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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
- Thread starter ADiTAR
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Liljagare
Member
It is both sad and scary, we all know what happens next. Wrong guy with the wrong group gets elected, and off we go again.
But, it's not about the police or governments, the people need to standup and demand change.
All over the globe really, it is the only thing that will drive change.
The enemy to us all always go out en masse to support their shit, you rarely see the other side go out in the same manner.
ClanOfNone
Member
One of my grandfathers served in the Airforce during WWII. He was a meteorologist, in the rear with the gear, but he went through a lot of Germany at the war's end. The horror stories that he shared have stuck with me my whole life. Ol Gramps just passed not too long ago, at the ripe old age of 95, I'm glad he was not alive to see this.
Less than a century after the Jews were led to the slaughter; burned, gassed, shot, and worse, to the tune of over 6 million people (millions!!) we have people on free soil calling for the same thing. It sickens and shames me in ways I didn't even know were possible.
The line between "moderate" Muslims and "radical" Muslims has gotten so blurry I'm starting to wonder if it was ever there in the first place.
Mikado
Member
It's becoming increasing clear that they don't actually love Palestine; they just hate Israel.
Jsisto
Member
Yea fuck them. They deserve all the scorn and hate. They were antisemites before the attack and they’re antisemites after. I stand by my belief that it’s this extreme vocal group that’s being given the megaphone of the internet and is drowning out any common sense debate that can be had. I can easily find numerous progressive/independent/mainstream media outlets that condemn Hamas. It’s not this huge anti Israel shift in media that people are claiming. Are there more pro Hamas sentiments than I’d like? Absolutely. But again, all I’m criticizing is this tendency to label anything shy of complete support for anything Israel does, ever, antisemitism. To me, that’s such a lazy tactic, discredits the real criticisms against REAL antisemites, and is not much different than the oppression olympic mindset that so many of us cant stand.
ManaByte
Member
That cancel culture boomerang sure hurts when it smacks you in the face, doesn’t it?
You're not criticizing Israel tho, you don't know what you're asking it to do. We just had 1,400+ people tortured, mutilated, burned alive, beheaded, shot, butchered, raped so bad their pelvis broke, and slaughtered. And what are we suppose to do? feel sorry for the Palestinians? Fuck that.
We gave them more than a week to clear the fuck out of Northern Gaza, everything that happens now is on Hamas. The Palestinians are not the victims in this. FUCK THAT.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Pretty much.
When you got Gaza schools teaching kids in grad school to hate and kill Jews, youre going to get shitloads of brainwashed nitwits.
Supposedly going into the recent event, the unemployment rate is somewhere between 40-50% pending which site you read. Thats insane. You got half the working age people not even working, so what they do all day is spend their time hating Jews and listening to propaganda all day. End result is Jews and the west are oppressors when the ball and chain slave masters are Hamas themselves keeping the populace down from kindergarten age.
Crazy.
For any country or region to succeed, you dont need the most land. Nor do you need a ton of natural resources to get a fast start. You need good government and a population who wants to succeed. Set aside all the religion and propaganda BS and just strive for the almighty dollar. Money doesnt solve everything in life, but when you got a half decent job to pay the bills and buy nice stuff it sure helps make life easier and fun.
That land is called Israel.
This was never about Israel. RIP.
LordOfChaos
Member
A much more aggressive follow up leaflet
This is where the whole "progressive" Muslim mayor fails. He could be the voice needed to shut these down.
Jihad means peace, its pronounces are kill/killa.
Tomeru
Member
ChuckeRearmed
Member
And Nazi Germany did not represent the entire anti-jewish movement /s I wonder if you tune changes if they come after you.
Still it shows us a clear picture how the Third Reich time happened in Germany - we are literally living through the time when chanting to obliterate jews is ok and supported by the media.
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LordOfChaos
Member
Shit
Kittehkraken
Member
I can guarantee you those Metropolitan Police personnel wouldn't feel the same way if a group of people started yelling "Jihad!" on a plane at 30,000ft.
E-Cat
Member
That's just semantics. Effectively, it's killing civilians. Whether or not that's justified, and in what quantity, I haven't stated a position on it yet. But, clearly, there must be some limits to the scale of the response. What those limits actually are is a thornier question.
Salty Hippo
Member
What is your basis to say that this is a "small minority"? Where is the big majority and what are they saying? How many of this supposedly peaceful big majority are out there in public or even in social media expressing their peacefulness compared to the small minority?
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gothmog
Gold Member
Found dead is a really weird way to say murdered.
I just hope there was a pile of shell casings around her and blood trails leading away.
