I understand it too, but I do think there are things that need rebalancing within Reach. There are two areas here, one is a suite of expanded settings to emulate a more 'classic' experience, and the other are things that within Reach's gameplay need adjusting. "Need" is a subjective term, but I do think there is widespread concensus on the need to rebalance the Banshee, for example. And I would like to see that made universal, not segregated into a set of playlists.Dax01 said:
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Halo: Reach |OT5| A Monument to All Our Sins
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Man I really hope the TU adds this type of Armor Lock
:troll
EDIT: On a serious note, we should play this map for the next customs, this actually looks better than all other invasion map including the ones on disc.
:troll
EDIT: On a serious note, we should play this map for the next customs, this actually looks better than all other invasion map including the ones on disc.
Yes, denying that things like the Banshee are broken is just backwards thinking. Who was that btb troll? Gamesager? If you think Objective holding and incidental donging is bad, you're just blind to people that are purposely abusing broken assets in the game.GhaleonEB said:
If things need to be fixed, fix them. Don't fix shit that isn't broken, yes but there are broken components to Reach. Not changing that out of respect to Bungie and their designers will just mean that the problems will keep stagnating and not appease people that want to enjoy the game.
Beyond game changes, there are also playlist changes that need to be accounted for.
As it stands now, I can't play my favorite past playlist, BTB, without it feeling like work in Reach. Hemo Flag turns into Slayer Unlimited without falter. Wayont needs to removed; the framerate in the bases drops into the low 20s, and the gameplay of the map is just boring. I believe assault arming has been fixed, that's good. But honestly most of it just comes down to maps.
What is going to happen to Community Cartographers? I have no idea of the selection process in there, but is it actually based on playtesting maps before they get placed into MM, or is it just from certain communities pushing certain maps? In my areas of Reach I have seen more junk come out of it than good. This leads me to believe the latter. I understand the complexities of it all, but however it worked didn't actually work. Maps with bad framerates and poor gameplay were not filtered out and tested on multiple gametypes. Poor design is left intact out of respect of their authors when it could be fixed by a more experienced designer and let it help the gameplay of the map. Maps can't just be added in for the sake of getting community stuff out into mm, they have to be added in where they are needed. No more non-specific maps. Why be scared of returning to the H2 style of maps designed around a designated playstyle? This results in a better experience in their respective gametypes while preventing it from being a detractor in others. Are Payload maps in TF2 used as Deathmatch arenas? No, because that is just absurd. Did headlong accel at Team Slayer? No, because it is an assymetric objective map at heart. But because that is what is what is designed for, that is what it is known for as being one of the best maps in Halo. The same can be said for many of the maps in H2. So why let in that sub-par experience just so that there is more choices? Quantity is the ruination of quality.
The Librarian
Banned
Yeah. Fair point. There's definitely different degrees to which they can take this.GhaleonEB said:
I can touch on this a bit. You are correct in your assumption that we passed along maps from our various communities, but I can assure you that everything from my end (and from the other CC guys that came from communities I was a member of) saw extensive playtesting. I can't speak for every single member of CC and vouch the same for every single map that was submitted, but I know everyone there took their job very seriously and certainly didn't want to get a reputation built that they were going to get their friend's maps in that didn't deserve to be there.MrBig said:
People were very vocal about maps that were submitted that had flaws and changes were made to remedy them. As you know, we aren't going to catch everything, and Bungie trusted that we were submitting matchmaking quality content. Sure, they ran internal testing on their own time, but the majority of the work needed to be done on our part and Im sure there are cases when things slipped by us. It's a lot more difficult to pick up on these issues with 16 people testing than hundreds of thousands. Yes, they were pushed from various communities and tested extensively there, but even still were talking a couple hundred members here and there.
Another thing to remember is, Bungie always had final say in everything we did and certainly didn't have to consult us on any of their decisions. They could pull maps in wherever they wanted, whether they passed through CC or not, and they could add/reject our maps for whatever reason without having to explain their reasoning. Don't get me wrong, they were very helpful in educating us how we needed to test and review these maps before bringing them over, but they certainly didn't have to walk us step-by-step through each map submission telling us why it would or would not work.
