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[MrA]

That sucks, however the wall collapsed. I'm kinda surprised that he spent 10 years in congress and didn't try to get his dear family members out of there though, it being an "open air prison" and all.

Former GOP/ libertarian Congressman Justin Amash has lost several family members as civilian casualties from an Israeli airstrike

Former Rep. Justin Amash says several relatives killed in Gaza church blast

Amash, who in 2011 became the first Palestinian American to serve in Congress, said in an X post that some of his kinfolk had been sheltering inside the Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church when the ai…

nypost.com

If Israel statement is accurate, they were targeting a near by enemy base, which is believable,
They said there reviewing the incident
If it was a shockwave, its a tragedy, but it still is on Hamas for their violence.
If it was hit directly unitentionally the operators responsible needs to be punished for negligence, (unless it was something like Hamas was literally encamped like right next to it, then Hamas is again using civilians like the scum their are)
Well see if videos come out showing what happened

 

[E-Cat]

If they are firing rockets, yes. It is now a lawful target per law of armed conflict or rules of engagement for modern era military actions. This is similar to how during war, a medic cannot participate in offensive combat maneuvers. The moment they do, they become a lawful target. If a non-military facility such as a hospital is used for something way outside its intended scope, like say, stockpiling munitions intended for offensive measures, it loses protected status.

This is why you do not use human shields in war.

You may not like this answer, but let’s explore your thinking further. If you do not take action because there are civilians present, you can render military action null because all you ever need is some hostages. The opponent can never fight back.

Good point.

Yes, it is. Again, you either destroy the enemy or you let them shoot at you with impunity. It’s shitty in every conceivable way but that is the horrifying reality.

Is there any number of projected civilian casualties that would change this equation for you to where it would become ”unacceptable”? 50x? 100x? 500x? What about if defeating Hamas would require reducing the entire Gaza strip to rubble?

 

[jason10mm]

Let’s say in practice it’s not possible to accurately target Hamas terrorists without considerable civilian losses. Israel runs the numbers and projects roughly 10x civilian deaths from the campaign vs # of dead Israelis from the Hamas attack. Is it still ’justified’?

Yes. Hamas is the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of Gaza. They are a terrorist group, but not like some small rogue actor operating within and mostly against their host country. They ARE THE COUNTRY. It is THEIR CHOICE to place their stockpiles, barracks, offices, and hostages in, around, and under civilian centers, particularly churches, mosques, hospitals, and schools.

Go look at ANY OTHER NATION. How many weapon arsenals, barracks, military motorpools, training centers, operation centers, and barracks do you see intimately intermixed with civilian populations. NONE. Every one else separates their military centers from civilian populations for this very reason. It is a CRIME to use human shields, it is DESPICABLE and IMMORAL. What it is NOT, is illegal to strike a valid military target even if it is within a civilian center if efforts have been made to remove as many civilians as possible. Which Israel has done and continues to do. If Hamas FORCES civilians, against their will, to be human shields, well, that's on Hamas. It's on the fathers and mothers that allowed this cancer to feaster, that allowed Imams to preach hatred, that allowed their sons and daughters to join, that allowed what must have been YEARS of training, stockpiles, integration within civilian sites, movement of hostages, building of tunnels under civilian structures, all that shit.

You see countless pics of Palestinians in Gaza running around with all sorts of weapons, resistance was possible. They could have done something, IF they believed differently. And now they have a choice, GTFO in accordance with Israeli directives, RESIST Hamas if Hamas traps them around Hamas facilities. FREE THE HOSTAGES. They all know where they are, no way to hide that shit, people talk. Surrender their weapons. STOP THE ROCKETS, its killing more Palestinians than Israelis anyway.

Folks need to stop treating Palestinians like they are all little children under the thumb of abusive parents. They have a choice. They know the alternatives, no one in the age of the internet can really claim ignorance of how life could be different. It's gonna be really rough for the Palestinians so long as they let Hamas operate freely. If the civilians collapse into southern Gaza, kick out all the Hamas loyalists to the north, then let Israel get justice, then they will in all likelihood be allowed to CHOOSE to be a world participant. But they gotta take a real hard look at their philosophy, their culture, their "allies" and make a change for themselves.

 

[Meicyn]

Good point.