2A is gonna get a REAL boost from this, me'thinks. Reminds me to throw a few bucks to the JPFO (https://jpfo.org/), it's been a while.
Salty Hippo
Member
True. Where we disagree is on who are the perpetrators of the killing, apparently. You think it's semantics that should be brushed aside. I think it matters.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
E-Cat
Member
I am not comfortable with that line of thought. It opens up a whole can of worms, because you're making an absolute statement. But it's not absolute, I can easily come up with exceptions to the 'rule'.
For example, let's say it was completely impossible to differentiate between Hamas terrorists and civilians in the Palestinian population; if Israel thought the only way to get Hamas was to nuke Palestine (ignore stuff like radiation fallout to the surrounding countries for a moment), would that blood still be on Hamas' hands? To me, Israel would be culpable for the dead civilians in that situation.
DrKeo
Member
There is no "scale" to the response, it's not about numbers. This is about wiping out Hamas and dematerializing Gaza. Israelis can't accept the current state in which in any given time thousands of terrorists can bomb-rush them and commit atrocities. "Israel has a right to defend itself" became an empty slogan over the years. But now it's actually true, there is a real threat and the Israeli public will not accept a terror state on its borders anymore.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
In war there's always innocent human casualties. It's not realistic for any side to meticulously fight the other side trying to vet each person as friend or foe before shooting. Thats just how wars work. And usually one side does it more than the other trying to blend in with commoners.
It's like WWII and every country was kicking the shit out of every other country including non-military people. That being said every country involved would be liable because a lot of those fights were in cities where people were dug in along side soldiers.
If Hamas supporters dont like Israel going hard, then just go mano-a-mano where two sides of military people fight each other in the open. Like in those old trench wars or civil wars where both sides can see each other in groups and duke it out in a war of attrition. No civilians are nearby. Last side standing wins.
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E-Cat
Member
I'm making the case that there is an "acceptable" scale and a "non-acceptable" scale using extreme examples. I'm not claiming to know what the right scale is.
I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself.
But this is on a whole another scale where the enemy is practically invisible. I don't think many armies have fought an enemy so cowardly as Hamas.
The bombings of London, Dresden, Tokyo, etc., were a fucked up thing to do, indeed. War is hell.
Not a realistic option, unfortunately.
Salty Hippo
Member
You are comfortable with Hamas doing what they did, hiding behind civilians and then getting an eternal cease-fire out of it though? While continuing to fire rockets at Israel.
It's either that or you're just trying to escape reality with an utopian scenario where everyone on Earth is peaceful and anything can be resolved permanently by sitting down and having a few beers, like the deluded president of my own country has said about a certain other conflict.
E-Cat
Member
No, I'm not fucking comfortable with that.
I'm not trying to escape reality. Realistically, this conflict will go on forever. I see no good options.
Boozeroony
Gold Member
Imagine what would happen if an imam was 'found dead'.
DrKeo
Member
What's happening right now might make a huge change to the Israeli/Palestinian dynamic. With all the horrors that already happened, and the horrors to come, there might be hope coming out of this.
Yes.
How many American civilians did the Japanese kill before they took 2 nukes? Are you even remotely aware of what a WW2 bombing campaign looks like and the 'civilian' casualties it produces? Have you read even a SINGLE ACCOUNT of any military campaign, EVER, where no civilian was hurt?
Deliberately, savagely, torture of civilians as a POINT OF DOCTRINE IN TRAINING (the manuals describing how to ravage civilians are out there), perpetuated BY A GOVERNMENT MILITARY FORCE with no evidence of surrender, is ABSOLUTELY meeting any and all criteria for an OVERWHELMING RESPONSE. What Hamas did is so far out in the extremes of conduct of a government operation that it should almost be treasonous to do anything but condemn them unequivocally. It would be as if the Mexican government sent in 2-3 battalions of troops to massacre, rape, and torture a half dozen border towns of the US, run back across the border with a few hundred kidnapped civilians, and then hide in schools, launching rockets all the while, daring the US do strike back. How long until the US just says "F it" and glasses a 100 mile buffer zone between the US and the new mexican border while rendering Mexico incapable of doing anything more advanced than a smoke signal? What would Germany do if Austria did this to them? If Pakistan did it to India? NO COUNTRY ON EARTH that has the ability to strike back would tolerate such a heinous, venomous, abhorrent crime. That Gaza, and by extension ANY PALESTINIAN that didn't IMMEDIATELY and REPEATEDLY denounce the atrocity while blaming only themselves for allowing it to happen is just stark evidence of what Israel and all Jews have to face in the coming months to years.