I think the group served it's purpose well. Biased opinion of course... But I think the initial idea was to find a means to bring out some of the various Halo community's maps out of the shadows and into the spotlight for a chance at making the MM rotation. Sure, some weren't what some might consider "the best maps they'd had the pleasure of playing," but a lot came from communities that Bungie probably would've never been able to see without CC.
As far as our future, we're waiting just like you guys are to hear what 343's plans are. I'd love to continue to help and I know everyone else at CC feels the same. I'd imagine we'll hear more once the transition is complete.
GhaleonEB said:
Not me: http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/Default.aspx?player=SenadorKooch
I'd say I'm decent but I am not as good as these other guys. I agree with you that for them its just tough to match them up especially when they are in a party.
Matchmaking seems to work well most of the time when its all randoms. As soon as parties are mixed in it seems to go south. One of the biggest problems to me is guests. I don't care if guests play, in fact they should, but they shouldn't be matched up with my party of 4 or 5. I think guest parties should be matched against other guest parties. I think its safe to assume the vast majority of the time the guests are new or or less frequent players.
Also, I've had similar experiences to Devolution. When I go in alone, Trueskill seems to work great for the other team, but decides to give me lovely teammates.
bobs99 ... said:Im down whenever.
Out of interest has anyone looked at the Reach API stuff? Im sure you would have Fyrewulff, im not brilliant but I know my way around mysql and php and all that kinda stuff, does it work on the same principles? Im guessing it would be totally different and would be far beyond simple mysql queries.I would love to play around with it just to further develop my own knowledge but if its very much its own system I might be better off sticking to the well know commercial languages.
I was all hyped on the API in the beginning and wanted to make a mobile web app for stats. Then Reach Service Record came out for iPhone and it was basically what I wanted so I gave up. I was going to write it in python/django. I may still do it so that when future games come around I'll be familiar with it. Its a good learning piece too since its a fun subject to play with an API. I even got myreach.info for it too. Heh.
HiredN00bs said:
OK dude, this has got to stop. In the beginning I was "on your side" but we've had several rounds of people apologizing and the regulars saying "yes, sorry, everyone's opinion matters", but you continue with these jabs and smart comments. You and Fyrewulff need to reign it back in and be more respectful, IMO. This is an internet forum, people are allowed to complain about the game. Smart ass comments aren't helpful and will just keep the bullshit going. If you are bugged by how others post, be the bigger man. Maybe a "Man, sorry you aren't getting matched up evenly. Let me tell you about it..." instead. Otherwise you are just asking for more "Halo Community Veteran" comments.
This goes for everyone, I don't know why more respectful discussion can't happen.
FyreWulff said:
That animation presentation is stellar. The animations do so much for me. I know its all cosmetic but it just gets me in the game more. I love the detail they put into making the Spartan movements more realistic. Looking back, Halo 3's animations look silly now.
ElRenoRaven
Member
MrBig said:
Wait so now the Banshee is broken too? How is it broken? This is the first I'm hearing that it's broken.
A few thoughts on the Cartographers.MrBig said:
First, I'm sad to see whatever process Bungie had planned for map integration into matchmaking fall through. Remember this, from Urk's inaugural Incompetent Cartographer entry:
Over the course of the next seven or so weeks, Im gonna do just that. Im going to load up Forge World, Im going to use Forge and attempt to build a multiplayer map, and Im going to bug Chad and Carney to give me insider tips to help me through the tough times. When I'm finished, Im going to submit my creation through some of the same channels and mechanisms youll be using post-launch so you can see what the process might be like in Reach. Ready?
Whatever that submission process was the entry point to never materialized. Brian had a plan for jumpstarting community maps into matchmaking. The first part was the Forgetacular contest, and the second part was Community Cartographers. My understanding was both of those were intended to be stop gap solutions until a more systematic approach was ready. But that last part, the one I think Urk was also alluding to, never materialized.
The results from the Forgetacular contest probably shaped the role the Cartographers had. Bungie was clearly taken aback by the volume of maps they got hit with, and by the amount of time it took to evaluate them. Think about what goes into playtesting a map, the time and people involved, and multiply that by hundreds. The delays the Forgetacular results saw were from that enormous resource draw. As an exercise in crowsourcing content, it exposed the need for a filter.