Is there any number of projected civilian casualties that would change this equation for you to where it would become ”unacceptable”? 50x? 100x? 500x? What about if defeating Hamas would require reducing the entirety of Gaza to rubble?

Yes actually. This is going to be a case by case kind of thing. You can’t assign a number because war doesn’t work that way. Context is everything. The goal is minimal noncombatant casualties, but zero can’t ever be an acceptable decision as a military commander.

I would be extremely reluctant to make the call to bomb a hospital as an example because of obvious reasons. If Hamas were actively firing rockets from one of its rooftops? Now it’s under consideration. I would use the least damaging munition I have to kill anyone on the rooftop while hopefully not penetrating the building itself.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

 

[E-Cat]

Yes. Hamas is the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of Gaza. They are a terrorist group, but not like some small rogue actor operating within and mostly against their host country. They ARE THE COUNTRY. It is THEIR CHOICE to place their stockpiles, barracks, offices, and hostages in, around, and under civilian centers, particularly churches, mosques, hospitals, and schools.

Go look at ANY OTHER NATION. How many weapon arsenals, barracks, military motorpools, training centers, operation centers, and barracks do you see intimately intermixed with civilian populations. NONE. Every one else separates their military centers from civilian populations for this very reason. It is a CRIME to use human shields, it is DESPICABLE and IMMORAL. What it is NOT, is illegal to strike a valid military target even if it is within a civilian center if efforts have been made to remove as many civilians as possible. Which Israel has done and continues to do. If Hamas FORCES civilians, against their will, to be human shields, well, that's on Hamas. It's on the fathers and mothers that allowed this cancer to feaster, that allowed Imams to preach hatred, that allowed their sons and daughters to join, that allowed what must have been YEARS of training, stockpiles, integration within civilian sites, movement of hostages, building of tunnels under civilian structures, all that shit.

You see countless pics of Palestinians in Gaza running around with all sorts of weapons, resistance was possible. They could have done something, IF they believed differently. And now they have a choice, GTFO in accordance with Israeli directives, RESIST Hamas if Hamas traps them around Hamas facilities. FREE THE HOSTAGES. They all know where they are, no way to hide that shit, people talk. Surrender their weapons. STOP THE ROCKETS, its killing more Palestinians than Israelis anyway.

Folks need to stop treating Palestinians like they are all little children under the thumb of abusive parents. They have a choice. They know the alternatives, no one in the age of the internet can really claim ignorance of how life could be different. It's gonna be really rough for the Palestinians so long as they let Hamas operate freely. If the civilians collapse into southern Gaza, kick out all the Hamas loyalists to the north, then let Israel get justice, then they will in all likelihood be allowed to CHOOSE to be a world participant. But they gotta take a real hard look at their philosophy, their culture, their "allies" and make a change for themselves.

When was the last election? It’s not exactly a democracy anymore. Also, they probably face torture or death if they revolt. They still should revolt, but it’s not easy to be brave in that situation — especially if they believe Israel would not agree to a two-state solution no matter what, so it may be in vain.

 

[LordOfChaos]

 

[hyperbertha]

For the purpose of this hypothetical, we will assume Hamas has trapped the civilians in the building with them against their own will.

Perhaps they should. I’m not judging you, btw, just curious to hear your reasoning.

Let’s say in practice it’s not possible to accurately target Hamas terrorists without considerable civilian losses. Israel runs the numbers and projects roughly 10x civilian deaths from the campaign vs # of dead Israelis from the Hamas attack. Is it still ’justified’?

Who is more valuable to idf? Israeli lives or Palestine lives? Why is israel expected to keep casualties on palestine exact same as israel? If one innocent Israeli dies, idf is permitted to go scorched earth.

 

[winjer]

That's like a chihuahua barking at a doberman.

 

[E-Cat]

If one innocent Israeli dies, idf is permitted to go scorched earth.

That’s certainly an extreme position. Is this like a general principle for you, or only applicable to this specific situation?

 

[hyperbertha]

That’s certainly an extreme position. Is this like a general principle for you, or only applicable to this specific situation?

Any country should go scorched earth if an enemy kills a civilian. It is the responsibility of the defense force to ensure another civilian doesn't die. Which means go as far as is needed. In this case, hamas is forcing them to go much further than necessary. They are obligated to do nothing. Israel has shown incredible restraint.