Hamas opened that can of worms. Deliberately. Intentionally. Maliciously. They KNOW their own people are gonna suffer on a level that maybe only the Carthaginians could relate to when Rome showed up in all their might. They hope this will trigger a Middle East war that ends with every Jew dead, fled, or captive in a life of torment.
E-Cat
Member
Okay.
I dunno, you seem pretty chill with governments targeting civilians for torture as policy. I recommend you go home, look at your family, and think about how you would respond if the governing body of the town next to you drafted a plan, got a bunch of townsfolk to agree to participate, and then spent a few years rehearsing how to kick down your door and rape, torture, murder, and abduct all of them. What response would be appropriate?
PonyStation4
Member
Your USE of CAPITALIZATION really HELPED me UNDERSTAND your POST
I write to the intelligence level of my audience. Sometimes you gotta shout it from the mountaintop
E-Cat
Member
I was agreeing with you. It was like, "okay... I can see how a strong response is warranted". I think there's still a discussion to be had on the scale, but I don't profess to know the answer.
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The options are:
1) Abandon Israel and start over, await the next pogrom under someone else’s authority
2) Stop defending themselves, open the borders, and await extermination by Jihadists
3) Pretend the Hamas Massacre didn’t happen despite everyone in the country being directly affected, carry on as normal
4) Go to war with Hamas and destroy them while minimizing civilian loss of life, restructure Gaza to prevent the government from freely radicalizing the population in perpetuity
5) Genocide everyone in enemy territory
The Arab world prefers 1 or 2.
3 is impossible and would result in the government collapsing and being replaced with hardliners who would carry out something more resembling 5.
4 is a justified response that will ensure Israel’s security and gives the best chance to Palestinian civilians long-term.
5 is what the Arab world claims is already happening (it’s not).
There’s only one reasonable choice here.
1) Abandon Israel and start over, await the next pogrom under someone else’s authority
2) Stop defending themselves, open the borders, and await extermination by Jihadists
3) Pretend the Hamas Massacre didn’t happen despite everyone in the country being directly affected, carry on as normal
4) Go to war with Hamas and destroy them while minimizing civilian loss of life, restructure Gaza to prevent the government from freely radicalizing the population in perpetuity
5) Genocide everyone in enemy territory
The Arab world prefers 1 or 2.
3 is impossible and would result in the government collapsing and being replaced with hardliners who would carry out something more resembling 5.
4 is a justified response that will ensure Israel’s security and gives the best chance to Palestinian civilians long-term.
5 is what the Arab world claims is already happening (it’s not).
There’s only one reasonable choice here.
Banjo64
cumsessed
Holy fuck the met are actually fuckin mongs.
Whoops, best be careful. No doubt they’ll pursue prosecution against me due to the demographic I belong to.
Salty Hippo
Member
I don't think the discussion here is really about guessing what will happen, but more about what should happen. If any country needs to wipe out its aggressors so that aggression stops, it is what it is. It's simple reality of war, and Israel arguably does it in a more principled way than any other example I can find in any conflict in history, although I'm no expert.
If the palestinian bureaucrats had accepted any of the multiple two-state solutions proposed over the last almost century and lived in peace ever since, none of this shit would have been a problem today. But their hatred of jews has always gotten the best of them, which in turn has always made Israel respond in kind.
I apologize for the off-topic but your username rocks
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Happosai
Hold onto your panties
1 & 2 options are also really what people are saying/asking when they demand IDF ceasefire and pull out. I'd say 4 is the most reasonable. However, if this becomes more of a multi national event with Yemen, Iran, Lebanon etc etc...I wouldn't rule out 5. Especially if allied forces get involved. I have this awful gut feeling that the attacks (Hamas global) are just starting.
Whoops, forgot 3. No way. That'd only make it easier for high level 'free Palestine' people to pressure the U.N.
Israel will not...cannot be overtaken again.
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E-Cat
Member
I think take care of Hamas as best as you can, then propose a two-state solution in good faith, get it done, should stop radicalizing Palestinians for the most part. Continue guarding your borders like a hawk even after.
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Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Two state is out of the question. It should have never been offered in the first place.
E-Cat
Member
What do you make of this?
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said." -- seemingly with the goal of strengthening Hamas just enough to drive a rift between Hamas and PA, and then stating Palestinian Authority doesn’t represent all the Palestinians to shoot down two-state solution talks. Is it true that Israel has refused to begin talks on this account of 'non-unity' among the Palestinians?
Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided
“Now that we are supervising, we know it’s going to humanitarian causes,” the source said, paraphrasing Netanyahu.
www.jpost.com
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