That filter was the Cartographers. We were picked help scout out the most promising maps, in either our judgment the judgment of the community we represented as a whole. Bungie is in tune well enough to know the host of active, focused communities they could engage with and pulled in a few people from many of them. That was the first filter. The second filter was feedback from fellow Cartographers in the private forum.
The last filter was Jeremiah and his test team. And even with all those filters applied, many of the maps that made it in were spotty. I agree that Wayont is a poor map, it's not dynamic or interesting to play on at all. But I'm sympathetic to its inclusion because of what the process entails to build and test a good map.
I know how hard it is to make a good map in Forge. I've used Forge extensively in Reach - hundreds of hours - and I only built out two finished maps. It's really, really freaking hard to make a good one. Beyond getting things like basic assembly right, there are design elements such as sight lines, flow, navigation, base design and weapon placement. Then there is a whole set of other factors. Frame rate issues, spawn placement and influencers, kill zones, game types to set up and configure, etc.
What my experience as a Community Cartographer did was make me realize how hard it is not only to build maps, but to evaluate them. Maps that look promising in screenshots can be horrible to play. Maps that play well in the first test can have huge flaws exposed later. And that's before realizing that 90% of Reach's player base never touches Forge, and for the maps that are built through to completion, 90% of those are just not suitable for matchmaking. So how do you find the ones that are? I think Bungie made a good crack at it with the Cartographers system.
I have some ideas how the Cartographers concept of screening crowdsourced content could be expanded, made more transparent and built into a sustaining mode where the community is engaged in submitting content to a large group for peer review. But no matter the approach, it's going to take tons of manpower and organization, and even then the results won't be universally loved maps.
I hope Halo 4 has more thought and resources put into getting an infrastructure in place around content sharing than Halo Reach had. From little things like being able to show a user-supplied preview picture to custom maps (so they're not all that one Forge World pic) to a more robust process to peer review content, there is some ground work that can be laid to apply some filters before throwing human resources at community map integration. But even then, it's going to take lots of people to find, test and fix maps before bubbling them into matchmaking. There's no easy solution.
(There are a lot of ways Forge can be made much more accessible as functional as a map editor as well, even without reimagining the concept from the ground up, but the more accessible it is, the more content will be generated - which just adds to the need for systematic ways to evaluate it.)
Please tell me you are joking. :lolPsychoRaven said:
It's one of the most universally recognized elements of Reach that need fixing.
I present, Siege Slayer! It is very much a prototype concept.
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1088275
If anyone can manage a 6v6 party and try out this gametype, I'd like to hear feedback.
Also, re: CC, there was testing. Here's a small selection of the testing films that I arranged alone. I don't remember any map that was submitted without at least one film.
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1088275
If anyone can manage a 6v6 party and try out this gametype, I'd like to hear feedback.
Also, re: CC, there was testing. Here's a small selection of the testing films that I arranged alone. I don't remember any map that was submitted without at least one film.
ElRenoRaven
Member
GhaleonEB said:
I'm really not. What am I looking for there? Is it the endless loops he's doing? To me it just looks like someone that is damn good with a Banshee. Any games I've played with it the thing blows up pretty damn fast and is easy to take down. A good laser takes it out in no time flat. Not trying to debate mind you. I'm just curious.
The loops should be draining some energy. But it's not. The fuel rod bomb's radius should be smaller, and have a longer cool-down. I mean otherwise it's not OP - the more serious tone is the Banshee bomb needs nerfed, not the actual Banshee.PsychoRaven said:
In a map like Hemorrhage the Banshee wouldn't last too long or be overly dominant because of the open skies.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Striker said:
Ah. The bomb I've never had a problem with. Maybe I've just been lucky. I don't see how stunts should drain the boost energy though but I guess that wouldn't bother me if it did. If anything I miss the Halo 1 Banshee. I've just never liked how they force you to keep moving in it. In CE you could hover in it. Also I haven't liked the angle limit on it they put in. I should be able to dive straight downward if I want damn it.