 

[ReBurn]

Why do all of these tweets show a screen that says loading tweet, but they never load? I have to click them to go to twitter and that's first world problem annoying.

Probably an issue caused by your ad blocker. Xenforo embeds get caught by a lot of broad ad blocking tools.

 

[Atrus]

Good point.

Is there any number of projected civilian casualties that would change this equation for you to where it would become ”unacceptable”? 50x? 100x? 500x? What about if defeating Hamas would require reducing the entire Gaza strip to rubble?

It is not incumbent of the victims of genocidal aggression to care for the aggressor more than the aggressors own regime does. Whatever the cost born on their civilian population in this situation, it is the fault of Hamas.

For example, all of Putin’s minions sent into Russia are subject to capital punishment. If Putin empties every adult Russian into Ukraine, it is not the fault of Ukraine that there is no more Russia.

 

[Meicyn]

If one innocent Israeli dies, idf is permitted to go scorched earth.

No, they are not. No nation is.

 

[E-Cat]

Any country should go scorched earth if an enemy kills a civilian. It is the responsibility of the defense force to ensure another civilian doesn't die. Which means go as far as is needed. In this case, hamas is forcing them to go much further than necessary. They are obligated to do nothing. Israel has shown incredible restraint.

If everyone did this, we would’ve had WW3 long ago.

 

[E-Cat]

It is not incumbent of the victims of genocidal aggression to care for the aggressor more than the aggressors own regime does. Whatever the cost born on their civilian population in this situation, it is the fault of Hamas.

For example, all of Putin’s minions sent into Russia are subject to capital punishment. If Putin empties every adult Russian into Ukraine, it is not the fault of Ukraine that there is no more Russia.

They are soldiers, they should indeed be killed.

 

[hyperbertha]

No, they are not. No nation is.

You mean from a moral standpoint or international code of conflict standpoint?

If everyone did this, we would’ve had WW3 long ago.

I doubt it. As far as I'm aware, no other nation uses their own civilians as fodder, which means no other defending state would need to amass civilian casualties as they eliminate opposition.

 

[jason10mm]

When was the last election? It’s not exactly a democracy anymore. Also, they probably face torture or death if they revolt. They still should revolt, but it’s not easy to be brave in that situation — especially if they believe Israel would not agree to a two-state solution no matter what, so it may be in vain.

Well, Israel is pretty clear that they are coming for Hamas, no question. So ALL Palestinians have a choice. Flee, fight (with Hamas), or help the IDF by kicking out Hamas, reporting on their locations, countering Hamas propaganda, and assisting in the minimizing of civilian casualties.

 

[Meicyn]

You mean from a moral standpoint or international code of conflict standpoint?

Both.

 

[hyperbertha]

Both.

I disagree. Israel is justified in destroying hamas going as far as necessary for a single innocent killed. that's the way it is. The alternative is worse - more of their own potentially killed in the future, and in this case, that's exactly what happened. They showed too much restraint in the past, and payed the price.

 

[Jenov]

The projecting of different conflicts onto the Israel/Palestine conflict is....is....I'm just going to say it. Its fucking retarded.

Weak minded and stupid people are linking things together that are not linked. Israel/Palestine is not climate change. Its not civil rights in the U.S. Its not North Ireland. Its not "colonialism."

The other day I read a discord convo of someone trying to frame the conflict as Native Americans (Palestinians) vs colonizing Europeans (Israel), and that the preferred outcome was for Israel to give everything to the “natives” and everyone live in one giant Palestine Big oof on the mental gymnastics and stupidity needed for that one.

 

[Meicyn]

I disagree. Israel is justified in destroying hamas going as far as necessary for a single innocent killed. that's the way it is. The alternative is worse - more of their own potentially killed in the future, and in this case, that's exactly what happened. They showed too much restraint in the past, and payed the price.

Scorched earth as a strategy has been abandoned by modern militaries because such strategy includes the indiscriminate slaughter of human beings. If you do not make a distinction between lawful combatants and noncombatants, you have aligned yourself with the thinking of authoritarian despots.

