartan Ops for the Firefight-style missions will mean that the Halo 4 campaign proper doesn't have as many of them--with a few exceptions, they usually felt out of place and poor in the Reach campaign (when they appeared in ODST they were better done; see, ONI Alpha Site.)
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That's because they were completely different. No stamina gauge, no sprint, no armor abilities, no ability to board vehicles, etc.. You were near handicapped in many cases for ODST.
 
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