Endlessly looping, rolling, boosting Banshee is able to spawn trap a squad of players in their base with the help of a hard push from their team. It's very hard to DMR a Banshee that is behaving like that to begin with, and when the rest of the team is focused on you, a team looking up at the Banshee is a sitting duck. Banshee spawn traps are a regular feature of any map the Banshee is on. I've been in dozens of games that played out like that. I've been in one game where a Bungie designer on Reach got so frustrated with the spawn trap (on Paradiso) they declared the experience to be utter bullshit and quit out.PsychoRaven said:
There is almost no cool down to the manuvers, the FRG round fires rapidly and tracks vehicles, the manuvers do not draw upon the boost meter at all (which recharges while rolling/flipping) and that kind of decimation happens all the time. I think it is a a wildly unbalanced vehicle and unsuited for matchmaking.
I edited to be more specific. I also meant the last line to carry a cheerful, sarcastic tint to it but came accross wrong.PsychoRaven said:
ElRenoRaven
Member
GhaleonEB said:
No I said looking for. And if that's true then I guess it is Broken. Like I said I've been lucky I guess. But yea if that's the case then fix it I say.
*edit*
Ah so it recharges the boost while stunting. Yea ok I can see why that would be considered broken then.
Steelyuhas
Member
GhaleonEB said:
Thats what worries me about this TU. I understand that giving players options to play the game in significantly different ways in segmented playlists is a good idea, and that they don't want to destroy default Reach gameplay for those that like it. Well those of us that are playing Reach know that there are certainly a handful of fixes and improves to the game that really should be made, and they don't make the game any less "Reach", they just make Reach better.
ElRenoRaven
Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
Honestly I don't play any BTB. I am more of a team slayer guy. I do play a decent amount of Invasion here and there too. Usually the falcon takes the banshee out damn fast when I play invasion though thanks to it's ability to hover.
The main problem with it is on maps where there are no Falcons to counter it. There are two Banshees on Renegade (the map from that video) and a neutral one on Utopie. Not sure if they are on any other maps. They've slowly been phased out or replaced with Falcons, which is one of the things that's made BTB better in the past few updates.PsychoRaven said:
I have a somewhat visceral response to mentions of the Banshee, as the singularly most unpleasant experiences I've had in Halo matchmaking have involved Banshee traps. Actually, the worst was the Banshee/Scorpion trap on Paradiso, which thankfully has been altered.
ElRenoRaven
Member
GhaleonEB said:
Understandable. If I had encountered times like that I'd probably hate it with a passion too. It really shows you though that play styles can really color how people see things. It's all in what you've encountered that shapes how you see things.
Isn't the Banshee still on Paradiso? Or did Bungie completely remove Paradiso from MM? I don't think I've played it once since the BTB playlist update.GhaleonEB said:
The Banshee should definitely be updated in the TU. Either decrease the Banshee Bomb's effectiveness or it's aerial techniques. Or both.
RebornYeti
Member
Gabo´s Palace said:
Just posted mine. I'm the guy with the Pilot helmet and Grenade Launcher.
bobs...onGaf
Member
FyreWulff said:
I love the Banshee, I feel as though its not as bad as people here make out, its got great offence but terrible defence. The thing gets ripped apart so quick.
Ive always loved flying the thing around, so maybe im biased.
I really hope they dont just flat out remove the thing though.Also thanks for that link earlier, gonna read through that stuff when I get a chance.
Gabotron ES
Member
Nice <3-Yeti said:Just posted mine. I'm the guy with the Pilot helmet and Grenade Launcher.
I'll release a wallpaper sized version when I finish collecting entries.
Also, it coiud be cool if the GAFers who submitted their entry also tag it "GAF" so I place you folks all together.
Hydranockz
Member
Me and Zalinkrow won a Reach tournament today lol.
<edit> ^ I wonder if you refreshed and when you saw my name as the last post you thought this would be me posting the ADAPTION thingie...