It is one thing to have clear military targets with understanding that there will be unavoidable noncombatants who are killed in the process. Especially when you are dealing with shitheels like Hamas. Israel is completely justified in taking military action as it has so far. It is another thing entirely to suggest burning everyone and everything, and how casual you are about it. I question your humanity, frankly.

 

[hyperbertha]

Scorched earth as a strategy has been abandoned by modern militaries because such strategy includes the indiscriminate slaughter of human beings. If you do not make a distinction between lawful combatants and noncombatants, you have aligned yourself with the thinking of authoritarian despots.

It is one thing to have clear military targets with understanding that there will be unavoidable noncombatants who are killed in the process. Especially when you are dealing with shitheels like Hamas. Israel is completely justified in taking military action as it has so far. It is another thing entirely to suggest burning everyone and everything, and how casual you are about it. I question your humanity, frankly.

Scorched earth doesn't mean nuking the place to oblivion once a civilian dies. Please read my post again. As far as necessary to ensure no further threats.

 

[Meicyn]

Scorched earth doesn't mean nuking the place to oblivion once a civilian dies. Please read my post again. As far as necessary to ensure no further threats.

I read your post just fine. You said the IDF should go scorched earth. Scorched earth includes indiscriminate slaughter of everything in its path including human beings.

 

[hyperbertha]

I read your post just fine. You said the IDF should go scorched earth. Scorched earth includes indiscriminate slaughter of everything in its path including human beings.

Any country should go scorched earth if an enemy kills a civilian. It is the responsibility of the defense force to ensure another civilian doesn't die. Which means go as far as is needed. In this case, hamas is forcing them to go much further than necessary. They are obligated to do nothing. Israel has shown incredible restraint.

 

[ADiTAR]

You see, it's really about Israel...

 

[Stitch]

 

[ADiTAR]

now this is the cancel culture I like to see

 

[winjer]

You see, it's really about Israel...

Seriously. This is fucked up.
What's next? A cristal night?
And the police and governments in Europe are acting so passively, as if nothing is going on.

 

[ADiTAR]

Seriously. This is fucked up.
What's next? A cristal night?
And the police and governments in Europe are acting so passively, as if nothing is going on.

I hae no idea where tf is the police in this. Also can't imagine how terrified the hotel staffers were.

 

[ADiTAR]

 

[Salty Hippo]

What about a building that has half Hamas members and half civilians? You said ”every drop of blood spilled in this conflict that has started 2 weeks ago is on Hamas' hands.”

I mean, do you think that would be targeting civilians? If you do then I guess there is nothing left to discuss here because you don't seem to understand the difference between targeting civilians and targeting terrorists who use civilians as human shields while doing everything in your power to avoid collateral damage.

I don't know how it wasn't clear before, but I'll stay it again. The blood of the people Hamas hides behind is 100% on Hamas' hands. Thinking otherwise is believing terrorists are entitled to commit inhumane atrocities of any scale and suffer no consequences for them.

 

[Kilau]

I love that when the palestinians voted in hamas, the antisemites kept trying to legitimize the terrorists with “free and fair” election rants and even Jimmy Carter validated the results!

Now that hamas has earned total eradication we are supposed to hold the people in Gaza blameless. Either they’ve been complicit with the terrorists and have enabled them or they’ve also been terrorized and should be pitied. If it’s that former then too bad, if it’s the later then now they can try and flee while Israel takes hamas out.

 

[Jsisto]

As someone of Jewish descent, it’s frankly incredibly insulting to me that any kind of anti war protest or show of support for innocent Palestinian lives is being labeled by many bad faith actors on traditional and social media as antisemitism and hate. Yes, there are also bad people that show up to these things, as always, and they’re focused on and blown up on social media to discredit any other voices. It’s possible to harshly condemn Hamas and their attack, while also thinking that a ground invasion and leveling of Gaza is not the best option morally or pragmatically, without being an antisemite. It’s like common sense and critical thinking goes completely out the window once people get worked up.

 

[jason10mm]

Scorched Earth.....

 

[jason10mm]

...would be COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED by Israel. That they ARE NOT doing it is a testament to their incredible restraint.

I can't think of a SINLE NATION that would do anything less than total war on a neighboring NATION that was so BRUTALLY ATTACKED in such a fashion. No declaration of war, no attempt to limit civilian deaths, SPECIFIC CIVILIAN ATROCITIES, it's just heinous, worse than Pearl Harbor, 9/11, every Viking raid, anything you can really think of. And it was organized, prepared, and conducted by the LEGIT GOVERNMENT of Gaza, not some random rebel tribe of cultists living in the hills with no resources. THIS WAS GAZA, all in, everyone in there had to know someone that was training for, supplying, or preparing for this event, even if they didn't know the day. Every school kid in parts of Gaza probably talked about it, every mother raised their sons to participate, every father placed their families in the line of fire. It's just chilling, sickening, disgusting, and abhorrent on every possible level. A blight on the Earth we will be reeling from for DECADES, if not CENTURIES, from now. It's gonna be talked about in mythology like something out of the days of the Golden Horde, the sweep of the Huns, or the sacking of Rome.

 

[ADiTAR]

As someone of Jewish descent, it’s frankly incredibly insulting to me that any kind of anti war protest or show of support for innocent Palestinian lives is being labeled by many bad faith actors on traditional and social media as antisemitism and hate. Yes, there are also bad people that show up to these things, as always, and they’re focused on and blown up on social media to discredit any other voices. It’s possible to harshly condemn Hamas and their attack, while also thinking that a ground invasion and leveling of Gaza is not the best option morally or pragmatically, without being an antisemite. It’s like common sense and critical thinking goes completely out the window once people get worked up.

What is your moral solution?

 

[Jsisto]

What is your moral solution?

I sure as hell don’t have the answer. Never claimed to, I’m not an expert. I just think it’s pretty low effort to argue that anyone who disagrees with a war in Gaza wants me to be gassed/hates my entire race. That’s the level of discourse I see too often online and it’s pretty simple minded.

 

[ADiTAR]

I sure as hell don’t have the answer. Never claimed to, I’m not an expert. I just think it’s pretty low effort to argue that anyone who disagrees with a war in Gaza wants me to be gassed/hates my entire race. That’s the level of discourse I see too often online and it’s pretty simple minded.

I think you are living under a rock. This isn't about Israel, this is about Jews. They want to kill all the Jews.

I just posted people in Barcelona protesting a Jewish-owned hotel. Why is that?

 

[Jsisto]

I think you are living under a rock. This isn't about Israel, this is about Jews. They want to kill all the Jews.

I just posted people in Barcelona protesting a Jewish-owned hotel. Why is that?

Define “they”. Again, this is a small minority of people acting out that don’t represent the entire anti war/pro Palestinian movement(note how I didn’t say pro Hamas). You’re seeing this reported and shared all over the internet because it’s more sensational. Antisemitism has been around for ages and still is. I’m not ignorant. Conflating everything that isn’t 100% in lockstep alignment with the government of Israel as antisemitism is counterproductive and I think does more damage to the Jewish community than it does help.

 

[FunkMiller]

 

[EviLore]

 

[Faust]

Define “they”. Again, this is a small minority of people acting out that don’t represent the entire anti war/pro Palestinian movement(note how I didn’t say pro Hamas). You’re seeing this reported and shared all over the internet because it’s more sensational. Antisemitism has been around for ages and still is. I’m not ignorant. Conflating everything that isn’t 100% in lockstep alignment with the government of Israel as antisemitism is counterproductive and I think does more damage to the Jewish community than it does help.

A ”small minority of people” who somehow also include most news broadcasters denying that Hamas are terrorists, actively try to push false news that Israel attacked and killed 500 people at a hospital, who freely allow antisemitism on campuses (but don’t you dare use the wrong pronoun, otherwise your career will be over).

To use the langauge often used by these very same people, “Pro Palestine” is just a dog whistle for “pro hamas”. The vast majority of these groups do not want o save civilian lives, they want Intifada. They want the death and obliteration of all hebrews.

 

[ADiTAR]

A ”small minority of people” who somehow also include most news broadcasters denying that Hamas are terrorists, actively try to push false news that Israel attacked and killed 500 people at a hospital, who freely allow antisemitism on campuses (but don’t you dare use the wrong pronoun, otherwise your career will be over).

To use the langauge often used by these very same people, “Pro Palestine” is just a dog whistle for “pro hamas”. The vast majority of these groups do not want o save civilian lives, they want Intifada. They want the death and obliteration of all hebrews.