I'm saving it for those moments when someone is asking me to adapt to a dumb aspect of Reach's multiplayer after I complain about said dumb aspect. </edit>
I'm saving it for those moments when someone is asking me to adapt to a dumb aspect of Reach's multiplayer after I complain about said dumb aspect. </edit>
Has it been confirmed there won't be "minor" stuff being tweaked across all playlists? I think he was only referring to the kind of obvious changes that would really piss off the Reach fans like removing AAs (including sprint), improving base mobility speed or removing Reticule Bloom. If these general tweaks are there, he probably avoided mentioning the two tier T.U. for now knowing full well how most of the people on the internet just skim the words in a hurry and not take the time to really get what is being said before exploding into a bitching frenzy. Fission Mailed anyways.. *glances at Bnet*GhaleonEB said:
The main changes will be for the new Classic playlist I imagine. There, hopefully, will be some changes in the other playlists like nerfing the Banshee bomb, reducing the frag's radius, making the DMR 2x zoom, whatever. To expect serious changes across the board for all playlists is simply uninstructed thinking.
Ah gotcha,Letters said:<edit> ^ I wonder if you refreshed and when you saw my name as the last post you thought this would be me posting the ADAPTION thingie...
I'm saving it for those moments when someone is asking me to adapt to a dumb aspect of Reach's multiplayer after I complain about said dumb aspect. </edit>
I saved it also. Thanks for making it.Letters said:<edit> ^ I wonder if you refreshed and when you saw my name as the last post you thought this would be me posting the ADAPTION thingie...
I'm saving it for those moments when someone is asking me to adapt to a dumb aspect of Reach's multiplayer after I complain about said dumb aspect. </edit>
Steelyuhas
Member
Striker said:
I don't think that changing the DMR scope is something you are going to see in the TU. I'm just hoping that although they are saying that options for other playlists are the focus and Reach's default gameplay will remain intact that it doesn't mean that small tweaks that that 'fix' and 'improve' Reach won't be there, because that would be an absolute waste to not improve default Reach when a few small tweaks will improve the game significantly.
Hypertrooper
Member
Because nobody cares: What did you win?Hydranockz said:
Aug 26th-28th.-Yeti said:
RebornYeti
Member
So, when is PAX? And more importantly, when is HaloFest?
Hypertrooper
Member
Don't say that to me. First trip to the USA, Halo 4, Halo: CEA and see some Gaffers and a lot of other Halo Fans in real life. I guess I'm going to explode on my arrival, because of excitement.GhaleonEB said:
Who is playing right now?
Devolution
Member
Hypertrooper said:
I'll be on sometime within the hour, eating chow fun atm.
RebornYeti
Member
Cool, thanks.Hypertrooper said:
Btw, I am on right now. GT is RebornYeti
A27_StarWolf
Banned
Do you think we will see the covenant in Halo 4?
The Librarian
Banned
I just had my most enjoyable BTB game in awhile. Yeah, we lost 3-0, and yeah, half of my team was gone by time the game ended, but at one point I felt my heart drumming and I haven't had that feeling in a long while. Almost forgot about it.
But this game didn't happen in Reach. It was Neutral Assault on Avalanche in Halo 3. There was so much fun chaos happening around the mancannons and around the bases. For example, at one point I was at my team's base getting ready for an incoming Hornet to drop the bomb guy off. Previously, someone had carried the trip mine back to our base, but didn't use it before he died. I picked up, flung it through the mancannon at the right moment, it hit the Hornet, lowered the bomb-carrier's shields, and I got him with the headshot.
The other chaotic moment was when the enemy team drove their Warthog through hour mancannon and landed on top of the bomb-plant spot. I was somehow able to get a splatter in the ensuing battle.
The result that stood out for me the most was driving a Warthog with a gunner and our bomb-carrier through the enemy team's mancannon in the hope to score (this was when it was still 7-8). We didn't succeed, but it was a fun attempt.
But this game didn't happen in Reach. It was Neutral Assault on Avalanche in Halo 3. There was so much fun chaos happening around the mancannons and around the bases. For example, at one point I was at my team's base getting ready for an incoming Hornet to drop the bomb guy off. Previously, someone had carried the trip mine back to our base, but didn't use it before he died. I picked up, flung it through the mancannon at the right moment, it hit the Hornet, lowered the bomb-carrier's shields, and I got him with the headshot.
The other chaotic moment was when the enemy team drove their Warthog through hour mancannon and landed on top of the bomb-plant spot. I was somehow able to get a splatter in the ensuing battle.
The result that stood out for me the most was driving a Warthog with a gunner and our bomb-carrier through the enemy team's mancannon in the hope to score (this was when it was still 7-8). We didn't succeed, but it was a fun attempt.