They are literally calling for it and the annihilation of Israel.

I don't understand why some Jewish people have learned nothing from the Holocaust, of sitting idle by and waiting to be slaughtered. Or worse, morally equating Israel to Palestinians who don't share liberal values, women are second class, LGBTs killed, Jews are are almost non existent in any Muslim country.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I keep hearing this take.
When will people realize that Hamas has close to 80% support from the people in Gaza (?)
When Hamas was busy slaughtering anything in sight during the attack, who do you think raped the children, burned them alive and tortured the bodies? if was the fucking "citizens".

Exactly.

There's a shit load of anti-Israel/pro-Hamas from mobs of people (some of these crowds are est. at 100,000 people) , tweets, students etc...

If all these tons of Muslims around the world are so loving, where's the similar support mobs for pro-Israel and anti-Hamas since Hamas was the one that started it ambushing music goers and neighbourhoods?

Didn't see one mob or counter protest from around the world criticizing Hamas.

 

[wa600]

As someone of Jewish descent, it’s frankly incredibly insulting to me that any kind of anti war protest or show of support for innocent Palestinian lives is being labeled by many bad faith actors on traditional and social media as antisemitism and hate. Yes, there are also bad people that show up to these things, as always, and they’re focused on and blown up on social media to discredit any other voices. It’s possible to harshly condemn Hamas and their attack, while also thinking that a ground invasion and leveling of Gaza is not the best option morally or pragmatically, without being an antisemite. It’s like common sense and critical thinking goes completely out the window once people get worked up.

Its been two weeks. How come until this day I still havent seen a single protest any speaker saying things like "We are for the people of Gaza, but we do not support what Hamas did"? How is this so hard?

Today there was a protest in Duisburg (Germany). The speaker (clearly german) said that "every people has the right to self-defense. Palestine has the right to self-defense. Gaza has the right to self-defense. We are morally on the right side. Media is telling us something about terrorists. But Israel is the terrorist, not any people from Gaza."

Huge cheers btw..
I honestly feel like the huge majority on these protests thinks what happened Saturday two weeks ago was justified.

 

[ADiTAR]

I honestly feel like the huge majority on these protests thinks what happened Saturday two weeks ago was justified.

They tell us they do think it's justified. Believe them.

 

[Guilty_AI]

As someone of Jewish descent, it’s frankly incredibly insulting to me that any kind of anti war protest or show of support for innocent Palestinian lives is being labeled by many bad faith actors on traditional and social media as antisemitism and hate. Yes, there are also bad people that show up to these things, as always, and they’re focused on and blown up on social media to discredit any other voices. It’s possible to harshly condemn Hamas and their attack, while also thinking that a ground invasion and leveling of Gaza is not the best option morally or pragmatically, without being an antisemite. It’s like common sense and critical thinking goes completely out the window once people get worked up.

While i agree with everything you said, many of the people protesting were very vocal on their support for Hamas itself, even going as far as praising the deaths of innocent people they caused. I wish i was making this up.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Its been two weeks. How come until this day I still havent seen a single protest any speaker saying things like "We are for the people of Gaza, but we do not support what Hamas did"? How is this so hard?

Today there was a protest in Duisburg (Germany). The speaker (clearly german) said that "every people has the right to self-defense. Palestine has the right to self-defense. Gaza has the right to self-defense. We are morally on the right side. Media is telling us something about terrorists. But Israel is the terrorist, not any people from Gaza."

Huge cheers btw..
I honestly feel like the huge majority on these protests thinks what happened Saturday two weeks ago was justified.

Because they deep down support Hamas and killing Israel. I have never seen such blatant mobbing where these groups of people outright chant Kill Jews. You'd think in modern day people would be more discreet no matter how sketchy their views are.

But it's in full force for everyone to see. No shame. So it goes to show how much they love it to not be afraid of consequences.

Nobody wants to say Israel has the right to strike back hard at a group of people over a border who want to wipe them out because it looks bad on Gaza people. Typically, the underdog (poorer people) always get some benefit of the doubt because of pity. So if everyone starts saying Gaza people started it first with ambushes with mobs of dopey people cheering it on, it solidifies the alternate view that down and out people arent poor because of external oppressors. They are bottom rung of the ladder because they are idiots through and through.

 

[DrKeo]

Israel isn't going "scorched earth" and there isn't a number of dead civilians which is "enough". This whole meta-commentary is false., this is not some sick payback on the Palestinian people.

How it started
In 2005 Israel left Gaza because it had enough. 20+ years of peace offers, most of them contained at least 97% of the 67' land, and yet time after time the PLO said not. Israel had enough of corrupt Palestinian leadership, so they thought that if they just left them alone, the Palestinians would leave Israel alone. It might not be real peace, but the Palestinians will have their state, Israel will have theirs and the whole thing will be behind us.

So Israel dismantled all of their towns, ethnically cleansed Gaza from Jews, and removed all army presence in the area - full withdrawal. Israel left beautiful empty towns where Palestinians could live, with fields and greenhouses where they could farm. In 2005, the people of Gaza were set free. No blockade, no Israelis, no Jews, no oppression, and a clear-cut border. This plan had a second phase - leaving the West Bank and by doing so, completely disengaging from the Palestinians. Gaza was the test case. And yes, Gaza was free... for about 5 minutes. Their freedom started in September 2005 and ended in January 2006 when they elected Hamas in their first and only election. Hamas attacked Israel over and over again with rockets, as a result, Israel placed a blockade on Gaza, and that's how most of Israel became right-wing leaning. When you give everything and get rockets in return, people's minds change. Israel just gave up on the Palestinians.

Since 2007 Israel tried to manage the Gaza threat from afar. A blockade was placed to prevent weapons from getting in (even though they still go in through the Egyptian border), a wall was built, and the Iron Dome was developed to protect its citizens from rockets. Every once in a while Hamas would kill a few Israelis or fire so many rockets the country became paralyzed, and Israel would start an "operation" that would last a few days or weeks. Hamas would fire rockets, Israel would blow up launchers, and ammunition, Hamas government builds, etc all placed within the civilian population of course. A few Israelis would die, and hundreds of Palestinians would die, and after a few days, a cease-fire would be signed. Palestinians would rebuild, Hamas would re-arme itself, and 2 years later it would happen again. This was the Israeli existence for 15 years, living in a loop with Hamas on the border.

How it's going
After October 7th everything changed. At least 1,500 Hamas terrorists bomb rushed the border - intelligence failed, the army fell, and 1,500 terrorists had the time of their lives for hours on end, having their ways with innocent civilians. The people who live near the border can't go back to their homes knowing that at any point terrorists can rape, kidnap or kill them. Israel's perception of Hamas has changed, it's ISIS now, and how the hell do you live next to that?

So no, there isn't a number of civilians which is "enough", because civilians are not the target. This is not a random "scorched earth" campaign, this war has a goal - destroy Hamas and release the hostages. Without achieving these goals Israel will never stop.

Hamas has over 20K terrorists in their military branch (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades), and thousands more in their government branches. They have whole neighborhoods built just for Hamas members and their families (which you saw flattened), and there are hundreds of government buildings, rocket launchers, ammunition depots, tunnels, bunkers, and so forth; all of them are placed inside cities, neighborhoods, under hospitals, and mosques. If Israel destroys all of them, you will see over 30K dead, more flattened neighborhoods, and unfortunately, collateral damage of hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Doing all of that might seem random without the context, but it is required in order to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas will lie, give false fatality reports (we all saw what happened with the hospital), and will magically transform Hamas members killed into civilians. Their rockets will fail (currently 20% failure rate according to the IDF) killing their own people, ammunition depots under buildings will explode, and the usual Hamas PR campaign will wage for months. All of that while their leaders are smoking cigars in Qatar. This war will wage for months, if not over a year, but hopefully Hamas will be (virtually) gone when it ends.

And you know what? As much as Israel has been suffering at the hands of Hamas, Palestinian citizens have been suffering too. Years of living in fear, crushed by the boot of Hamas, used as human shields, and their supplies stolen in order to build tunnels and rockets. In the coming war a lot of Palestinians will die, but unlike all the other "operations", when it ends the people of Gaza will actually have hope. Israel is ripping the bandaid and it hurts, but after it comes off Gaza will have a (second) chance to heal.